Vox: Kansas Republicans end the state’s failed tax-reform experiment

MTAtech said:

Kansas Republicans end the state’s failed tax-reform experiment


Brownback literally described his plan as an "experiment." Now that it failed, will he change his view that tax-cuts are the magic elixir to economic prosperity? Do pigs fly?

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I am not at all surprised by what what happened in Kansas. It's really unfortunate Brownback and his state were smart enough to see what was coming.

Fenton said:

If we're going to stick to these meme of Red vs Blue than you cant just leave California out of the debate.

It not only has 1/3 of the Nations welfare recipients and 50 percent on all Children living in California on welare, its also broke

California like to ( lie ) project budget surpluses and then come back later with a big...." OOOPS " sorry guys, we didnt carry the 1...( 1.9 Billion )
https://www.google.com/amp/www.merc...or-adds-to-california-deficit-projection/amp/

Browns has done this twice by the way. You cant claim Cali and Illinois are the examples every State needs to follow with regards to tax policy and continue to ignore the obvious, theyre pretty much bankrupt.

You'll get called out on it by a clever Conservative...like me

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I am not leaving California out of the debate. California has more welfare recipients YET still has an economy that sends more back to the federal government than they receive. Meanwhile red states have tons of people on welfare, less education, more poverty AND STILL get more money back from the federal government than they send in taxes...

Pretty easy for the red states to make their state books look good when they can rely on big daddy federal government to fill their coffers. Meanwhile while providing economies with more poverty, less safety nets, worse healthcare, and terrible education.


Unlike California that provides a better economy, has more personal income, better education, more safety nets, and also has the drain of giving more money to the federal government than they get back.

Californias economy is on fire. Their budget projected woes are do more to expiring tax provisions that will lower their tax rates. and in reliance on personal income taxes which are more volatile rather than property taxes. At the end of the day Fenton..The state of California is one of the states that in the best situations economically. AND WITHOUT the help of the federal government.

Fenton said:

" Complete budgetary ruin " ? Without dishonest hyperbole you people wouldnt have anything to complain about.

I dont have to resort to hyperbole and lies.
Like when I said Liberals in California have a real problem with basic math
https://www.google.com/amp/www.mercu...rojection/amp/

I bet the Conservtives in Kansas can at least add and subtract. The Conservatives in Texas sure can

Or Illinois' bankruptcy ...
https://www.google.com/amp/www.chica...story,amp.html

Lol....its just all bad for these tax and spend Liberal States

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Your obsession with smearing California against Texas is hilarious because you couldn't be more wrong about the economic health of California. Julian Castro is quoted here saying that California is besting Texas in job creation and economic growth, and Politifact confirms that statement to be true. But, by all means, feel free to search for articles that serve as confirmation bias.

Fiscal policy doesn't equal causation for growth. It's just fun to prod people who believe low taxes are the holy grail of economic success by pointing out what a failure the Kansas experiment was. Here's the thing about economics, it's nuanced, it defies infallible rules, unlike most sciences. How's a 'failed Liberal agenda' working out for Sweden? Higher than avg GDP growth than the U.S., and they collect like 40% of GDP in Federal receipts. According to supply siders, the government scooping out 40% of GDP should be crippling private industry and absolutely mortifying business. Except that's not happening. Sweden is the best country to do business in according to Forbes

Would you like to compare Sweden to TX? If you knew what you were talking about, Sweden would not be performing above all expectations, while providing outstanding services for their citizens including universal healthcare, education, PTO, and paid childcare. Sweden hit 4% growth in 2015. So, you see it's easy to find a counter example, and when you make statements like "failed tax and spend liberal agenda", they can easily be disarmed in a few clicks.

Winston said:

Your obsession with smearing California against Texas is hilarious because you couldn't be more wrong about the economic health of California. Julian Castro is quoted here saying that California is besting Texas in job creation and economic growth, and Politifact confirms that statement to be true. But, by all means, feel free to search for articles that serve as confirmation bias.

Fiscal policy doesn't equal causation for growth. It's just fun to prod people who believe low taxes are the holy grail of economic success by pointing out what a failure the Kansas experiment was. Here's the thing about economics, it's nuanced, it defies infallible rules, unlike most sciences. How's a 'failed Liberal agenda' working out for Sweden? Higher than avg GDP growth than the U.S., and they collect like 40% of GDP in Federal receipts. According to supply siders, the government scooping out 40% of GDP should be crippling private industry and absolutely mortifying business. Except that's not happening. Sweden is the best country to do business in according to Forbes

Would you like to compare Sweden to TX? If you knew what you were talking about, Sweden would not be performing above all expectations, while providing outstanding services for their citizens including universal healthcare, education, PTO, and paid childcare. Sweden hit 4% growth in 2015. So, you see it's easy to find a counter example, and when you make statements like "failed tax and spend liberal agenda", they can easily be disarmed in a few clicks.

