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Trump to propose scrapping student loan forgiveness program

I'll wait till they actually publicly propose this to cry about Trump, but higher education is a public good. We have to realize this as a country. College has gotten way too expensive, yes partially because of the easy government financing that allows colleges to grow and charge more, but also because states have dramatically cut back subsidies. All the older folks crying about it not being fair, you probably paid a small fraction of the cost of a college education these days and likely came out in a better job market than those utilizing this program. At some point, we have to quit worrying about this whiny sense of "fairness" and start worrying about what's good for our future. This is a skill based economy. We need people with skills to stay on top.
 
vash1012 said:
I'll wait till they actually publicly propose this to cry about Trump, but higher education is a public good. We have to realize this as a country. College has gotten way too expensive, yes partially because of the easy government financing that allows colleges to grow and charge more, but also because states have dramatically cut back subsidies. All the older folks crying about it not being fair, you probably paid a small fraction of the cost of a college education these days and likely came out in a better job market than those utilizing this program. At some point, we have to quit worrying about this whiny sense of "fairness" and start worrying about what's good for our future. This is a skill based economy. We need people with skills to stay on top.
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Where you lose me in the above argument is the lack of acknowledgement that not everyone has the skills needed for a meaningful college education. If you had said that everyone who performed at a certain level in high school should be entitled to a free four year degree at their state university I would agree. Would the country really be better off if every taxi (now Uber) driver had a B.S. degree?
 
washunut said:
Would the country really be better off if every taxi (now Uber) driver had a B.S. degree?
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How could it not be better off? A more educated populace provides a higher level of critical thinking, reading comprehension, logic, proficiency in new technology, etc....

Just so it's clear: Would the country really be worse off if every taxi (now Uber) driver had a B.S. degree?

I would wager most commercial driving becomes automated by 2030.
 
washunut said:
Where you lose me in the above argument is the lack of acknowledgement that not everyone has the skills needed for a meaningful college education. If you had said that everyone who performed at a certain level in high school should be entitled to a free four year degree at their state university I would agree. Would the country really be better off if every taxi (now Uber) driver had a B.S. degree?
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I don't see where I said everyone should have a B.S. degree. I said we need more people with skills. 4 year college is one of those avenues. It needs to be supported with government dollars and regulation to curb these unneccessary inflations in cost. I fully support utilizing community college and also encouraging apprenticeships as much as possible.

Let's not forget the huge economic costs of saddling people with high levels of debt when they are likely paid the lowest of their career. They are deferring retirement savings, home ownership, children, etc. If you look at how other countries handle this, there are plenty of better models. For example, in Australia you pay 4% of your income above a certain level right out of your paycheck and if you drop below that certain level of income your loans are automatically deferred. Student loans in Sweden are automatically income based and over 25 years.

In America, our loan providers are being sued for not even telling people they have the option to have longer repayment terms and income based repayment.
 
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calamity said:
I believe everyone's student loans should be forgiven. But, I know the morons on the right would have a cow over that proposal.
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sorry; I disagree ............... no one EVER stuck a gun to anyone's head & forced them to get a student loan

if I get a loan then I should pay it back; same for anyone else ......................
 
Kushinator said:
How could it not be better off? A more educated populace provides a higher level of critical thinking, reading comprehension, logic, proficiency in new technology, etc....

Just so it's clear: Would the country really be worse off if every taxi (now Uber) driver had a B.S. degree?

I would wager most commercial driving becomes automated by 2030.
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If the country spent approximately $200K to enhance the critical thinking skills of our taxi drivers and Wal Mart cashiers, yes the country would be worse off.
 
vash1012 said:
I don't see where I said everyone should have a B.S. degree. I said we need more people with skills. 4 year college is one of those avenues. It needs to be supported with government dollars and regulation to curb these unneccessary inflations in cost. I fully support utilizing community college and also encouraging apprenticeships as much as possible.

Let's not forget the huge economic costs of saddling people with high levels of debt when they are likely paid the lowest of their career. They are deferring retirement savings, home ownership, children, etc. If you look at how other countries handle this, there are plenty of better models. For example, in Australia you pay 4% of your income above a certain level right out of your paycheck and if you drop below that certain level of income your loans are automatically deferred. Student loans in Sweden are automatically income based and over 25 years.

