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Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treasury?

Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

So, you are admitting that printing money devalues the dollar and the more money you print the more the dollar is devalued.
clearly you quoted the wrong post. my post has nothing to do with devaluing the dollar.

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Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Right.. just a few posts back.. I pointed out that production does not equal income. WHEN THE VALUE of that production is counted.. then yes it does equal income.

Another backtrack, but I'll take it, because it's progress.

Sure.. but you use production as productive capacity when it suits you... as in "when production can't keep up with demand and there isn;t stuff on the shelves to buy"

No, I use the terms correctly. Production is what you have made and sold. Productive capacity is what you could make and sell, if the demand was there.

Well.. maybe you can show where I EVER said that they aren't different? I suppose you find it interesting because you just made it up!.. Another of your diversions.

I said it wasn't the same, because Keynes was talking about gold standard economics. Then you said, "Wrong. His position is still valid today." So now you need to explain how going from gold to fiat hasn't fundamentally changed the need to run the occasional surplus.

However.. despite it being different.. it doesn't mean that Keynes premise is invalid. and that's because just because a fiat currency is not backed by gold.. it DOES NOT MEAN THAT A COUNTRY WITH A FIAT CURRENCY CAN SIMPLY PRINT ALL THE MONEY IT WANTS WITHOUT REPERCUSIONS..

Which has NEVER been my position, and you know it. I have ALWAYS said that too much demand would swamp your economy's ability to meet demand. I've been saying the same friggin' thing for two years, over and over, yet you guys still insist on using your own strawman to argue against. If you need to build a strawman to stay in the fight, then your position is pretty weak.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Though our currency is not backed by gold.. its backed by the good faith and credit of the US.. which means that the US must still maintain that good faith.. and a good portion of that faith is built into our spending habits and our debt load. When times are good, we need to be more conservative with our debt and deficit.. and this allows us to be less conservative when times are tougher and we need to avoid a recession.

To any competent bondholder, "good faith and credit" means paying one's obligation on the bond. Being conservative with our debt and deficit does not affect our ability to meet those obligations - and bondholders understand this. The rest, you are just making up. How does it allow us to be less conservative in bad times? How does it help us avoid a recession? There is zero basis for these assumptions. ZERO. And if you say Venezuela, you are just displaying your ignorance of the distinctions.

Now.. I understand that your assumption.. your erroneous assumption that there is no limit to the amount of currency a country with a fiat currency can produce except when there is not enough stuff to buy (productive capacity is maxed)... but that assumption is false and Venezuela is an example of that.

OK, your ignorance has been confirmed. That didn't take long.

Venezuela backs me up, not you. Their domestic economy does not have the capacity to meet the demand of their people, as evidenced (something you might like to try sometime) by their importing of much of their food and essential items. The cost of those imports goes right out of the Venezuelan economy as a demand leakage; if you spend $100 on groceries, and $40 of that goes overseas to buy the food itself, only $60 stays in the economy. That shouldn't be difficult to understand. Deficit spending isn't spurring increased domestic production because they don't make the stuff that people want, and need, to buy. In other words, their economy does not have the productive capacity to meet demand.

ANOTHER DIVERSION JOHN., I never said it did help you borrow your own currency..nor make it possible to create ones own currency. Foreign reserves (if held in strong currencies) allow you to purchase goods and service debt. HOWEVER.. having lower deficits and lower debt loads DOES MAKE IT EASIER TO GET LOANS (whether direct or in bonds etc) from either your own people or foreign investment and thus allows you to deficit spend much easier..

It doesn't help you to borrow your own currency.... but it does make it easier to get loans. Got it.


Sweet baby Jesus.. you have no intellectual honesty. YOU ARE THE ONE THAT SAID THAT DEFICIT SPENDING DIDN"T HELP VENEZUELA... BECAUSE IT ALL WENT TO FOREIGN IMPORTS"... And I POINTED OUT ACCURATELY THAT"S NOT TRUE. When a person gets paid by the government whether socialized medicines healthcare workers.. or a government teacher... and they go to a "walmart" and buy a foreign made good. THE MAJORITY OF MONEY STAYS IN COUNTRY AND GETS COUNTED IN THE DOMESTIC ECONOMY.

