Conservatism vs Liberalism

jaeger19 said:

Don't bother.. he is just stirring a pot he knows nothing about. He doesn't know our politics but assumes he does. As he stated.. he is Canadian.

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Maybe they could dig an underground tunnel from Mexico to Canada.

jdog said:

My personal opinion is that the Oligarchs at some point in the not too distant future are going to eliminate a large percentage of the present population.

The peasants are only of use to the Oligarchs as labor and to fight wars should the need arise. It will not be long before automation makes the majority of people obsolete for both purposes.

It is the reason that the Oligarchs are pushing the agenda's they are. They realize at some point without jobs the unwashed masses would rise up against them and finally wise up to the conclusion they have been screwed.

So they are very motivated to disarm the population, and to put the government in charge of food, water, transportation, health care, and every other area that is essential for survival. It is why we are moving to a cashless system and why law enforcement has been militarized. They know what is coming and they are stacking the deck in their own favor.

As you said, there is no market solution other than to drastically reduce the worldwide population to the point where the need for labor meets the actual number of breathing humans.

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That is a tall order. Well, if you really believe that, do you have your emergency bunker? With guns, ammo, food, medicine, and hygenics? I mean that's some gigantic hypothetical speculation. You believe in the illuminati and all that?

Moderate Right said:

Maybe they could dig an underground tunnel from Mexico to Canada.

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We need a wall to stop the illegal refugees that've been walking across the border from the US. We'll make the US pay to build it.

Grand Mal said:

Look at what? All I have is your word for it that such a speech transcript even exists, do you really think I'm going to spend any time fact-checking you?
Up to you, laddybuck, is this a place for discussion or just a blank box that you can type anything you want into, post it 'on the internet', and feel like you've had a say?
As for conservatives, go ahead, set me straight. Tell me how conservatives don't advocate meek, complacent obedience to authority. Show me an example of conservative defiance of legal authority.

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I am not doing your research for you, your laziness is why you are ignorant to begin with so if you want to remain ignorant I really do not care.
As far as the second issue, you do not even have a clue what a conservative is. You are under some uneducated impression that Republicans are conservatives. They are not .
Republicans are slightly above Democrats on the liberal / conservative scale.
Absolute conservatives are Anarchists, slightly more liberal than Anarchists are Libertarians. What makes a conservative is the belief that individuals are sovereign and that government is inherently evil. Obedience to authority is the philosophy of liberals who want government to be the authority and master over the individuals. Those who demand the government be subservient and the servant of the people are conservatives.
I should not be surprised by your statements, you cannot expect a Canadian to understand the first thing about sovereignty.

jdog said:

I am not doing your research for you, your laziness is why you are ignorant to begin with so if you want to remain ignorant I really do not care.
As far as the second issue, you do not even have a clue what a conservative is. You are under some uneducated impression that Republicans are conservatives. They are not .
Republicans are slightly above Democrats on the liberal / conservative scale.
Absolute conservatives are Anarchists, slightly more liberal than Anarchists are Libertarians. What makes a conservative is the belief that individuals are sovereign and that government is inherently evil. Obedience to authority is the philosophy of liberals who want government to be the authority and master over the individuals. Those who demand the government be subservient and the servant of the people are conservatives.
therefore there needs to ba a law against it. Liberals believe it's laws against pot? Because they believe people shouldn't smoke itI should not be surprised by your statements, you cannot expect a Canadian to understand the first thing about sovereignty.

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Good lord, what a pile of crap. Anarchists are conservative? Look, conservatives believe that society can be designed by legislation. Why do conservatives support laws against pot? Because they believe people shouldn't smoke it, therefore there needs to be laws against it. Why do liberals believe pot should be legal? Because we think each individual has the right and responsibility to make his own decision. We believe there needs to be a damn good reason for something to be illegal before a law is justified. That's called keeping the government the hell out of my life.
The last fight was about gay marriage. Conservatives say gays shouldn't get married so there needs to be a law against it. Liberals say there needs to be a damned good reason for a law against what someone wants to do, and you don't have one. Government interference in peope's lives again.
The next fight will be asissted suicide. Conservatives will say people shouldn't commit suicide so there needs to be a law against it. More government control. Liberals say it's each individual's responsibility to make those decisions.
Conservatives talk about small government and individual rights but when the rubber meets the road they'll support authoritarianism every time. And liberals will fight against conservative authoritarianism to win personal rights and freedoms.
Every right and freedom you enjoy was won for you by liberals. And I fully expect your reply to be, "You're wrong, you don't know nuthin',!" and not a single mention of a single point in my post. Please, prove me wrong.

