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Sweden: Counter-Example to Conservative Propaganda

Winston said:
All good, do you have any analysis of your own? I see you often arguing economics valliantly.
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Analysis? As in something I've written? No, I just come here to argue. :)

(And I do learn a few things).
 
OlNate said:
And for all the right reasons... Automation and AI are going to put us in the interesting position of having an enormous population of people looking to work, and not being able to, because the human has been made obsolete as a profitable source of labor. The old assumption that folks willing to work will be able to support themselves will be turned on its head, and when no one can afford food, because they can't find a job to earn money to pay for it, support for capitalism will be a death sentence for an unimaginable number of people.

Of course, I'm sure that before that happens there will be a lot of ex-capitalists walking around rather grateful for the 2nd amendment. Hopefully the transition is a little easier up here, it's one of the comforts of living in a reasonably socialist country. Far from perfect, but far more open to the option.
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Canadians are blessed :).
 
Winston said:
False. Lower classes have low savings rates, any extra money redistributed from the top, where they have high savings rates, is spent back into the economy.



I guess the Left is the only one who cares about empowering the middle class and improving middle class lives.



Just like how the big meanie left had to force business to adhere to child labor laws, slavery abolition, minimum wage, and the 40 hour work week. But, I'm sure the left just doesn't understand business. There is no possible way you could get me to defend policy favoring people who already have too much. I much prefer to defend those who have little to nothing.




Kansas though, doing phenomenal, you'd think with all that extra freedom laying around, they could afford to send their kids to school.
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AGAIN, that extra money that you think should be forcibly redistributed never makes it to the poor and or middleclas.

When that Socialist idiot Hollande in France raised the top marginal tax rate to 75 percent, did it fix economic disparity ?

Did it make its way down to the Middle Class ? Nope.
And what makes you think America's Middle Class are looking for a handout ?
 
Critter7r said:
Analysis? As in something I've written? No, I just come here to argue. :)

(And I do learn a few things).
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They sure are. Their neighbor defends them and keeps the Russian bear out of their territories while Canada gets to spend their revenues experimenting with Socialism.
 
Critter7r said:
"Less than 1% of all businesses that disappeared in California in 2013 were due to out-of-state relocations, according to data from Youreconomy.org, which tracks business dynamics across the country. That's in line with the average for all states.

And an earlier Beacon analysis of census migration data showed that, despite California's comparatively high income tax rates, more people making in excess of $100,000 a year moved to California from other states from 2007 to 2013 than those who left."

California cranks out new businesses and jobs despite criticism - LA Times
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2013 ??

From 2008-2017

9000 companies, headquarters and bussiness expansions lost to Red States like Texas
http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/b...a-lost-9-000-business-hqs-and-expansions.html
 
Critter7r said:
Sort of like how conservatives get all pissy when it's pointed out that Venezuela and Greece are not valid comparisons to the US.
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They don't, everyone knows they're not. Thankfully.
 
Winston said:
Canadians are blessed :).
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hehe...no where is perfect, but I do feel very privileged to live in a country where people still believe they should look after one another. We have our factions as well, of course. It's sad, Canadian conservatives have not always stood for the things that the most vocal of their persuasion currently appear to stand for. Sorry, not sure where you're from, or how familiar you are with our stuff (if you're a Canadian poli-sci guy, my apologies for what will seem a very patronizing explanation), but our Right wing party is called the Conservatives...it used to be the Progressive Conservatives, believe it or not, and those were better days. The good news is that the citizenry seems to vote more to the left in general, which is cause for hope. :)
 
Winston said:
The Heritage foundation and a news org. owned by Michael Bloomberg will generally come to contradictory conclusions.