OK, Mr. Picky, I was sloppy with my wording, and I used the word "all." It doesn't change the fact that there is a large net leakage from the VZ economy. ANY net leakage, and you have negative growth. Their deficit spending doesn't fill the gap, because it's going to buy imported goods.

The U.S. could pay the unemployed to dig holes and fill them back up, because our economy produces what they would buy with their wages, and it has the capacity to expand to meet the increased demand. That is not true of Venezuela's economy.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Poop.. he argued that there was virtually no limit with a fiat currency because the government could always pay its bills as long as there was enough goods on the shelves to buy..

Wrong. I said that there is no limit to the amount of fiat currency a government can create, and it can always pay its bills denominated in its own currency.

I also said that as long as there were enough goods on the shelves to buy, you won't get hyperinflation. Two very separate ideas that you conflated when building your strawman.

and defied anyone to prove that debt and deficit spending could be a problem.

Wrong again. I have always said that too much deficit spending could lead to inflation. I defied anyone to demonstrate that our debt and deficit, in and of themselves, were causing us problems. Again, two separate ideas that you can't seem to understand.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Let's not forget that Venezuela is a country of 30 million people. Less than 1/10 the size of the US population. Their economy doesnt have nearly the momentum or diversification that we have.

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Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Let's not forget that Venezuela is a country of 30 million people. Less than 1/10 the size of the US population. Their economy doesnt have nearly the momentum or diversification that we have.

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Momentum? Diversification?

Those two things have nothing whatsoever to do with the size of an economy. You can have economies just as diverse and having similar 'momentum' at 30 million or 330 million or 1 billion or even 3 million.

Sounds to me like you trying to make excuses.


Venezuela tried to have an economy dominated by government control (as did Zimbabwe)...and it failed...spectacularly.

And if you have any doubt of it's monumental failure...take a gander at this chart:

venezuela-inflation-cpi.png


Venezuela Inflation Rate | 1973-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast

If the government had stayed out of the way and simply let the free market run things (with the government looking after those who cannot look after themselves with THE BASICS ONLY)...no way Venezuela would be in this mess.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Momentum? Diversification?

Those two things have nothing whatsoever to do with the size of an economy. You can have economies just as diverse and having similar 'momentum' at 30 million or 330 million or 1 billion or even 3 million.

Sounds to me like you trying to make excuses.


Venezuela tried to have an economy dominated by government control (as did Zimbabwe)...and it failed...spectacularly.

And if you have any doubt of it's monumental failure...take a gander at this chart:

venezuela-inflation-cpi.png


Venezuela Inflation Rate | 1973-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast

If the government had stayed out of the way and simply let the free market run things (with the government looking after those who cannot look after themselves with THE BASICS ONLY)...no way Venezuela would be in this mess.

Nobody here is trying to defend the actions of the Venezuelan government. We are just trying to make the case that governments generally don't start printing tons of money for the hell of it, they do it in reaction to other economic pressures. You guys are completely mesmerized by the monetarist idea that having the correct amount of money would solve all economic problems, but it doesn't work that way.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Nobody here is trying to defend the actions of the Venezuelan government. We are just trying to make the case that governments generally don't start printing tons of money for the hell of it, they do it in reaction to other economic pressures. You guys are completely mesmerized by the monetarist idea that having the correct amount of money would solve all economic problems, but it doesn't work that way.

Then you are not arguing mmt you are arguing modern economics.
As we have seen by the definition of mmt that a government that has its own money
Has unlimited resources to pay for anything.

Other mmt'ers have even said there is no reason to collect taxes government can just print money.
Thank you for finally admitting that no country uses mmt. It took thousands of posts but you finally
Got to that point.

You have finally taken a good step into real economics.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Nobody here is trying to defend the actions of the Venezuelan government. We are just trying to make the case that governments generally don't start printing tons of money for the hell of it, they do it in reaction to other economic pressures. You guys are completely mesmerized by the monetarist idea that having the correct amount of money would solve all economic problems, but it doesn't work that way.

But that's exactly what you want to do, print all the money we need to put everyone to work while you turn around and say, "the monetarist idea that having the correct amount of money would solve all economic problems, but it doesn't work that way".
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Momentum? Diversification?

