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What Happens To The Soc. Sec. Money Of People That Die Before Collecting?

Imagine a donation box with a line of people walking past on either side of it. On one side of that box, a person passes by every second and puts one dollar into the box. On the other side of the box, a person passes by every three seconds and removes three dollars. That's Social Security. As a person is born, they get in line and eventually get to the box and put in their one dollar. Then they continue on in the line and as long as they don't die, they eventually wind around in the line to the other side of the box to collect their three dollars.

It's not a Ponzi scheme, because there's no end. There's an end for each of the players, but not the process. It's not in place just for the benefit of Bernard Madeoff (for example), it's there for all of the citizens of the country. Sort of Ponzi-esqe? Meh, maybe, if you think cynically about it. But it's not a "Ponzi scheme".

Seriously?!?!?! You don't see a problem with your analogy? If one dollar goes in for every 3 dollars goes out. Then it's gonna fail because you can't replace enough dollars. Hence there is an end. Social Security was specifically set up under the guise that for every 1 person withdrawing 3 dollars there was 3 people putting in 1 dollar. Today, even Social Security admits in 2037, the fund will be exhausted. Means no more money to pay full benefits.

Which is why in recent years retirement age went from 62 to 65 and now 67. So yeah it's a ponzi scheme.
 
No, it doesn't invest in T-Bills. The funds aren't used to produce a return. It uses those securities as a means to take the surplus tax money and provide it to the rest of the government. It's repaid at a rate that tries to peg to inflation.

I.e. the federal government isn't telling you that you will get a 100% return on your money in 6 weeks.

Probably gonna have to split this one too..

You seriously have no clue what you are talking about.. It does invest in T-bills. It invests in special Government T-bills that pay inflation plus X%. US CPI in 2015 was .7%. Social Security got 2.5% coupon on it's T-bills.



SS in the US is not that type of program. We could switch to an Australia-style superannuation fund system -- but it would cost trillions of dollars to do so.

The Aussie system is not without its problems. It's cheaper to run; however, many participants get screwed by the fees charged by those private funds, which seriously dings the returns. The higher-fee funds, of course, don't outperform lower-fee funds.

Another issue is that even with mandatory investments, many Aussies didn't save enough for retirement (in part because many live to ripe old ages), which results in them receiving government pensions.

A third issue is that obviously, the value of those portfolios depends on market timing. E.g. if you're already retired, and the market goes into a nosedive that takes years to recover (e.g. 2008), then you're going to get hit hard. Your net worth will decline, and your income along with it. Plus, if you draw down from it, you're eroding your holdings faster.

Never said SS is that type of system. It's a horribly designed ponzi scheme that's coming to an end.. come 2037.. they won't be able to pay full benefits to future generations. Baby Boomers will suck it dry.

Social Security is means tested in the US already in it's calculation of benefit payment. Low wage earners get benefit boosts while those who earned more get less. US Federal Government created FERS and it was created in the Social Security fix in 1980s. Those new Federal employees in the 1980s got screwed. Those on CSRS (Civil Service Retirement Act) with 30 years service get 60% of their "high 3" working income. To put in context, FERS retirement will be $45,000 a year making roughly $90,000 year in your last 3 years. If it was on CSRS, it'd be $54,000 as of right now.

Most don't save for retirement because of how the system is set up. Aussies are guaranteed X amount, just as Americans are. So you don't plan for retirement.

The third issue is not obvious because all investments are about protection be it 20 years old or 65 years old. If you are planning to retire in the next 10 years, play it safe, go for dividends or reduce risk. A person who retired in 2008, assuming 30 years of work actually made a killing from 1978 to 2008 in the stock market. We are talking 1,000% return before dividends.

....no, that's not the definition of a Ponzi scheme.

If that was the case, the entire capitalist system is a "Ponzi scheme." If people don't keep buying stocks, their valuations will crater, and the market will collapse. If people stopped buying iPhones today, the company would collapse. If people stopped buying auto insurance today, the market would collapse.

Yes, it's a definition of a Ponzi scheme. Ponzi Scheme is an operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors.


Someone missed the point

I didn't say SS was guaranteed -- although there is more than enough political/voting power to keep it going well beyond 2032.

What I'm saying is that you have the causality backwards. It's not that people don't save for retirement because the government offers SS. I'm saying that millions of Americans can't afford to save for retirement. That was the whole reason why we started SS in the first place.

Sure, some people are stupid with money. But the bigger issue is that by our very nature, humans don't plan well for the future, and value the present more.

SS for the last 40 years has been promised as that. If SS is just a safety net then call it a welfare program. Not the 3rd rail of politics and retirement. Yes, I am familiar with the theory.


Yes, China's purchases of federal debt help keep interest rates low. But that money isn't lent to consumers. It's also denominated in USD, so it's not like they are getting back Yuan. And it doesn't change anything about the "flight to safety" argument.

When China buys bonds they are supporting the Yuan price or issuing more Yuan to stimulate their economy.
 
What about it?

It was an international agreement to set minimum capital requirements, prepare for downturns, and avoid excessive lending.

Does this suggest to you that private sector credit dried up in the wake of regulation? Dodd-Frank was passed in 2010, and took time to go into effect. Basel III was 2011.

united-states-loans-to-private-sector@3x.png

Basel III actually changed the rules on what Capital was for banks.
 
Wrong. 1979 the Dow Jones was at 800 points, in 2009 it's low was 6,626 (end 2009 above 10,000). That's not even including dividend payments.
Which means nothing. When your 401 (k) has $200k in it and the stock market drops from 14,000 to 8,500, you lose about $80k.


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Seriously?!?!?! You don't see a problem with your analogy? If one dollar goes in for every 3 dollars goes out. Then it's gonna fail because you can't replace enough dollars. Hence there is an end. Social Security was specifically set up under the guise that for every 1 person withdrawing 3 dollars there was 3 people putting in 1 dollar. Today, even Social Security admits in 2037, the fund will be exhausted. Means no more money to pay full benefits.

Which is why in recent years retirement age went from 62 to 65 and now 67. So yeah it's a ponzi scheme.
You ignored the timing of the input and output.

And the fund running out doesn't mean that SS doesn't still have income, it just means that there isnt a buffer to allow the system to pay out more than it brings in. So one of two things have to happen at that point: the govt diverts funding from another source (either increase the SS tax or deficit spend), OR, decrese benefits.

Let me repeat that, it does NOT mean there won't be any money available for payments to retirees, it means that there will only be the amount collected from workers available for payments to retirees. We will still have the ability to pay out more than what is collected, we will either have to find a source to make up the shortfall, or reduce payments.

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Seriously?!?!?! You don't see a problem with your analogy? If one dollar goes in for every 3 dollars goes out. Then it's gonna fail because you can't replace enough dollars. Hence there is an end. Social Security was specifically set up under the guise that for every 1 person withdrawing 3 dollars there was 3 people putting in 1 dollar. Today, even Social Security admits in 2037, the fund will be exhausted. Means no more money to pay full benefits.

Which is why in recent years retirement age went from 62 to 65 and now 67. So yeah it's a ponzi scheme.

So, according to your data, we have about 20 years to keep doing nothing different and then we must increase SS revenue and/or decrease SS payment levels.
 
So, according to your data, we have about 20 years to keep doing nothing different and then we must increase SS revenue and/or decrease SS payment levels.

Yes, if you want to keep the same benefits that are being paid out now.
 
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