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Conservatism vs Liberalism

jaeger19 said:
that's fine.. but again.. it doesn't really matter does it. those peoples perception of the debt.. cause real political and economic actions.. which does lead to less money in the economy (if say they decide to save... or the government decides to cut back spending)

so again at the end of the day.. the debt/deficit and peoples reactions to it do have a real effect. ...

And to help you understand further... Its this reaction of people that's most important... because it effects BEHAVIOR.

John and the MMTers act like they are the only ones that understand what a fiat economy is. Seriously.. do you think Keynes, and all other leading economists don't/didn't understand that in a fiat economy particularly one not tied to a standard... technically, the government can "always pay its debts" through money creation? ??
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When Keynes was alive, we were on the gold standard. Please don't lecture me about understanding economics.
 
jaeger19 said:
And yet critter.. you still can't get a loan because though there may be no "factual basis" for them to believe it.. YOU STILL CAN'T GET A LOAN. Their perception is your reality.

and so.. going forward.. you are going to have to move that score from 550 to 850 again.. which means that you are going to probably have to do things you normally wouldn't simply to push that credit score up faster. So you may have to reduce your debt load. You may have to forgo simply shopping for a new car (since those bastards run your credit check when you go on a test drive and it affects your credit score)... you may have to cancel a couple of your wifes credit cards that she doesn't really use but signed up so she could get 50% off her next purchase or whatever.

At the end of the day.. their perception is your reality and you have to deal with it accordingly.

that's the reality of our debt/deficit. When people feel its a problem.. its a problem... when they don't care.. its not a problem (until suddenly they do care which can turn on a dime). And that has real consequences for the economy. And economists and business people by and large understand that. They understand that we have a fiat money system.. one that's not backed by gold. but they also understand how people are.. and how they tend to react to debt/deficit especially when they feel its too high.

.
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You're obviously not understanding the instructions. The instructions were to list off the systemic constraints caused by having too much debt. People's irrational reactions to and feelings about the Debt notwithstanding, what is it about the Debt that puts constraints on the monetary system?

If I have a low credit score, I can't get a loan; if I send my entire savings to Russia in hopes of securing a bride, I won't have any money to spend this month on food; if I kick a brick wall with all my might, I will have a broken toe; if the country has $20 Trillion in Debt, the dollars in the economy _____________ ... do what? Do interest rates go up? Do stock prices fall? What is triggered by THE DEBT ITSELF?

WHAT IS THE REALITY? And I don't mean someone's perception becoming reality, I mean the actual reality? What does the debt DO?
 
Captain America said:
The problem with conservatives is that they think they are entitled to dictate how other people should live their live's. They should stick with dealing with the people's money or taxes as President Eisenhower says. They need to get out of the business of morals and oppression. The problem is, they have to get elected to be able to deal with anything and their base is forever trying to force their way of life on other's through the use of laws and regulations. The government needs to get out of the people's personal lives and........



But instead, we have voters that want to shove their beliefs down the throats of all others. The new brand of conservatives are not really conservatives at all.
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Seriously? Your post sounds like the left to me, not the right. The left is constantly dictating to everyone how to run their lives.
 
Moderate Right said:
Seriously? Your post sounds like the left to me, not the right. The left is constantly dictating to everyone how to run their lives.
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Of course. That's what it's like living in alt-world. You see things just the opposite of what we here in reality world do.

But that's okay. Perception is reality. And if that's how you perceive things, as alt world as it may be, that's your reality.

Takes all kinds of people to make the world-go-round. There's room for everyone.
 
Captain America said:
Of course. That's what it's like living in alt-world. You see things just the opposite of what we here in reality world do.

But that's okay. Perception is reality. And if that's how you perceive things, as alt world as it may be, that's your reality.

Takes all kinds of people to make the world-go-round. There's room for everyone.
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Who is on the outside looking in and who is on the inside looking out?
 
Moderate Right said:
Who is on the outside looking in and who is on the inside looking out?
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I am reminded of an old comic book I used to read as a child. A Superman world where left was right, right was wrong and up was down. If memory serves me correctly, it was called Bizarro World. Their planet was cubed.

Humans are so unique.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
When Keynes was alive, we were on the gold standard. Please don't lecture me about understanding economics.
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Keynes saw Roosevelt essentially end the prior gold standard... and he participated in proposals after WW2 when the Bretton Woods system was developed. He was very much aware of what a fiat currency was.

An interesting quote attributed to Keynes:

By this means (fractional reserve banking) government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft.”