Those two things have nothing whatsoever to do with the size of an economy. You can have economies just as diverse and having similar 'momentum' at 30 million or 330 million or 1 billion or even 3 million.

Sounds to me like you trying to make excuses.


Venezuela tried to have an economy dominated by government control (as did Zimbabwe)...and it failed...spectacularly.

And if you have any doubt of it's monumental failure...take a gander at this chart:

venezuela-inflation-cpi.png


Venezuela Inflation Rate | 1973-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast

If the government had stayed out of the way and simply let the free market run things (with the government looking after those who cannot look after themselves with THE BASICS ONLY)...no way Venezuela would be in this mess.
A $500 Billion economy doesn't have the same momentum as an $18 trillion dollar economy, especially when a single, volatile commodity accounts for more than half of the smaller economy. VZ essentially has a $250 Billion economy, plus oil.

In 2015, oil represented less than 2% of the US economy, and over 50% of VZ's. Oil prices affected our economy more negatively when they were high than when they fell.

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Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

A $500 Billion economy doesn't have the same momentum as an $18 trillion dollar economy, especially when a single, volatile commodity accounts for more than half of the smaller economy. VZ essentially has a $250 Billion economy, plus oil.

In 2015, oil represented less than 2% of the US economy, and over 50% of VZ's. Oil prices affected our economy more negatively when they were high than when they fell.

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But their liberal solution to the problem poured gasoline on the fire, just as liberals in the US want to throw gasoline on the fire.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

But their liberal solution to the problem poured gasoline on the fire, just as liberals in the US want to throw gasoline on the fire.
Why dont we walk thru what would have happened if the govt had not printed more currency? Just as a thought excercise, and without all the hateful hyperbole.

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Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Why dont we walk thru what would have happened if the govt had not printed more currency? Just as a thought excercise, and without all the hateful hyperbole.

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We don't need hypotheticals because we know exactly what happened by throwing gasoline on the fire. Obviously, throwing gasoline on a fire is not a good idea. Can you at least admit that? The solution to the problem is not being socialist/liberal in the first place. Same thing can be said for Greece. If they had not let their debt get so out of control in the first place by being so liberal, they would have never faced austerity. The US doesn't need to go down the same road by letting our debt get too out of control in the first place. This is our argument against MMT. We can't afford to let our debt get out of control and then have events happen which make us get caught with our pants down, just the way it happened in both Ven and Greece.
 
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Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

We don't need hypotheticals because we know exactly what happened by throwing gasoline on the fire. Obviously, throwing gasoline on a fire is not a good idea. Can you at least admit that? The solution to the problem is not being socialist/liberal in the first place. Same thing can be said for Greece. If they had not let their debt get so out of control in the first place by being so liberal, they would have never faced austerity. The US doesn't need to go down the same road by letting our debt get too out of control in the first place. This is our argument against MMT. We can't afford to let our debt get out of control and then have events happen which make us get caught with our pants down, just the way it happened in both Ven and Greece.
I asked if we could walk thru what would have happened if VZ had NOT "thrown gasoline on the fire". Would everything be just fine? Would things be less bad? Walk me thru the results of a VZ economy where oil prices tank and currency *isnt* printed en masse.

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Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

I asked if we could walk thru what would have happened if VZ had NOT "thrown gasoline on the fire". Would everything be just fine? Would things be less bad? Walk me thru the results of a VZ economy where oil prices tank and currency *isnt* printed en masse.

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I answered the question. By being socialist/liberal in the first place it put them in basically a no win situation. You want me to figure a way out of a situation they should have never been in to begin with. Surely you know enough about economoics not to put all your eggs in one basket (oil).
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

I answered the question. By being socialist/liberal in the first place it put them in basically a no win situation. You want me to figure a way out of a situation they should have never been in to begin with. Surely you know enough about economoics not to put all your eggs in one basket (oil).
So you're saying the fix for VZ's economy was A) don't allow oil to become such a large part of their economy in the first place, and B) don't print oodles of currency in a tanking economy. Do I have that right so far?

Also, you didn't answer the question. I asked you for your vision of how they should have handled the situation, and you recapped what actually happened.
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Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

So you're saying the fix for VZ's economy was A) don't allow oil to become such a large part of their economy in the first place, and B) don't print oodles of currency in a tanking economy. Do I have that right so far?