From the top economic policy advisor in Sweden's mouth, the recipe for success in Sweden is high taxes and wealth redistribution. Run that by the Heritage foundation and see if they agree. The Heritage Foundation will tell you the the free market is why a country with a left leaning economic policy is succeeding, because they have a predetermined conclusion and political ideology to defend.
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A progressive will generally denounce the source of a rebuttal rather than the argument made. A progressive will tell you high taxes and lots of regulation is why a country is succeeding, because they have a predetermined conclusion and political ideology to defend
 
Fenton said:
AGAIN, that extra money that you think should be forcibly redistributed never makes it to the poor and or middleclas (sic).
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We would be more than willing to see your proof that taxes, say for example the ACA tax on upper incomes that funds HI for those in the exchanges, are not "making it to the poor".
 
Fenton said:
AGAIN, that extra money that you think should be forcibly redistributed never makes it to the poor and or middleclas.
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Trickle down is not an effective method for wealth redistribution. The rich save their money. Right now, 1 in 2 working Americans makes less than $30,000/year. If you tax the rich and give the middle class, single-payer, free college for their kids, government paid childcare and daycare, that cuts an assload of cost out of the middle class budget and gives the middle class money to use as they please. Wealth redistribution specifically exampled in my OP. Right now, Americans wages are so low while CoL is on the rise. Childcare is a small example of where they are getting squeezed. How about childcare for the rich; the rich can afford to send 20 French big titted maids over to take care of their house. So, we have to tax the rich, and use that to provide, in this specific situation, government paid childcare. This puts more money in the middle classes pocket, which they use to stimulate the economy. The childcare people get paid, and local business gets paid through the middle classes purchasing power, from a lifted cost on their monthly expenses.



When that Socialist idiot Hollande in France raised the top marginal tax rate to 75 percent, did it fix economic disparity ?

Did it make its way down to the Middle Class ? Nope.
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I'm unfamiliar with what happened in France. Our top marginal rate was 91% under Eisenhower. JFK cut it to 70%. Before Reagan sold America the snake oil.

And what makes you think America's Middle Class are looking for a handout ?
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You're choosing to view spreading wealth throughout a society in a fair way, as a handout. It's a policy decision to increase the purchasing power of the middle class. Just like how we have a policy decision currently, to spend 800 Billion dollars, a budget that pay for free college tuition in this country, ten times over. You must only reorient your thinking, and accept that "handouts" and "free stuff" is just as applicable to the department of Defense. But, no one sees a F-35, and thinks, those goddamn freeloaders, flying around in their free planes.
 
jonny5 said:
A progressive will generally denounce the source of a rebuttal rather than the argument made. A progressive will tell you high taxes and lots of regulation is why a country is succeeding, because they have a predetermined conclusion and political ideology to defend
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Well, here we are in an economic forum, where we on the left DO rely on econometrics to not only form....but defend our arguments. It is very hypocritical to complain about "source" when yer "argument" is to rely on stereotypes of "progressives".
 
jonny5 said:
A progressive will generally denounce the source of a rebuttal rather than the argument made. A progressive will tell you high taxes and lots of regulation is why a country is succeeding, because they have a predetermined conclusion and political ideology to defend
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The Heritage Foundation is not to be trusted. You essentially found a link and said, "Look here. The Kochs say, Sweden does well because of the free market."

WELL,

Sweden's top economic adviser says Sweden does well because of LEFT WING POLICY choices. But, I'm sure the Kochs know more about Swedish economics, than the people that handle Swedish economics on a day to day....
 
Winston said:
The Heritage Foundation is not to be trusted. You essentially found a link and said, "Look here. The Kochs say, Sweden does well because of the free market."

WELL,

Sweden's top economic adviser says Sweden does well because of LEFT WING POLICY choices. But, I'm sure the Kochs know more about Swedish economics, than the people that handle Swedish economics on a day to day....
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Some sweden economic adviser is not to be trusted. Where does that leave us in this debate?
 
jonny5 said:
Some sweden economic adviser is not to be trusted. Where does that leave us in this debate?
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Okay?!