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California lost 9000 Bussinesses, HQs and expansions since 2008, most to Texas..
https://www.google.com/search?q=900...ile-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#xxri=2

Didnt have to search that hard for that one....

California has the highest child poverty rate in the Nation
https://www.google.com/search?q=900...ile-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#xxri=2

California recsinds budget surplus projections after a 1.9 Billion dollar accounting error...
https://www.google.com/amp/www.merc...or-adds-to-california-deficit-projection/amp/

Texas 10 billion dollar budget surplus grows...
https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2016/september/rainy-day.php

Julian Castro ? Lol ! California has some serious fiscal issues it needs to get a handle on before it compares itself to any State let alone Texas.

Problem is thats not going to happen with Liberals running the show.
Liberals put their ideology over all else and will drive a City, State or Nation into the ground before admitting it is their tax and spend policies that are to blame....
See Detroit...or hell, Illinois for that matter

Thats why Conservatives like me need to inform as many people as possible just how toxic Progressive policies can be when applied.

Winston said:

Your obsession with smearing California against Texas is hilarious because you couldn't be more wrong about the economic health of California. Julian Castro is quoted here saying that California is besting Texas in job creation and economic growth, and Politifact confirms that statement to be true. But, by all means, feel free to search for articles that serve as confirmation bias.

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.....

Fenton said:

California lost 9000 Bussinesses, HQs and expansions since 2008, most to Texas..
https://www.google.com/search?q=900...ile-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#xxri=2

Didnt have to search that hard for that one....

California has the highest child poverty rate in the Nation
https://www.google.com/search?q=900...ile-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#xxri=2

California recsinds budget surplus projections after a 1.9 Billion dollar accounting error...
https://www.google.com/amp/www.merc...or-adds-to-california-deficit-projection/amp/

Texas 10 billion dollar budget surplus grows...
https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2016/september/rainy-day.php

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.....

SheWolf said:

I am not at all surprised by what what happened in Kansas. It's really unfortunate Brownback and his state were smart enough to see what was coming.

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I bet they're scouring the state for Democrats to blame it on.

Fenton said:

" Complete budgetary ruin " ? Without dishonest hyperbole you people wouldnt have anything to complain about.

I dont have to resort to hyperbole and lies.
Like when I said Liberals in California have a real problem with basic math
https://www.google.com/amp/www.merc...or-adds-to-california-deficit-projection/amp/

I bet the Conservtives in Kansas can at least add and subtract. The Conservatives in Texas sure can

Or Illinois' bankruptcy ...
https://www.google.com/amp/www.chic...ing-bankrupt-illinois-20170615-story,amp.html

Lol....its just all bad for these tax and spend Liberal States

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It's amazing you're in a thread about Kansas and will talk about ANYTHING but.....Kansas!

BTW, it is awful that California has an unemployment rate of 4.7%. BAD!! They need to look at Texas with their 4.8% unemployment rate which is SOOOO much better!!

Fenton said:

Problem is thats not going to happen with Liberals running the show.
Liberals put their ideology over all else and will drive a City, State or Nation into the ground before admitting it is their tax and spend policies that are to blame....
See Detroit...or hell, Illinois for that matter

Thats why Conservatives like me need to inform as many people as possible just how toxic Progressive policies can be when applied.

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BTW, Laffer and Moore can't even admit they ****ed Kansas up.


Kansas? Tax Cut Experience Refutes Economic Growth Predictions of Trump Tax Advisors | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

Faced with these facts, Stephen Moore has:

Doubled-down on his tax policy recommendations. “Our advice to Brownback is full speed on the tax cuts,” including additional, deep rate cuts scheduled for future years

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So, I don't know if you just misspoke or, if you carelessly erred. But, in the real world, prideful conservatives would rather drive a state into ruin, than admit to their critics, that they should raise taxes. Brownback stubbornly vetoed all tax increases, coincidentally he has one of the lowest approval ratings of any politician. So, hmm.. That's odd, you say liberals are ideology over all else.. we have direct evidence, it's conservative fiscal policy or else... even in the face of negative consequences. It's odd that you seem to indicate otherwise.. was that you.. dare I say.. projecting conservative shortcomings onto liberals?

