Vox: Kansas Republicans end the state’s failed tax-reform experiment

Kind of funny watching the Trump supporters, who swear they voted for Trump because he is an 'anti-elitist' and they were tired of the establishment GOP kissing the asses of the rich and elitist..... Then they come here almost daily to defend the establishment GOP agenda which is an agenda by and 100% for the elitists and rich.

SenorXm/Sirius said:

Kind of funny watching the Trump supporters, who swear they voted for Trump because he is an 'anti-elitist' and they were tired of the establishment GOP kissing the asses of the rich and elitist..... Then they come here almost daily to defend the establishment GOP agenda which is an agenda by and 100% for the elitists and rich.

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I agree that there is a major disconnect. However, it's sad and not funny. Like Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown's foot, the GOP has repeatedly and successfully constructed a false narrative that somehow they're the party of the working class, when GOP policies clearly favor the rich -- even at the expense of cutting 20+ million people off of health insurance; slashing the social safety net -- which includes unemployment insurance; cutting Medicare and Social Security, etc.

MTAtech said:

Kansas Republicans end the state’s failed tax-reform experiment


Brownback literally described his plan as an "experiment." Now that it failed, will he change his view that tax-cuts are the magic elixir to economic prosperity? Do pigs fly?

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I really think that we should just get out of the way of the GOP and let Trump do everything that Trump promised to do in his campaign. Middle America screamed itself hoarse cheering him on to do it. Abolish Obamacare! And what's all this crazy talk of a replacement plan? Any government intervention in healthcare is, after all, unconstitutional, right? Leave it to the free market, it's the American way! And wage those trade wars: wage them! Protect the American worker! Wage those trade wars, with China, Mexico, Canada, the EU, and whoever else he promised. Get rid of green energy research. Let's go back to those coal powered steam engines, even as the rest of the world is moving on. That will surely make America Great Again, and keep those jobs here! And get rid of those stifling factory emission regulations into the air and rivers of small town America. Get rid of the public schools! They are socialism and that's why they are not working, right?

Donald Trump is like someone who has promised he will get in a car and run down middle America as a campaign promise. And middle America has screamed itself hoarse cheering him on to do it. They have fueled up the car and given him the keys. The only thing which has mitigated the sheer maliciousness of his agenda is his abject ignorance, incompetence, and stupidity. He has gotten in the car, aimed at them, but then crashed it to the right. He has put it in reverse, revved up the car again, and then proceeded to crash it to the left. Then to the right again. Now he is going around in circles. Now he accidentally just forgot and kept it in reverse, backing up the car into the wall behind him. We liberals have tried to stop him, but we have become a subject of their anger. They are telling us we are keeping them from doing what the American voter wants. So it almost makes you want to get in the side seat with him, and help him go exactly where he, and his intended victims, want to go. We will not get rid of this Fox News nonsense until they are allowed to accomplish exactly everything they want to do, and then have to deal with their consequences.

Once Trump has run over middle America and put it in the hospital, we can then go visit them and talk about what they want to do next. Until then, they are crazed with excitement over this and are absolutely deaf to any voice of reason.

Democracy is the theory that the common man knows what's best for him, and deserves to get it good and hard.
_HL Mencken

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ttwtt78640 said:

The IRS wins about 1/3 of any big lotto prize without need to contribute to the lotto prize pot - isn't that a bit "socialist"?

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And billionaires pay the majority of federal income taxes, millions of dollars per year per uber rich. So, no need to make them pay more when they are already paying millions per year and the huge majority of the taxes. Same thing.

MTAtech said:

First, don't pretend to know what I want. What I want is more of what we already have, a capitalist country in which the economic winners are taxed heavier to pay for those who have too little and also are taxed to reduce income inequality, that hampers the success of the country as a whole. That system is far superior to the tooth in claw free market that existed before the New Deal.

Second, the real issue is how much should the rich pay in taxes? The economic question is how high can you tax the rich before it results in lower revenues? Economists have studied this and the rate is somewhat north of 80% -- more than twice the top bracket in the U.S. Therefore, there is plenty of room to raise taxes before it discourages work or investment.

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You've already got what you want! The uber rich pay the huge majority of federal income taxes.

calamity said:

We do live in a society which requires some social responsibility. I'm getting a bit sick of all the "fend for yourself" morons out there who ignore the fact that they benefit from the social contract too.