Saying Sweden is successful because of the free market, low corporate taxes, and relaxed regulations.. is just dishonest. You could make the argument that high taxes are not right for America because of XYZ. And I'd be open to listening to your reasoning.. but, showing me a study by the Heritage foundation that came to the conclusion that Sweden, a purveyor of left-wing economics is successful becuase of right wing economic theory, is just.. preposterous.
 
Winston said:
Okay?!

Saying Sweden is successful because of the free market, low corporate taxes, and relaxed regulations.. is just dishonest. You could make the argument that high taxes are not right for America because of XYZ. And I'd be open to listening to your reasoning.. but, showing me a study by the Heritage foundation that came to the conclusion that Sweden, a purveyor of left-wing economics is successful becuase of right wing economic theory, is just.. preposterous.
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Calling my argument dishonest because you disagree with it, is condescending. Saying your open to listening and then saying your going to dismiss it out of hand (unless its the argument you want) is contradictory.

So where does that leave us? I dont see how we can move forward until you are able to converse without such attitude and restrictions. Go back and look at your posts and see the pattern.

"Typical conservative deflection"
"Old, dusty, stale conservative economic principles"
"the Bannon zone. A zone that anyone wishing to be taken seriously, should avoid at all costs"

and multiple instances of sarcasm and mocking.
 
jonny5 said:
Calling my argument dishonest because you disagree with it, is condescending.
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He said using a Heritage citation is dishonest since it is countered by a Swedish economist. Your sticking to the Heritage argument is your fault.
 
Sweden: Great Economic Performance but Mind the Debt

Ya, I knew something wasn't quite right, especially with all of the dependent immigration they've allowed in their country.

Although the pace of increases has slowed somewhat recently, home prices in Sweden have risen to high levels, especially in the main cities. Swedes looking for housing are taking out increasingly large mortgages. It is seen in the rising shares of new mortgage borrowers whose debts are staggeringly high relative to income (see Chart 1).
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I would venture to say there is more to this past the housing issues... what's their government debt
 
Pureinheart said:
Sweden: Great Economic Performance but Mind the Debt

Ya, I knew something wasn't quite right, especially with all of the dependent immigration they've allowed in their country.



I would venture to say there is more to this past the housing issues... what's their government debt
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Um, its 41.6% of GDP, and in decline because of budget surpluses. Yer not gunna conflate personal debt with public debt....are yuh?
 
ataraxia said:
:lamo

I think you are confusing Sweden with Switzerland.

No wonder we keep electing stupid crazy people to congress and the whitehouse.

Wait, don't tell me, you also think climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese too!
:lamo
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Perhaps he also visited Austria and didn't see a single Kangaroo.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
He said using a Heritage citation is dishonest since it is countered by a Swedish economist. Your sticking to the Heritage argument is your fault.
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Heritage doesn't even pretend anymore that they are a fair research organization. They're a hack organization with a bad track-record for being correct. Heritage predicted that when Obamacare went into effect health spending would soar, deficits would balloon, premiums would shoot up, more people would lose insurance than gain it. None of these things happened. The CBO has not changed its view that the ACA reduces the deficit; health costs have not increased faster than before; premiums are not skyrocketing, except for last year.
 
MTAtech said:
Heritage doesn't even pretend anymore that they are a fair research organization. They're a hack organization with a bad track-record for being correct. Heritage predicted that when Obamacare went into effect health spending would soar, deficits would balloon, premiums would shoot up, more people would lose insurance than gain it. None of these things happened. The CBO has not changed its view that the ACA reduces the deficit; health costs have not increased faster than before; premiums are not skyrocketing, except for last year.
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Ad hominems are not arguments.
 
jonny5 said:
Ad hominems are not arguments.
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Ad hominems are arguments directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. I backed up my reasoning with examples.
 
MTAtech said:
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Ad hominems are arguments directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. I backed up my reasoning with examples.
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I was referring to the op, who likes to post everything as a insult instead of arguing the actual point. If anyone wants to debate the actual topic instead of the sources used to support an argument, ill be here.
 
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