Grand Mal said:

Good lord, what a pile of crap. Anarchists are conservative? Look, conservatives believe that society can be designed by legislation. Why do conservatives support laws against pot? Because they believe people shouldn't smoke it, therefore there needs to be laws against it. Why do liberals believe pot should be legal? Because we think each individual has the right and responsibility to make his own decision. We believe there needs to be a damn good reason for something to be illegal before a law is justified. That's called keeping the government the hell out of my life.
The last fight was about gay marriage. Conservatives say gays shouldn't get married so there needs to be a law against it. Liberals say there needs to be a damned good reason for a law against what someone wants to do, and you don't have one. Government interference in peope's lives again.
The next fight will be asissted suicide. Conservatives will say people shouldn't commit suicide so there needs to be a law against it. More government control. Liberals say it's each individual's responsibility to make those decisions.
Conservatives talk about small government and individual rights but when the rubber meets the road they'll support authoritarianism every time. And liberals will fight against conservative authoritarianism to win personal rights and freedoms.
Every right and freedom you enjoy was won for you by liberals. And I fully expect your reply to be, "You're wrong, you don't know nuthin',!" and not a single mention of a single point in my post. Please, prove me wrong.

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Damned fine post. I would argue that conservatives have co-opted the phrase, "I want the gubmint outta my life." without fully understanding that they support government intervention in people's social lives, based upon aging morality. It's also a snappy catchphrase that sounds nice. But, what conservatives really mean is, "I don't want to contribute to anyone else's life because I have mine and **** everyone else."

Whenever I point this out to people in this forum. The spending forum, conservatives get all pissy and quit the argument because they have ****ty talking points. Great example is I have a great argument for extending k-12 to k-16, for public universities. Conservatives get all butt hurt and tell me that they don't want "the gubmint in education because the gubmint is the problem." And then when I tell them they're basically advocating for the abolition of public schools, they get all pissy.

Winston said:

Damned fine post. I would argue that conservatives have co-opted the phrase, "I want the gubmint outta my life." without fully understanding that they support government intervention in people's social lives, based upon aging morality. It's also a snappy catchphrase that sounds nice. But, what conservatives really mean is, "I don't want to contribute to anyone else's life because I have mine and **** everyone else."

Whenever I point this out to people in this forum. The spending forum, conservatives get all pissy and quit the argument because they have ****ty talking points. Great example is I have a great argument for extending k-12 to k-16, for public universities. Conservatives get all butt hurt and tell me that they don't want "the gubmint in education because the gubmint is the problem." And then when I tell them they're basically advocating for the abolition of public schools, they get all pissy.

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Conservatives talk the liberal values of individual freedom from government influence but they will always support the authority of the government over the rights of the individual. Conservatives abhor dissention, protest, disobedience to the Daddy state. They love a strong government, a stern-but-fair Daddy state that punishes disobedience promptly and severly. A conservative will ever advocate civil disobedience, for example, but for a liberal civil disobedience is where resistance to bad laws start. And it progresses from there, until the bad law is removed.

Grand Mal said:

Good lord, what a pile of crap. Anarchists are conservative? Look, conservatives believe that society can be designed by legislation. Why do conservatives support laws against pot? Because they believe people shouldn't smoke it, therefore there needs to be laws against it. Why do liberals believe pot should be legal? Because we think each individual has the right and responsibility to make his own decision. We believe there needs to be a damn good reason for something to be illegal before a law is justified. That's called keeping the government the hell out of my life.

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Good lord, what a pile of crap. There are different levels of Conservatives and Liberals and many levels of these two types agree on many things. Obama was anti-pot legalization. So was Clinton (her career is over) and her Husband. In fact most liberals are anti-legalization (party wise). In fact the modern Liberal is neo-Liberalism which is very firm on the state's rule over the masses which is in line with neo-cons who actually come neo-liberalism movement.

Then you have cases like Ohio were a very Republican state legalized ohio medical marijuana. But the people of the state both Republican and Conservative support the idea of legalization in some form. So Ohio's Government did it's job. But thats because even Gov. John Kasich doesn't fall into the label traps you have set out.

Then there is the libertarians which are in both parties and they align very closes on policies but how differ on how to get there the best way.. Reality is the parties game is BULL****!