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Oh, I see. The super wealthy should be socially responsible (even though they pay the huge majority of federal income taxes) but the able bodied poor who would rather collect benefits than work and who would rather have kid after kid after kid when they can't even take care of themselves don't have to be socially responsible. Got it.

ataraxia said:

I really think that we should just get out of the way of the GOP and let Trump do everything that Trump promised to do in his campaign. Middle America screamed itself hoarse cheering him on to do it. Abolish Obamacare! And what's all this crazy talk of a replacement plan? Any government intervention in healthcare is, after all, unconstitutional, right? Leave it to the free market, it's the American way! And wage those trade wars: wage them! Protect the American worker! Wage those trade wars, with China, Mexico, Canada, the EU, and whoever else he promised. Get rid of green energy research. Let's go back to those coal powered steam engines, even as the rest of the world is moving on. That will surely make America Great Again, and keep those jobs here! And get rid of those stifling factory emission regulations into the air and rivers of small town America. Get rid of the public schools! They are socialism and that's why they are not working, right?

Donald Trump is like someone who has promised he will get in a car and run down middle America as a campaign promise. And middle America has screamed itself hoarse cheering him on to do it. They have fueled up the car and given him the keys. The only thing which has mitigated the sheer maliciousness of his agenda is his abject ignorance, incompetence, and stupidity. He has gotten in the car, aimed at them, but then crashed it to the right. He has put it in reverse, revved up the car again, and then proceeded to crash it to the left. Then to the right again. Now he is going around in circles. Now he accidentally just forgot and kept it in reverse, backing up the car into the wall behind him. We liberals have tried to stop him, but we have become a subject of their anger. They are telling us we are keeping them from doing what the American voter wants. So it almost makes you want to get in the side seat with him, and help him go exactly where he, and his intended victims, want to go. We will not get rid of this Fox News nonsense until they are allowed to accomplish exactly everything they want to do, and then have to deal with their consequences.

Once Trump has run over middle America and put it in the hospital, we can then go visit them and talk about what they want to do next. Until then, they are crazed with excitement over this and are absolutely deaf to any voice of reason.

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Many share your view that says, let Trump and the GOP take millions off health insurance; ruin the environment; shut down solar in favor of coal (that will decrease jobs); etc., then sweep up the ashes later. The problem is that I don't want to punish people whose failing was to believe a con man or con men. I feel that we have a duty to keep America great -- even if Trump's supposed plan to make America great really makes America worse.

The other thing is that most of America didn't vote for Trump and they shouldn't suffer because of an electoral fluke that was aided by a foreign nation.

Moderate Right said:

Oh, I see. The super wealthy should be socially responsible (even though they pay the huge majority of federal income taxes) but the able bodied poor who would rather collect benefits than work and who would rather have kid after kid after kid when they can't even take care of themselves don't have to be socially responsible. Got it.

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To correct your diatribe, most of those that get said benefits are either working poor; disabled or seniors. Your image of the the fat person of color sitting on the couch drinking beer while collecting a welfare check is essentially fiction in the real world.

In addition, the super rich don't live in a vacuum. They depend upon a network that included schools that educate workers; roads; defense of the nation; a police system; a fair judicial system, etc. That costs money. They are also the best in a position to pay the taxes necessary.

Moderate Right said:

Oh, I see. The super wealthy should be socially responsible (even though they pay the huge majority of federal income taxes) but the able bodied poor who would rather collect benefits than work and who would rather have kid after kid after kid when they can't even take care of themselves don't have to be socially responsible. Got it.

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Ooookay....

Everyone should be socially responsible. (Duh)

The wealthy in the US pay the majority of federal taxes, because the wealthy collect the vast majority of income. Many earn substantial income from capital gains; many use various corporate tax structures to reduce their tax liabilities; all of them can afford to hire tax attorneys and accountants to help them find more ways to reduce their tax liabilities.

Brownback's tax cuts exacerbated some of these issues. For example, he tried to encourage companies to move to Kansas, by zeroing out taxes on LLC's. Rather than incentivize companies to move to Kansas, it incentivized existing businesses to restructure as LLCs. There is no indication they used the resulting windfall to hire staff, or invest in their companies. Even if they used it for personal consumption (which would increase state sales taxes), it is evident that it was a net loss for tax revenues.

Meanwhile, there is little evidence that the vast majority of poor people prefer to collect benefits rather than work.

Of those below the poverty line, about 1/3 are retired, or students, or disabled. Of those who can work, 63% are working, either full-time or part-time jobs. And of course, of those who aren't employed, many are looking for work.

