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Conservatism vs Liberalism

American said:
That's irrelevant, because ACA was suppose to cost less, not more. So find someone else if you want to deflect away from Obama's failure.
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Cost less than what? Your dismissive attitude betrays your ignorance.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Of course, even Jesus said that:

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Good summation of the problem we have. People actually want to take religious nonsense and apply it to government. The role of government is not to follow the teachings of Jesus. It is to provide the greatest good for the greatest numbers for the longest period of time. Yes, government should attempt to educate and train people, and heal them, but at some point, government should not waste resources on people unwilling or unable to take care of themselves. To do so takes resources from those who can benefit from those resources and pass on more resources to others.
There is too much religious morality in social justice and irrelevant concern for the weak, poor, and sick. Screw them. That is not the role of government. Separate church and state.
 
I like the words of FDR in his 1935 SOTU:
We have here a human as well as an economic problem. When humane considerations are concerned, Americans give them precedence. The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole our relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit. It is inimical to the dictates of a sound policy. It is in violation of the traditions of America. Work must be found for able-bodied but destitute workers.
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Too many people have forgotten that relief (welfare/entitlements) are a narcotic.
 
Moot said:
Cost less than what? Your dismissive attitude betrays your ignorance.
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If you have to ask a question like that, then you've been absent for the last 8 years, and should just sit down.
 
American said:
...How do we get people out of poverty?...
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It's impossible to not do something, but something that is possible is to start doing something different. People simply can not "get out" of poverty (or anything else for that matter) unless they are moving in to something that's different.

So what's the plan, you talking about moving them into what, 'wealth'? Just what does that look like? Also, pse tell me who are these "people" you're talking about who are in what you're calling poverty? Have they actually said they want to move somewhere? Where?

This is not idle banter (for me at least), I really would like to hear your thots -I'd dearly love to hear a fresh take. For decades I've been working to set/up manage community development projects overseas and I got kids who've ended up getting into international econ development careers.

So please share.
 
American said:
If you have to ask a question like that, then you've been absent for the last 8 years, and should just sit down.
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If you can't answer the question...then you're the one that should sit down.
 
Moderate Right said:
Anyone who doesn't believe that there are indeed lazy ass bums who want to mooch off others is a sucker. These moochers should suffer and be poor. I don't care about any of them. People legitimately in need of help is a different story and our country does not help them enough.
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The problem is that you would just as soon dismantle the system that helps the vast majority (the genuinely needy) in order to spite the overwhelming minority (the moochers).

There are phrases for that, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", and "cutting off your nose to spite your face".
 
Moot said:
The insurance companies are a big part of the problem....and the reason we don't have single pay universal coverage.


4. Healthcare is not Consumerized

Another reason for the rise in health insurance costs is healthcare is not yet fully consumerized. Most people do not pay directly for their health insurance -- their employer does. As a result, most people are disconnected from making truly informed decisions about their cost of care and their coverage.

5. Lack of Cost Transparency

Despite a wealth of information at our fingertips via medical journals and the Internet, there is no uniform or quick way to understand treatment options and the costs associated with them. This lack of cost transparency means consumers cannot make truly informed decisions - even if they are savvy healthcare consumers.

6. Carrier Consolidation

As Reid Rasmussen reported in a Benefits Pro article earlier this month, carrier consolidation will lead to decreased cost competition and higher costs. For example, the five largest health insurance companies are reducing to three with Aetna (#3) buying Humana (#5), and Anthem (#2) absorbing Cigna (#4). Additionally Assurant exited the health insurance business last year, 22 of the 23 PPACA-created co-ops have closed, and United Healthcare made news this month as they are leaving many ACA Marketplaces.

7. Fewer Plan Options & Smaller Provider Networks

As healthcare and health insurance costs rise, health insurance companies need a way to control costs. One approach is to limit plans offered. Another is to limit the provider networks. The result? Consumers in many markets are finding fewer plan options and have reduced access to doctors and providers.


https://www.zanebenefits.com/blog/8-reasons-health-insurance-costs-continue-to-rise​


There is never going to be lower healthcare costs if you don't stop blaming the left.
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I agree that pricing should be more transparent, but you are never going to be able to make truly informed decisions as the treatments because you don't have a decade of education and training in medicine. The reason for having a heavy government involvement in healthcare is that as a sector it doesn't adhere to the laws of supply and demand, it is a market failure.

For example, cancer treatments can go up 500%, and there will not be a reduction in the number of cancer patients. Insulin can triple in cost and there will not be a reduction in the number of diabetics. Cardiologists can double the cost of open heart surgery and there will not be a reduction in patients that need it. That is the problem with thinking there is some market solution to healthcare. Sure with better price transparency a consumer can make better choices on ancillary services like medical imaging, some prescription drugs, and some optional outpatient treatments, but there are all just a tiny fraction of over all health spending. The costs of routine care are not that high now, its the costs of life saving care that growing at an unsustainable rate. You can't have a market based solution with its the following scenario:

You have cancer, you can either pay whatever the costs of treatment for that cancer, or die a horrible death. In such a situation, the provider of the services can charge whatever they want and you can't do anything about it. That is why no other modern developed nation on earth wants our healthcare system.

In the end, the problem is not insurers or the size of the provider networks. It is the fact that in this county a neurologist can look at your CT scan, spend no more than 5 minutes of their time signing off on it, and bill you thousands of dollars. In this country, cancer treatments routinely cost you 30k to 100k a month. We pay way too much for what we get, and that is the problem.
 
Moot said:
ACA insured over 20 million that didn't have insurance before. The ACA put caps on how much insurance companies could raise your premiums whereas before there was nothing to stop them.