Grand Mal said:

The last fight was about gay marriage. Conservatives say gays shouldn't get married so there needs to be a law against it. Liberals say there needs to be a damned good reason for a law against what someone wants to do, and you don't have one. Government interference in peope's lives again.

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You seriously are clueless. DOMA was signed by Clinton. The fight was about the definition of marriage per federal law (DOMA) and the Federal Government's right to regulate marriage vs State's rights since the act of marriage in the US is secular in nature (i.e. doesn't matter what religion you are, it's recognized).. Oooh the dirty little phrase liberals hate.. State's rights. Imagine that, Gay Marriage movement was in fact a State's right movement.

Grand Mal said:

The next fight will be asissted suicide. Conservatives will say people shouldn't commit suicide so there needs to be a law against it. More government control. Liberals say it's each individual's responsibility to make those decisions.

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No, it won't be. The next fight will be about legalization of drugs. Nobody gives a flying **** about assisted suicide because it's already common practice under the guise of pain management.

Grand Mal said:

Conservatives talk about small government and individual rights but when the rubber meets the road they'll support authoritarianism every time. And liberals will fight against conservative authoritarianism to win personal rights and freedoms.
Every right and freedom you enjoy was won for you by liberals. And I fully expect your reply to be, "You're wrong, you don't know nuthin',!" and not a single mention of a single point in my post. Please, prove me wrong.

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Liberals don't win freedoms. Liberals are for legalization of pot but only if it's taxed and bought directly from a STATE sanctioned dealer. That's no freedom, that's typical Statism. Freedom is decriminalization without having to pay a tax to use it. It's why sin taxes are anti-freedom, just like liberals going after tobacco usage by raising taxes on it and banning it. So bugger off with your definition of freedom.

Winston said:

That is a tall order. Well, if you really believe that, do you have your emergency bunker? With guns, ammo, food, medicine, and hygenics? I mean that's some gigantic hypothetical speculation. You believe in the illuminati and all that?

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You asked my opinion.
You can stick your head in the sand like an ostrich if you want, but it is not going to change what is happening. Your status is quickly changing from an asset to a liability. I suppose you could believe that the world is actually run by benevolent humanitarians who are looking out after your best interests if you want, but that is about as realistic as the snowflakes who think they are going to make 40k a year wearing a paper hat and asking if you would like fries with that order......

Grand Mal said:

Good lord, what a pile of crap. Anarchists are conservative? Look, conservatives believe that society can be designed by legislation. Why do conservatives support laws against pot? Because they believe people shouldn't smoke it, therefore there needs to be laws against it. Why do liberals believe pot should be legal? Because we think each individual has the right and responsibility to make his own decision. We believe there needs to be a damn good reason for something to be illegal before a law is justified. That's called keeping the government the hell out of my life.
The last fight was about gay marriage. Conservatives say gays shouldn't get married so there needs to be a law against it. Liberals say there needs to be a damned good reason for a law against what someone wants to do, and you don't have one. Government interference in peope's lives again.
The next fight will be asissted suicide. Conservatives will say people shouldn't commit suicide so there needs to be a law against it. More government control. Liberals say it's each individual's responsibility to make those decisions.
Conservatives talk about small government and individual rights but when the rubber meets the road they'll support authoritarianism every time. And liberals will fight against conservative authoritarianism to win personal rights and freedoms.
Every right and freedom you enjoy was won for you by liberals. And I fully expect your reply to be, "You're wrong, you don't know nuthin',!" and not a single mention of a single point in my post. Please, prove me wrong.

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You are really not that sharp are you? Lets try this again, you keep confusing conservatives with Republicans. Republicans are not conservatives, they are liberals who, just like their Democrat brethren, want to use government to suppress the rights of individuals.

A conservative is someone who believes that the individual is superior in status over the government and that government is strictly controlled in its power by the Constitution which is a contract between the government and the citizens.

Liberals, like Democrat's and Republicans believe that government can usurp the power to ignore the rights of individuals so long as they agree with what the government is doing.
Democrats think it is OK to steal someone's money, so long as you give them some. Republicans think they can tell other people what they think they can smoke or screw.
Libertarians are the true conservatives because they realize that government can (legally) only protect someone's rights, not violate them. It is illegal for the government to steal one persons money and give it to another, just as it is illegal for them to throw you in jail for your choice of medicines.

Now I know all this probably went about a mile over your head, but perhaps one day you will be smart enough to understand...

jaeger19 said:

And I pointed out that when people.. in the conversations context liberals.. propose we stop enforcing the law on illegal immigration then yes they want an open border.