Another reason people aren't choosing to collect those sweet sweet benefits instead of working? Those benefits are thin gruel indeed. Since the era of the Clinton reforms, TANF enrollments have plummeted; the awards are small; collection periods are limited to 2-3 years; and it's not popular because... the work requirements interfere with the ability of enrollees to search for jobs. Food stamps pay an average benefit per person of $127/month -- no one's getting rich off of that. There's very little subsidized housing, and wait lists can extend 5 years or longer.

There is no question that some poor people game the system. Then again, so do middle- and upper-income people, mostly in the form of tax credits that they demand from federal and state governments. Why should we vilify one, but not the other? Hmmm.

I.e. there isn't much actual reason to believe the conservative caricature of the poor that you offer... except for the psychological comfort and convenience it offers conservatives.

Moderate Right said:

You've already got what you want! The uber rich pay the huge majority of federal income taxes.

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The percentage that they pay is far, far less than the percentage that they make.

MTAtech said:

To correct your diatribe, most of those that get said benefits are either working poor; disabled or seniors. Your image of the the fat person of color sitting on the couch drinking beer while collecting a welfare check is essentially fiction in the real world.

In addition, the super rich don't live in a vacuum. They depend upon a network that included schools that educate workers; roads; defense of the nation; a police system; a fair judicial system, etc. That costs money. They are also the best in a position to pay the taxes necessary.

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You need to read the thread over again, starting at post #1. When Alabama reinstated a work requirement for able bodied people collecting benefits, there was an 85% reduction in these people because they didn't want to work to receive benefits. Hence, the myth is true. Republicans want the gravy train to be over, Democrats are perfectly fine with people being on the gravy train and several posters here have proven that by saying that anyone who doesn't want to work should receive benefits anyway.

This thread is just another example of Trump supporters who swear they voted for Trump because he is 'anti-elitist' but then they defend the elitist rich at the expense of the Middle Class, the poor. the disabled, seniors(many of whom need food stamps just to survive because SS isn't enough), and the poor.

Sounds pretty damn elitist to me.

Visbek said:

Ooookay....

Everyone should be socially responsible. (Duh)

The wealthy in the US pay the majority of federal taxes, because the wealthy collect the vast majority of income.

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Then no need to make them pay more. The left already has what they want.

ataraxia said:

The percentage that they pay is far, far less than the percentage that they make.

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They pay millions and the biggest majority of federal income taxes. This is a capitalistic society not a socialist.

MTAtech said:

Unless tax rates are raised to extreme levels, tax increases will result in more revenue. The idea that if we raise taxes on the rich by a few percent the rich will go Galt and stop trying to earn money, is an Ayn Rand fantasy.

as for cutting expenses, what is government spending money on, in any sizable amount, that would make a difference cutting? There is an editorial in today's Times about a Trump cutting the budget of inspector generals, whose efforts bring in 14x the amount of their budget.

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The problem is that its not that the rich will stop trying to earn money.. its that in todays world economy.. the rich can move their money making all over the world. And they will do so over just a few % because of the vast amounts of wealth we are talking about.

So there may be a better tax place in say Ireland.. but because of other costs, issues etc.. a rich person earns that money in the US. A few percentage increase in tax however,, and suddenly it makes more sense to go to Ireland and the US loses revenue.

ataraxia said:

The percentage that they pay is far, far less than the percentage that they make.

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So?

You must really be upset at the people that get a net BENEFIT from taxes because they get more back than they paid in.

Visbek said:

Ooookay....

Everyone should be socially responsible. (Duh)

The wealthy in the US pay the majority of federal taxes, because the wealthy collect the vast majority of income. Many earn substantial income from capital gains; many use various corporate tax structures to reduce their tax liabilities; all of them can afford to hire tax attorneys and accountants to help them find more ways to reduce their tax liabilities.

Brownback's tax cuts exacerbated some of these issues. For example, he tried to encourage companies to move to Kansas, by zeroing out taxes on LLC's. Rather than incentivize companies to move to Kansas, it incentivized existing businesses to restructure as LLCs. There is no indication they used the resulting windfall to hire staff, or invest in their companies. Even if they used it for personal consumption (which would increase state sales taxes), it is evident that it was a net loss for tax revenues.

Meanwhile, there is little evidence that the vast majority of poor people prefer to collect benefits rather than work.

Of those below the poverty line, about 1/3 are retired, or students, or disabled. Of those who can work, 63% are working, either full-time or part-time jobs. And of course, of those who aren't employed, many are looking for work.