MTAtech said:

Unless tax rates are raised to extreme levels, tax increases will result in more revenue. The idea that if we raise taxes on the rich by a few percent the rich will go Galt and stop trying to earn money, is an Ayn Rand fantasy.

as for cutting expenses, what is government spending money on, in any sizable amount, that would make a difference cutting? There is an editorial in today's Times about a Trump cutting the budget of inspector generals, whose efforts bring in 14x the amount of their budget.

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This is fantasy as well. Look at SCHIP program and how it's funded. SCHIP requires there to be smokers. Uncle Sam funds SCHIP by Tobacco taxes. As Tobacco use goes down, SCHIP has a larger underfunded liability each year.

It also applies to State taxes on Tobacco. NY has the highest tax on Tobacco.. and really go after people for it. Ask Eric Garner. They've also created illegal trade of Tobacco between VA and many Northeast states resulting in lost tax revenue.

MTAtech said:

To correct your diatribe, most of those that get said benefits are either working poor; disabled or seniors. Your image of the the fat person of color sitting on the couch drinking beer while collecting a welfare check is essentially fiction in the real world.

In addition, the super rich don't live in a vacuum. They depend upon a network that included schools that educate workers; roads; defense of the nation; a police system; a fair judicial system, etc. That costs money. They are also the best in a position to pay the taxes necessary.

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And now to correct yours..

Rich don't live in a vacuum either. Rich pay the majority of taxes for those things. In fact, go to any rich community any those communities are some of the best schools, police and fire in the country. Problem you don't understand is it's impossible to say it's lack of funding that is a problem.. A New Albany, Pickerington, Dublin and Grandview Ohio community is "rich areas", while Columbus isn't known for it's rich areas. So funding is broadly gained. Columbus doesn't have a funding problem. Columbus spend $1.4b a year on public school. Yet they have one of the worst graduation rates and testing scores in the Columbus area.

Reality is, more money doesn't mean better results when it comes to Schooling.

Kansas' Tax Cut Experiment Was A Predictable Failure - Hit & Run : Reason.com

As I said before, Kansas has problems because they didnt go far enough. They cut taxes, but didnt eliminate deductions. And they have yet to reform spending.

What went wrong? First, the legislature failed to eliminate politically popular exemptions and deductions, making the initial revenue drop more severe than the governor planned. The legislature and the governor could have reduced government spending to offset the decrease in revenue, but they also failed on that front. Government spending per capita remained relatively stable in the years following the recession to the present, despite the constant fiscal crises. In fact, state expenditure reports from the National Association of State Budget Officers show that total state expenditures in Kansas increased every year except 2013, where expenditures decreased a modest 3 percent from 2012. It should then not come as a surprise that the state faced large budget gaps year after year.

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But we'll see if tax and spend works better. If Kansans want progressive taxes and wealth redistribution, then they should get it.

MTAtech said:

Kansas Republicans end the state’s failed tax-reform experiment


Brownback literally described his plan as an "experiment." Now that it failed, will he change his view that tax-cuts are the magic elixir to economic prosperity? Do pigs fly?

Click to expand...

The dichotomy of pure capitalism vs. pure communism, something which was supposedly irreconcilable, is a very 19th century dichotomy. It's so 19th century. As experience over the ensuing century has shown, and continues to show, is that neither one is functional if left pure and completely untempered. It's like many other things in life: how much to work vs. how much time to spend with your family, doing work you love vs. work that pays well, marrying someone you love vs. someone who is stable and reliable, etc... These are all dichotomies for which a perfect, uncompromised answer is not achievable, even in principle. You have to compromise between the two ideals sometimes to achieve the best outcomes. These outcomes are not going to be perfect, of course, and will require constant renegotiation and juggling and compromise, given the particular circumstances and situations you are facing. But it's better than sticking blindly to one or the other extreme ideology.

That's why most developed functional economies in the world today are some uneasy compromise between these two traditionally diametrically opposed paradigms. There may not be a perfect answer. But there are better and worse ways of juggling them given the contingencies of any particular situation. It requires us to not stick blindly to ideology, but to open our eyes, ears, and brains. Be on the lookout for who is getting hurt and why Who is exploiting whom and why. We need to leave room to look at all the messy and contingent details of the particular circumstances we find ourselves in, to keep our brains open to new ideas, to listening carefully to others, to leave room for learning more, for careful and considered judgment, etc...

This blind and closed-minded sticking to ideology in the face of the complexity of life has got to stop. Life is messy. It can't often be boiled down to simple formulas that should work everywhere, for all people, at all times. It requires a little more judgment and sophistication than that.

"I am not for big government. I am not for small government. I am for smart government."
-Barack Obama

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