In America, our loan providers are being sued for not even telling people they have the option to have longer repayment terms and income based repayment.
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That is what parents are for. My son has zero debt as he should. He also could have gone to the honor program at our state university free if we could not afford a private school.
 
Kushinator said:
How could it not be better off? A more educated populace provides a higher level of critical thinking, reading comprehension, logic, proficiency in new technology, etc....

Just so it's clear: Would the country really be worse off if every taxi (now Uber) driver had a B.S. degree?

I would wager most commercial driving becomes automated by 2030.
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Nonsense.

Clearly you are not aware of some of the absolutely ridiculous things they teach in university.

There are many degrees that teach you ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that will help you in the real world.

Just getting a degree in anything is no guarantee of anything.

I mean how the hell is majoring in Art History or Music or Elizabethan Poetry going to give you a 'higher level of critical thinking, reading comprehension, logic or proficiency in new technology,'?

It ain't....not in the slightest.

But you want people to fork over their hard earned tax dollars so these wankers can go and spend four years and over $100K each so they can learn these useless degrees.

Oh yeah...brilliant use of taxpayers money...NOT.


If some ding dong wants to learn poetry...let them do it on their own dime.

But if you are SO big on the idea...than why not donate ALL of your extra money to this cause?
 
Once again, I am not saying ALL university is a waste. Clearly, much of it is not and can be very beneficial...and necessary (like medical degrees and engineering degrees, etc.).

But the notion that ANY post-secondary education is good for you is dead wrong, imo and is something that the left has been pushing for a LONG time. Often, in a very condescending way.

University is NOT the real world...it is usually a world unto itself. It is NOT indicative of how the real world operates...far from it.

My experience at university was that many people that went to it were just trying to find themselves. And the facts seem to bare that out.

'College students tend to agonize about their choice of major, but it turns out that for many of these graduates it probably won't matter.

A new survey from CareerBuilder suggests that plenty of Americans never work in the field that they prepared for in college. Among the 2,134 workers surveyed, 47 percent of college graduates did not find a first job that was related to their college major. What's more, 32 percent of college grads said that they had never worked in a field related to their majors.'

New study shows careers and college majors often don't match - CBS News

That means that at least 1/3 of students are getting little/nothing practical out of college...and are clearly just going to 'find themselves'.

And this is with many students having to pay their way. Obviously, if college became free, this number would skyrocket as young people would have nothing to lose by going to university simply because they have nothing better to do.
That represents a huge potential drain of taxpayer dollars for nothing practical back in return.

Plus, if colleges/universities know that the government is footing the bill - many market forces are gone and they can start charging almost whatever they wish as they know they will get paid. If the government starts paying for tuitions...their cost will skyrocket...guaranteed.

Free post secondary education for all would be a huge mistake for America, imo.
 
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CriticalThought said:
How on earth is it welfare?

It is a program where if you agree to work in public service, usually at lower pay and harsher conditions, and you pay on your student loans for 120 monthly payments without defaulting, then the government will pay the remaining balance, as stipulated by a CONTRACT, your loan promissory note. Some companies do the exact same thing.

You literally earn it by...

A: working
B: making payments
C: limiting your career options to specific fields and options.

This is not handouts to people in need, it is a contract.
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It certainly is NOT welfare. It's more like a bonus for working in the public sector. Trump should know a thing or two about bonuses, but it's business as usual. The billionaire will continue to rob the lower and middle class, at the benefit of his fellow billionaires.
 
CriticalThought said:
Trump to propose scrapping beleaguered student loan forgiveness program ? report - MarketWatch

Well that royally sucks. This is a program that was contractually included in every loan promissory note I signed. I made major financial decisions based on the federal government's promise with this program. I could have refinanced my student loans at a lower interest rate through a private lender. I could have gone into a more lucrative field in the private sector. I could have put off buying a house until I paid down my balance. And now two billionaires are going to make the federal government renege on its contracts with people who made the apparent mistake of believing in going into the poorly paid public sector.

I am not saying the program isn't flawed and that caps should not have been put in place a long time ago but when you are talking about a program that people made huge life altering decisions about and it looks like you aren't even going to grandfather in those who have been doing their part, well...I think I have reached my limit. I am going to find Maggie's old post about things I can be doing and I am fully joining the resistance.
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I'm sorry, but why should anyone not have to pay a loan back?