- John Maynard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace (1920)
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Well john.. if you don't want me to lecture you. I suggest you go and get some formal education in economics.
 
Critter7r said:
You're obviously not understanding the instructions. The instructions were to list off the systemic constraints caused by having too much debt. People's irrational reactions to and feelings about the Debt notwithstanding, what is it about the Debt that puts constraints on the monetary system?

If I have a low credit score, I can't get a loan; if I send my entire savings to Russia in hopes of securing a bride, I won't have any money to spend this month on food; if I kick a brick wall with all my might, I will have a broken toe; if the country has $20 Trillion in Debt, the dollars in the economy _____________ ... do what? Do interest rates go up? Do stock prices fall? What is triggered by THE DEBT ITSELF?

WHAT IS THE REALITY? And I don't mean someone's perception becoming reality, I mean the actual reality? What does the debt DO?
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The debt changes peoples behavior.. because how they perceive it.. influences their decisions. Its really that easy.

See.. the "instructions" as you call them are an invalid discussion. Everyone who understands a fiat system understands that there is no single authority that can stop the US from printing all the money it would like to. Basically it can create dollars at will and always "pay its bills"... that's a fiat currency.

However.. that's a theoretical world. In the real world.. the economy will suffer because people/governments/economies will react negatively to such money creation.

If you have a low credit score.. you can't get a loan.

If American has too much debt/deficit.. it constrains the government (through our political system) from borrowing more.. and it must work to restore faith by curbing deficits.

You just saw an example of it with Obama...
 
Captain America said:
I am reminded of an old comic book I used to read as a child. A Superman world where left was right, right was wrong and up was down. If memory serves me correctly, it was called Bizarro World. Their planet was cubed.

Humans are so unique.
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jaeger19 said:
The debt changes peoples behavior.. because how they perceive it.. influences their decisions. Its really that easy.

See.. the "instructions" as you call them are an invalid discussion. Everyone who understands a fiat system understands that there is no single authority that can stop the US from printing all the money it would like to. Basically it can create dollars at will and always "pay its bills"... that's a fiat currency.

However.. that's a theoretical world. In the real world.. the economy will suffer because people/governments/economies will react negatively to such money creation.

If you have a low credit score.. you can't get a loan.

If American has too much debt/deficit.. it constrains the government (through our political system) from borrowing more.. and it must work to restore faith by curbing deficits.

You just saw an example of it with Obama...
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This is absolutely a false argument you are putting forth here. And going back to our headache analogy, it is essentially this: you are claiming that, as long as the doctor can convince the patient that they will get a headache unless they take medicine, that amounts to the prevention of a headache. It is completely circular. And not only is it circular, you still haven't demonstrated anything. You still have zero proof that anything was prevented (your original claim, before you shifted over to the "people's behavior itself is evidence of prevention" baloney).

These are the FACTS: despite all of the conditions I have previously mentioned, the government has NEVER been constrained from borrowing and spending when it needs to. It doesn't matter if the people think that the debt is too high - people have believed that for 35 years. It does not stop government borrowing, and it does not stop government spending. There is no better proof of that than the money we came up with in 2008. And that credit downgrade you like to bring up all the time? It changed NOTHING, even though the great bulk of idiots were worried about it. Short-term debt was selling for a zero yield right after the downgrade, to bond traders who actually understood that the ratings were bunk. So you blew that point.

You just claimed that, in the real world, "the economy will suffer because people/governments/economies will react negatively to such money creation."

PROVE IT. Show me some instances where our government increased the rate at which they create money that correlate to a "suffering economy." If anything, you will find just the opposite. Increased deficit spending adds to GDP. You just BSed yourself up a tree with that claim.
 
Captain America said:
I am reminded of an old comic book I used to read as a child. A Superman world where left was right, right was wrong and up was down. If memory serves me correctly, it was called Bizarro World. Their planet was cubed.

Humans are so unique.
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That's just the point. Who is in the real world and who is in the Bizzaro World? Both sides think they are in the real world. We could all be living in a hologram for all we know. Physicists discover 'clearest evidence yet' that the Universe is a hologram | The Independent
 
jaeger19 said:
The debt changes peoples behavior.. because how they perceive it.. influences their decisions. Its really that easy.

See.. the "instructions" as you call them are an invalid discussion. Everyone who understands a fiat system understands that there is no single authority that can stop the US from printing all the money it would like to. Basically it can create dollars at will and always "pay its bills"... that's a fiat currency.

However.. that's a theoretical world. In the real world.. the economy will suffer because people/governments/economies will react negatively to such money creation.