Also, you didn't answer the question. I asked you for your vision of how they should have handled the situation, and you recapped what actually happened.
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I have repeatedly said that the fix was not letting themselves get into that situation in the first place. That's the trouble with you MMT'rs. You would rather let your country get into a no win situation and then try figuring out the best solution when you shouldn't have been in that predicament in the first place.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

I have repeatedly said that the fix was not letting themselves get into that situation in the first place. That's the trouble with you MMT'rs. You would rather let your country get into a no win situation and then try figuring out the best solution when you shouldn't have been in that predicament in the first place.
ok, so let's go back a little farther. What *should* VZ have done? Put a cap on the amount of oil pumped or sold? So that it didn't become such a major force in their economy? And what's the parallel danger to VZ's oil problem in the US economy?

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Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

ok, so let's go back a little farther. What *should* VZ have done? Put a cap on the amount of oil pumped or sold? So that it didn't become such a major force in their economy? And what's the parallel danger to VZ's oil problem in the US economy?

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I don't know why you're trying to turn this into rocket science. The socialist government used oil to make themselves rich (that's what socialist leaders do), leaving most of their citizens on the bottom rung. The socialist regime had no reason to diversify the economy because it is what was making them rich. When oil collapsed it destroyed their economy but of course the socialist leaders still remained rich. Short answer: they should have diversified their economy more but they had no incentive to do so due to being socialists where everyone is basically the same except for the dictators.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

I have repeatedly said that the fix was not letting themselves get into that situation in the first place.

That isn't a fix, it is spewage with the gift of hindsight. Look at Saudi Arabia, Qatar, U.A.E., etc.... They are all oil exporting economies under government economic control, but were able to whether the storm of low oil prices without the economic ramifications suffered in Venezuela.

So can you explain this discrepancy?

That's the trouble with you MMT'rs. You would rather let your country get into a no win situation and then try figuring out the best solution when you shouldn't have been in that predicament in the first place.

That's the problem with those who speak of things for which they have (extremely) limited knowledge. You believe you can substitute valid economic thought with partisan ignorance.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Probably not.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

That isn't a fix, it is spewage with the gift of hindsight. Look at Saudi Arabia, Qatar, U.A.E., etc.... They are all oil exporting economies under government economic control, but were able to whether the storm of low oil prices without the economic ramifications suffered in Venezuela.

So can you explain this discrepancy?



That's the problem with those who speak of things for which they have (extremely) limited knowledge. You believe you can substitute valid economic thought with partisan ignorance.

There is no greater partisan ignorance than yours. And, you have validated the fact that your position is to take no preventative measures at all to stop an economic calamity from happening. Just spend and indebt ourselves into oblivion and deal with the repercussions after it is already too late, just like Greece and Venezula.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

Then you are not arguing mmt you are arguing modern economics.
As we have seen by the definition of mmt that a government that has its own money
Has unlimited resources to pay for anything.

Wrong. The government has an unlimited ability to pay bills denominated in dollars. That does not mean that they can buy everything in sight, and I have said this about a million times. Spending beyond your economy's ability to meet demand will result in inflation. I guess since you have no valid argument to counter this, you insist on creating strawmen (like you just did).

Again - don't even bother to "define" MMT. You either don't understand it, or you don't have the integrity to do it right.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

We don't need hypotheticals because we know exactly what happened by throwing gasoline on the fire. Obviously, throwing gasoline on a fire is not a good idea. Can you at least admit that? The solution to the problem is not being socialist/liberal in the first place. Same thing can be said for Greece. If they had not let their debt get so out of control in the first place by being so liberal, they would have never faced austerity. The US doesn't need to go down the same road by letting our debt get too out of control in the first place. This is our argument against MMT. We can't afford to let our debt get out of control and then have events happen which make us get caught with our pants down, just the way it happened in both Ven and Greece.

In other words, you have NO CLUE what might have happened, because you don't know the first thing about economics.
 
Re: Do you think you know more about economics than the Deputy Secretary of the Treas

In other words, you have NO CLUE what might have happened, because you don't know the first thing about economics.

We already know what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because it happened!!!!!!!!!! My God man, you don't even know economics enough to know what already happened. You're like a weatherman who doesn't know it rained after it already rained. And you want to teach us?
 
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