I have to be responsible with my finances. Expecting 'forgiveness" of debt is not a responsible act!
 
DA60 said:
And I am 100% against government paid tuition for post-secondary education. All it does is send tuition's skyward because schools know that since the government is paying, they can ask for almost whatever they want...so they do.
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In general, I dislike the idea. I would only be for such a program for those who get stellar grades in HS, but cannot afford college.
 
ludin said:
tell a high school kid to apply for a job with no experience and no degree for a finance job like you have.
your company wouldn't hire him.

you got hired because you had a degree. you had basic knowledge of your field of study. you understood basic concepts
and applications.
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Supply and demand.

What happens to the wages of jobs requiring a degree, and there are four qualified people for each job?

College would also be cheaper if the government stopped paying for everyone who wanted college. Again supply and demand. Reduce the student pool, and colleges will reduce tuition.
 
TurtleDude said:
my last year in college was about 10K a year (81) the same place is now around 65K

unbelievable
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Again, supply and demand.

Back in the late 70's, it was around 10k when my cousin went to MIT.
 
Lord of Planar said:
I'm sorry, but why should anyone not have to pay a loan back?

I have to be responsible with my finances. Expecting 'forgiveness" of debt is not a responsible act!
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...c-service-loan-forgiveness-program/index.html

More than 400,000 people have planned their careers and financial futures around the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program.

With the promise of debt forgiveness after 10 years of payments, the government program has allowed some people to return to school and pursue their dream jobs. It's helped them buy homes and start families while still paying off big student debts.

They chose careers as teachers, public defenders, social workers, and primary care doctors. Many work in low-income areas for below-average pay, despite their loans. Some have moved to different states and turned down higher-paying, private sector jobs to stay in the program.

Now they're hoping it wasn't all for nothing. A summary of the Education Department's proposed budget, released Monday night, calls for eliminating the already-troubled program.
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More than 400,000 people have planned their careers and financial futures around the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program.
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And again, an irresponsible move.

How about I don't pay taxes for five years, and expect these tax forgiveness programs available to forgive my tax debt of over $60,000?
 
CriticalThought said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...c-service-loan-forgiveness-program/index.html
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Perhaps the argument could have more teeth if it were backed by some facts showing that teachers, public defenders, social workers, and primary care doctors receive lower pay and long term benefits than they would have received in the private sector.

Average salaries of teachers in California is in the $60's. And what of the pensions and healthcare?

Average salaries for a Public Defender in California are over $100k.

Average salaries for primary care doctors is reported to be close to $200k.

Average salaries for social workers is all across the board, but is reported to be $65k/yr in California.

It's reported a person holding a degree in Engineering has a starting salary of @ $65k, if they can find a job.

Your argument needs more data support in order for me, at least, to be moved by a deal to incubate more government employees by having tax payers foot a big portion of the bill to provide the education.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Supply and demand.

What happens to the wages of jobs requiring a degree, and there are four qualified people for each job?

College would also be cheaper if the government stopped paying for everyone who wanted college. Again supply and demand. Reduce the student pool, and colleges will reduce tuition.
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college would be cheaper for a number of reasons 1 being administrative pay.
however more students require more teachers to be competitive you have to hire good teachers
those come at a cost.

however a big universities teachers are useless as it is the grad students that teach the courses most of the time
while the professors are writing books or grant proposals for the school.

more students require more resources which means more money.
however 65k is a bit much for a degree that is only going to pay 30-40 starting out.

without student loans though many kids wouldn't be able to afford college. nor could they get a job that would
pay enough to support them going to school and living at the same time.
 
CriticalThought said:
Trump to propose scrapping beleaguered student loan forgiveness program ? report - MarketWatch

Well that royally sucks. This is a program that was contractually included in every loan promissory note I signed. I made major financial decisions based on the federal government's promise with this program. I could have refinanced my student loans at a lower interest rate through a private lender. I could have gone into a more lucrative field in the private sector. I could have put off buying a house until I paid down my balance. And now two billionaires are going to make the federal government renege on its contracts with people who made the apparent mistake of believing in going into the poorly paid public sector.