If you have a low credit score.. you can't get a loan.

If American has too much debt/deficit.. it constrains the government (through our political system) from borrowing more.. and it must work to restore faith by curbing deficits.

You just saw an example of it with Obama...
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WHY does it change their behavior? What is the mechanism? What is the reason for the behavioral change?

Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
the government has NEVER been constrained from borrowing and spending.
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Finally you admit that there are no limits to the nation's debt. Was that really so hard? Why couldn't you man up to your beliefs a long time ago? Why continually deny you said it when you say it all the time?
 
I thought in the U.S. anyone in poverty, gets money and benefits such that the are effectively not "living in poverty", currently. I realize some don't take advantage of thse things, or have mental illness that prevents them from signing up, or are homeless by choice, etc. But don't we largely lift people out of poverty today? I think we're trying to extend healthcare nationally to the poor, Republicans seem to be simultaneously for and against that. And liberals are sometimes pushing for possibly pre-K and 4 years of college, and maybe a little more maternity type leave.
 
Moderate Right said:
Finally you admit that there are no limits to the nation's debt. Was that really so hard? Why couldn't you man up to your beliefs a long time ago? Why continually deny you said it when you say it all the time?
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Wow - just when I thought you had reached the limits of dumb posts, you come up with this gem.

You are beyond clueless. It's like you go out of your way to be wrong.
 
Critter7r said:
WHY does it change their behavior? What is the mechanism? What is the reason for the behavioral change?

Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk
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Ultimately it doesn't matter Critter.
 
Conservatism and liberalism are philosophies rarely applied by our elected officials, most of whom gravitate towards the failed policies of the establishment. The swearing in process of our elected officials seems to snatch any philosophy they have subscribed to in the past.

Why do Republicans always expand government? Why was our liberal president such a Drone Hawk? Why don't those who subscribe to such philosophies abandon their principles and support them? Winning seems to favor political integrity.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
This is absolutely a false argument you are putting forth here.

You just claimed that, in the real world, "the economy will suffer because people/governments/economies will react negatively to such money creation."

PROVE IT. Show me some instances where our government increased the rate at which they create money that correlate to a "suffering economy." If anything, you will find just the opposite. Increased deficit spending adds to GDP. You just BSed yourself up a tree with that claim.
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john... listen.. its clear you don't understand objective reasoning and a hierarchy of evidence. the irony is that you are the one that has no proof.

I hate to lecture.. but clearly you need to have a lecture.

My premise... that debt/deficit matter and when its too high (or perceived too high if you prefer), then it acts as a constraint on borrowing and spending.

Evidence:

Debt matters to individuals. If an individual has too much debt then it becomes difficult for them to borrow and thus spend. Creditors/banks etc.. will act to curtail loaning to people when its perceived their debt and spending is too high.

Now.. is this weak evidence? Clearly.. individuals are not governments so on and so forth.

HOWEVER IT IS EVIDENCE. Weak.. but again EVIDENCE of mechanisms that curtail spending and borrowing when debt/spending are perceived too high.

Okay.. further evidence: Corporations and larger institutions.

there are examples of not just individuals but much much larger entitites.. corporations etc finance debt by issuing bonds/stocks.. that experience problems with borrowing/spending when their debt/spending is perceived as too high. So now you have evidence that bondholders/stockholders are reluctant to buy into debt/give credit when the debt/spending is perceived as too high.

Now.. is it strong evidence? Of course not because corporations aren't governments.. they don't have powers of taxation etc. they can't create currency.

BUT IT IS EVIDENCE...that's supports the premise regarding debt and deficit.

now.. is there evidence of governments getting in trouble when their debt/spending has gotten too high? Well yes.. multiple examples.. most recently Greece and Venezuela.

Now.. this is definitely strong evidence. they are both large countries,, with complex and diverse economies. They are developed nations. Now of course.. Greece gave up their fiat currency but Venezuela has a fiat currency.
Of course neither of the countries are exactly like the US.. not as large and their economies not as strong.

HOWEVER.. it IS evidence supporting my premise regarding debt and deficit.
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Now lets look at further evidence.

]Has the US every had problems with debt and deficit? Well.. we are definitely concerned with it. We have multiple times curbed spending/curbed deficits in response to a perception that debt and deficit is too high. We have definitely have evidence that the general population is concerned about the debt and deficit.. particularly when its perceived as too high.. and it crosses party lines as well.

So again.. this is more evidence that debt and deficit in America matter.

so the fact is that there is a plethora of evidentiary support that supports my premise.