With you liberals.. it seems that you if you don't like the way a debate is going.. then you run away with the goal posts.

YES.. those illegal immigrants are coming at the behest of greedy bastards who want to make big bucks off cheap labor and don't care who suffers for it.

SO.. you might just ask you liberal self why you support candidates like Hillary and Bernie that want to continue and encourage that very thing.. In addition.. I don't see many republican controlled cities in red states declaring themselves sanctuary cities.. but I certainly see it in democrat controlled cities. Maybe you can explain that to me as well. Why is your party so filled with people that want to see the rich get richer on the backs of the working poor and middle class?

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Completely unsupported statement, but I might as well throw it out there that it's unlikely that many of the farm and factory owners employing these illegals identify with the Democratic Party.

Critter7r said:

Completely unsupported statement, but I might as well throw it out there that it's unlikely that many of the farm and factory owners employing these illegals identify with the Democratic Party.

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Come on .. You're kidding right? . Its a completely supported statement.

You need to stop simply disagreeing to disagree with me.

farm and factory owners employing these illegals identify with the Democratic Party

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business identifies with the party that will help them the most and on which issue. Its that simple.

The Democratic Governors Association and Republican Governors Association share 48 top donors, a Center for Responsive Politics analysis of the group’s top 100 non-individual donors indicates. Of these 48 donors, 45 are corporations and three are trade associations, the Center finds. This reinforces the maxim that companies seek access to politicians, and by donating to both parties, they ensure that access regardless of which party holds majority.

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Grand Mal said:

Conservatives talk the liberal values of individual freedom from government influence but they will always support the authority of the government over the rights of the individual. Conservatives abhor dissention, protest, disobedience to the Daddy state. They love a strong government, a stern-but-fair Daddy state that punishes disobedience promptly and severly. A conservative will ever advocate civil disobedience, for example, but for a liberal civil disobedience is where resistance to bad laws start. And it progresses from there, until the bad law is removed.

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Well.. that's as wrong as wrong can be.. but whatever floats your boat there.

Moderate Right said:

Maybe they could dig an underground tunnel from Mexico to Canada.

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I am still waiting for all our liberals that claimed they were moving to Canada if trump got elected to move.

jaeger19 said:

I am still waiting for all our liberals that claimed they were moving to Canada if trump got elected to move.

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I'm thinking that once the Conservatives realize how truly ****ed up Trump and his family is - and how they will be draining the conservative swamps - they'll be lining up to move to Canada.

jaeger19 said:

Come on .. You're kidding right? . Its a completely supported statement.

You need to stop simply disagreeing to disagree with me.

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I was prefacing my completely unsupported statement by letting everyone know that I knew I was putting it out there without any support. I wasn't disagreeing with you.

business identifies with the party that will help them the most and on which issue. Its that simple.

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Why would all those businesses support the party that advocates getting rid of their cheap labor? (not saying they don't, just wondering why they would).

Critter7r said:

I was prefacing my completely unsupported statement by letting everyone know that I knew I was putting it out there without any support. I wasn't disagreeing with you.



Why would all those businesses support the party that advocates getting rid of their cheap labor? (not saying they don't, just wondering why they would).

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No worries.. my bad.

Why would all those businesses support the party that advocates getting rid of their cheap labor? (not saying they don't, just wondering why they would).

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Great question... several reasons.

1. First you need access. And frankly.. its a pay to play game when it comes to access to your politicians. If you want to have say in any legislation,, immigration or otherwise.. you pay to play with the part that tends to be in power. In some states, Democrats hold sway.. and if I want access to have ANY influence.. you better be giving to the democratic party. Often of course you try to help democrats in the primary that are more sympathetic to the majority of your needs. In states where republicans hold sway.. If I want access.. I better be giving to republican candidates. in states where it swings? I better be giving to both parties to hedge my bets.

2. Secondly.. companies compete with each other on multiple levels. So while my agro business benefits from the lower wages caused by illegal immigration (even though I don't hire illegal immigrants knowingly, others in the area do and that lowers wages overall) my healthcare, and retail business benefit from people having better wages... and so companies in those industries are more likely to be against illegal immigration.

3. Few companies have the luxury of being one issue companies. Most want influence on a range of different things from taxes, to unions, to regulations, to immigration/illegal immigration, to trade deals, to..... Rarely do you find a party or a politician that is 100% in your camp. Unless you have REALLY big dollars.. like insurance company or big oil money or banking..