I am not saying the program isn't flawed and that caps should not have been put in place a long time ago but when you are talking about a program that people made huge life altering decisions about and it looks like you aren't even going to grandfather in those who have been doing their part, well...I think I have reached my limit. I am going to find Maggie's old post about things I can be doing and I am fully joining the resistance.
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I don't think the program is going to change much if at all.

If it does, I believe those in the program already will be grandfathered and protected.
 
CriticalThought said:
Trump to propose scrapping beleaguered student loan forgiveness program ? report - MarketWatch

Well that royally sucks. This is a program that was contractually included in every loan promissory note I signed. I made major financial decisions based on the federal government's promise with this program. I could have refinanced my student loans at a lower interest rate through a private lender. I could have gone into a more lucrative field in the private sector. I could have put off buying a house until I paid down my balance. And now two billionaires are going to make the federal government renege on its contracts with people who made the apparent mistake of believing in going into the poorly paid public sector.

I am not saying the program isn't flawed and that caps should not have been put in place a long time ago but when you are talking about a program that people made huge life altering decisions about and it looks like you aren't even going to grandfather in those who have been doing their part, well...I think I have reached my limit. I am going to find Maggie's old post about things I can be doing and I am fully joining the resistance.
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Government issued student loans are delivered to the school. The school deducts tuition, fees, housing costs, and provides a stipend from those funds for textbooks. There is almost always a remaining balance that the school can either return OR the student can opt for disbursement and spend it on whatever they want with mostly unenforceable limitations. I agree that the loan amount actually applied to education costs by the school should be eligible for loan forgiveness, but I see no reason why those funds acquired through elective disbursement should be.
 
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ludin said:
without student loans though many kids wouldn't be able to afford college. nor could they get a job that would
pay enough to support them going to school and living at the same time.
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The mix of job types changes very little, except all the high paying jobs we lost when president Clinton sighed the free trade agreements.

Go ahead. Give everyone a 4 year degree,.

Now it will be a requisite to have such a degree to flip burgers for a fast food joint.
 
Lord of Planar said:
The mix of job types changes very little, except all the high paying jobs we lost when president Clinton sighed the free trade agreements.

Go ahead. Give everyone a 4 year degree,.

Now it will be a requisite to have such a degree to flip burgers for a fast food joint.
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I never would have gotten my 4 year degree without the SL program.
also you will only see that when minimum wage gets to 15 an hour.
 
Beaudreaux said:
This program, which was difficult for me to agree with at first because of being a fiscal conservative, has grown on me because it seems in line with the GI Bill, Bootstrap Program, and other similar programs the government uses to recruit and keep people that serve the nation.

I don't have a problem with improving the program with changes going forward, but whatever agreements that were made and acted upon already, should be honored without change.
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What Trump proposes is not important. He, unlike Obama, is less likely to ignore existing law. The law was passed by Congress and it will need to be Congress who rescinds it.

The devil is always in the details of these things. Is the program working as intended? Or is it being exploited while not providing the benefits it was intended to provide? These things I am not finding information on, and that would strongly affect my opinion as to whether the program needs to be phased out. So many one-size-fits-all federal initiatives are not as efficient, effective, or economical as grass roots efforts will be.

We fund so much stuff that really benefits nobody but those in government just because the program has a fancy, compassionate or noble sounding title on it. Those are what I hope the government will focus on and look to eliminate. That is one of the several reasons President Trump is in office as he is far more likely to do that than any of the establishment Republicans. And I doubt an establishment Democrat would do that at all.

I don't think any of us know enough about it to make an informed decision at this time. I'll reserve my opinion until after the debates and testimony that will affirm the value of the program one way or the other.
 
ludin said:
I never would have gotten my 4 year degree without the SL program.
also you will only see that when minimum wage gets to 15 an hour.
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I won't pretend to know individual situations, and know there are exceptions to most things as well.

I'm OK with student loan programs except I say the criteria needs to be tightened, and everyone pays back. Please stop with the entitlement mentality of "loan forgiveness."
 
washunut said:
If the country spent approximately $200K to enhance the critical thinking skills of our taxi drivers and Wal Mart cashiers, yes the country would be worse off.
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Where are you getting this $200k figure from?
 
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