Another reason people aren't choosing to collect those sweet sweet benefits instead of working? Those benefits are thin gruel indeed. Since the era of the Clinton reforms, TANF enrollments have plummeted; the awards are small; collection periods are limited to 2-3 years; and it's not popular because... the work requirements interfere with the ability of enrollees to search for jobs. Food stamps pay an average benefit per person of $127/month -- no one's getting rich off of that. There's very little subsidized housing, and wait lists can extend 5 years or longer.

There is no question that some poor people game the system. Then again, so do middle- and upper-income people, mostly in the form of tax credits that they demand from federal and state governments. Why should we vilify one, but not the other? Hmmm.

I.e. there isn't much actual reason to believe the conservative caricature of the poor that you offer... except for the psychological comfort and convenience it offers conservatives.

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Just to point out that there isn't much actual reason to believe the liberal caricature of the "wealthy" that liberals offer.. except for the psychological and convenience it offers liberals.

jaeger19 said:

The problem is that its not that the rich will stop trying to earn money.. its that in todays world economy.. the rich can move their money making all over the world. And they will do so over just a few % because of the vast amounts of wealth we are talking about.

So there may be a better tax place in say Ireland.. but because of other costs, issues etc.. a rich person earns that money in the US. A few percentage increase in tax however,, and suddenly it makes more sense to go to Ireland and the US loses revenue.

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If one is a U.S. resident and owns shares of stock. How do you move that ownership to someplace else that has tax advantages? It's not like moving a factory to China.

MTAtech said:

If one is a U.S. resident and owns shares of stock. How do you move that ownership to someplace else that has tax advantages? It's not like moving a factory to China.

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you set up corporate headquarters in Ireland. Or a separate company in a better tax country. Shell companies. Tax havens etc...

There are all sorts of tricks.

10 Accounting Tricks the 1% Use to Dodge the Taxman - The Accounting Degree Review

I'm really curious. If you're a conservative and believe in supply side economics, does this news, and all of the data that discounts your belief, alter your stance on those ideas at all?

And, what will it take to alter your beliefs if not facts?

Tettsuo said:

I'm really curious. If you're a conservative and believe in supply side economics, does this news, and all of the data that discounts your belief, alter your stance on those ideas at all?

And, what will it take to alter your beliefs if not facts?

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real conservatives don't "believe" in economics.. its a matter of science and logic.

Ideologues that identify erroneously as conservatives will simply become further entrenched when their ideology is questioned.

If you take a look at real conservatives.. even among todays politicians.. you can tell the real conservatives because at times they have called for tax decreases.. AND have called for tax increases.. both depending on the economic conditions.

jaeger19 said:

you set up corporate headquarters in Ireland. Or a separate company in a better tax country. Shell companies. Tax havens etc...

There are all sorts of tricks.

10 Accounting Tricks the 1% Use to Dodge the Taxman - The Accounting Degree Review

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I worked for a company with an HQ in Bermuda. I went to Bermuda on vacation and tried to find the HQ. It couldn't have been more than 1 room. It wa locked and no one answered. At 2pm on a Thursday. They employ thousands in San Jose, CA at their main campus.

That should not be legal.

jaeger19 said:

real conservatives don't "believe" in economics.. its a matter of science and logic.

Ideologues that identify erroneously as conservatives will simply become further entrenched when their ideology is questioned.

If you take a look at real conservatives.. even among todays politicians.. you can tell the real conservatives because at times they have called for tax decreases.. AND have called for tax increases.. both depending on the economic conditions.

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Not post 'tea-party' at the national level. They'd be primaried from the so called right by now.

<alt>doxygen said:

Not post 'tea-party' at the national level. They'd be primaried from the so called right by now.

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Not true. They still exist in the republican party. Usually in red states Senators and House members where they were entrenched before the Tea Party. They are pretty quiet now though because they don't want to come out as Anti Trump, since he is anything but conservative. Its not a good time to be a real conservative in the republican party. We have no real home.

They don't exist in the democrats, because the blue dogs were booted out by a combination of republicans or primary challenges within the democrat party.

jaeger19 said:

Not true. They still exist in the republican party. Usually in red states Senators and House members where they were entrenched before the Tea Party. They are pretty quiet now though because they don't want to come out as Anti Trump, since he is anything but conservative. Its not a good time to be a real conservative in the republican party. We have no real home.

They don't exist in the democrats, because the blue dogs were booted out by a combination of republicans or primary challenges within the democrat party.

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I don't argue that, but if they actually vocalized or voted along the lines you described, the Kochtopus would have primaried them. Not everyone is a psycho Freedom Caucus member type, not yet.

Yes, the dems are developing a similar problem.

More polarization will solve nothing.