Now. .is it as strong as an example of the US suffering a crisis because of too high debt and deficit.. like in Venezuala? Of course not. But its obvious why such evidence does not exist.. and that's because the US has taken multiple steps to insure that does not happen.
(just like we don't have studies that throw people out of planes without parachutes to prove that falling from 8000 feet without a parachute will kill you)

So the facts are John.. there is evidence of my premise.

So.. lets look AT YOUR EVIDENCE...


Is the strong evidence to suggest individuals can spend with impunity? No

Is there strong evidence to suggest corporations can spend with impunity? No

Is there strong evidence that other countries can spend and spend without any concern over consequences? no

Is there strong evidence that the US can spend as you suggest.. over and over without any consequences? No.. since we take steps to avoid doing such.

So the reality is John..

YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR PREMISE.

What you argue.. is that because my evidence.. which supports my premise.. does not reach to the highest level of an example of a crisis in the US.. then naturally your premise is correct.

that's an example of a false argument john.,

Sorry but the reality is that comparing the two premises.. yours and mine... mine has tons of evidence that supports it...

While you have no evidence to support your premise except your appeal to authority (MMT). that's it.
 
jaeger19 said:
YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR PREMISE.
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The irony, the demand was for you to give evidence of your claim, instead what we have is rhetoric diversion.....as always. The discussion is about the US, not individual states of union, not countries ravaged by their main export being undercut by market forces beyond their control, not corporations who you bring up and then toss out because...well....they are NOT govts.

What I really wonder about is if you realize just how little hard currency makes up the US monetary system, since your focus seems to be on "printing dollars".
 
Gimmesometruth said:
The irony, the demand was for you to give evidence of your claim, instead what we have is rhetoric diversion.....as always. The discussion is about the US, not individual states of union, not countries ravaged by their main export being undercut by market forces beyond their control, not corporations who you bring up and then toss out because...well....they are NOT govts.

What I really wonder about is if you realize just how little hard currency makes up the US monetary system, since your focus seems to be on "printing dollars".
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There is no more rhetoric than the rhetoric you guys spew. You are blind as a bat to anything but biased liberal principles and wanting to write blank checks again and again and again.
 
jaeger19 said:
Sorry but the reality is that comparing the two premises.. yours and mine... mine has tons of evidence that supports it...

While you have no evidence to support your premise except your appeal to authority (MMT). that's it.
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Thanks for laying out in plain sight what a weak argument you have, anyway.

I don't need evidence. You (actually, moronic right) made the claim, not me. It's your job to provide evidence (yours stinks, btw), and my job to point out that you have no evidence (which I have done, over and over), and that the crap you are throwing in my path is not relevant (it isn't).

So let's revisit the original argument, because you have sidestepped so many times it's easy to lose sight of it.

Moderate Right said:
...Excessive debt is bad and continually writing blank checks is bad. 20 Trillion dollars is bad...
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$20 trillion is what m.r. believes is the present level of debt, a number he has thrown around a number of times in that context, so we are talking about today's level of debt (whatever it is, exactly) being BAD, as in harmful to the economy. We aren't talking about "almost too much, it's a good thing we have already taken measures to lower the deficit levels," we are talking about "today's debt is too high and is causing harm to the economy." A totally unsupported claim that moronic abandoned as soon as you picked up his flag. Neither one of you has even come close to backing up that bit of stupidity.

Then you moved on to your circular (and still unsupported) claim that, "hey, if deficits and debt weren't harmful, we wouldn't be worrying about them at all" argument. Still no evidence that any harm has taken place. The crap you put forth, even you admit that it's weak. Which is an understatement. But you still maintain that, since I have no evidence, your weak-ass evidence wins. Well, no.

I have 35 years of steady deficit spending and increasing debt combined with low inflation, low interest rates, no trouble spending, and a healthy economy.

You lose.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
The irony, the demand was for you to give evidence of your claim, instead what we have is rhetoric diversion.....as always. The discussion is about the US, not individual states of union, not countries ravaged by their main export being undercut by market forces beyond their control, not corporations who you bring up and then toss out because...well....they are NOT govts.

What I really wonder about is if you realize just how little hard currency makes up the US monetary system, since your focus seems to be on "printing dollars".
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Exactly.. and that's the fallacy of your argument.

What you are claiming is that because the US has not spent to the point of causing a problem... its evidence that it can spend without causing a problem... despite the fact that the US takes care NOT to spend so much its a problem.
 
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