I think the insurance companies are the problem, not the solution to affordable healthcare. I wish we didn't need them.
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Definitely. Them and lawyers. Malpractice insurance can cost 10-20 times in the US what it does in Canada. An American doctor can easily spend $230,000 per year on insurance. That's not a bad annual income, before he starts to make his own annual income.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
It would not hurt to stop importing the low wage low skilled poor from so many other countries. We need to pay our own folks more, scaled back immigration reduces the over abundance in labor, which would then boil down to supply and demand. What will you pay an American worker?
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Whatever it is, it's more than you will pay for one in Bangladesh, or even for a robot on the factory floor. And so the free market is moving away from the American worker. The only way to bring those jobs back to the unskilled American worker is to tax and tariff free enterprise to keep their jobs here, which is what Trump wants to do. It's an interesting idea, and we will see if he is successful at his efforts. But it's interesting that "conservatives" who are always talking about small government and non-interference and the magic of free markets are the ones voting for Trump to do all this. It reeks of hypocrisy.

Gaugingcatenate said:
Work, organization, goals... all these help people in myriad ways and gets them used to what a good life requires...

Effort.
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I see. So back in 2008, when millions of Americans were losing their jobs, businesses, homes, etc... it was all because suddenly, all tens of millions of them, just over the course of a few months, decided to not have goals, become stupid and lazy, and not be organized. Rather than government stepping in to try to mitigate the pain, they should have just been called stupid and lazy and forced to face the full pain of the great recession. That would have fixed the recession much faster, right?

Somehow that explanation seems a bit simplistic, don't you think? Do you think there are larger socioeconomic/historical forces at play, ones which governments can help direct, which play a role in whether someone is poor or wealthy?
 
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Eric7216 said:
There is too much religious morality in social justice and irrelevant concern for the weak, poor, and sick. Screw them. That is not the role of government. Separate church and state.
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The reason humans established civilization and systems of law, order, and justice, was because they didn't like how things worked when left free out in nature: Darwinism, nature red in tooth and claw, survival of the fittest, etc... One of the important purposes of a system of law and justice are to protect the most weak and vulnerable in a society. This is not a religious thing. All human societies have some conception of justice.
 
Moot said:
Empathy is the glue that holds civilized society together.


"To empathize is to civilize and to civilize is to empathize"....

https://www.ted.com/talks/jeremy_rifkin_on_the_empathic_civilization
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Not even going to look at your video. I could give a rats ass about the lazy that just want to mooch off of others. They can be poor and stay poor and have miserable lives until they want to actually live a useful life. If they don't, they don't. The choice is theirs.
 
Moderate Right said:
Not even going to look at your video. I could give a rats ass about the lazy that just want to mooch off of others. They can be poor and stay poor and have miserable lives until they want to actually live a useful life. If they don't, they don't. The choice is theirs.
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It's amusing to see that Conservatives think that only lazy people hit hard times. If you are good looking and hardworking like them, nothing bad should ever happen to you, and you should never need any help, right?

Well, at least that's the theory these Einstein Trump supporters were going on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtfeQQ7JBwk

Oops!
 
Critter7r said:
The problem is that you would just as soon dismantle the system that helps the vast majority (the genuinely needy) in order to spite the overwhelming minority (the moochers).

There are phrases for that, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", and "cutting off your nose to spite your face".
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Dishonesty is rampant. There are millions of people playing federal and state governments for suckers. It has to stop. I don't buy the argument that in order to help 100 legitimate people that you have to keep another 100 in the bathwater.
 
Moderate Right said:
Not even going to look at your video. I could give a rats ass about the lazy that just want to mooch off of others. They can be poor and stay poor and have miserable lives until they want to actually live a useful life. If they don't, they don't. The choice is theirs.
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Too lazy to look at a short video?

Stereotyping and spewing ignorant talking points is pretty lazy, too. It's shows a lack of critical thought and education...both of which involve hard work and effort.
 
ataraxia said:
It's amusing to see that Conservatives think that only lazy people hit hard times. If you are good looking and hardworking like them, nothing bad should ever happen to you, and you should never need any help, right?

Well, at least that's the theory these Einstein Trump supporters were going on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtfeQQ7JBwk

Oops!
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I never said that. Please show where I said that. In fact, I specifically said that we don't do enough for those truly in need. The problem with the left is they think bums who can work but don't want to work and only want to mooch off of others are in need. They are only in need of a stiff kick in the butt.
 
Moot said:
Too lazy to look at a short video?

Stereotyping and spewing ignorant talking points is pretty lazy, too. It's shows a lack of critical thought and education...both of which involve hard work and effort.
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I have no need to listen to the left spew garbage that moochers are a Republican myth and do not exist. I have lived around them for decades.
 
Moderate Right said:
I never said that. Please show where I said that. In fact, I specifically said that we don't do enough for those truly in need. The problem with the left is they think bums who can work but don't want to work and only want to mooch off of others are in need. They are only in need of a stiff kick in the butt.
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What are you talking about? Over 95% of those on welfare, for example, have a job within a year. Taking away that welfare for them and their family is not going to help them get the job any faster. And most welfare programs already require recipients to work.

The idea that most people on welfare are able-bodied adults who are just too lazy to get a job and make an honest living is utterly false.

Most benefit programs require recipients to work in order to collect. Take Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), for example. Single parents receiving this grant must work at least 30 hours per week in order to be eligible, and two-parent families must work between 35 and 50 hours a week...

And furthermore, half of all food stamp recipients are children. More than 82% of all food stamp money goes to households that include children, elderly people, or people with disabilities.These are people who legally or physically cannot work and live at the mercy of the system.

So where are all of these able-bodied lazy adults who are luxuriating off of their benefits? They are a fabrication.

Most people on welfare are hardworking, taxpaying citizens, just like the rest of us. Or they are impoverished children, elders, or folks with disabilities.

But it’s a lot easier for welfare critics to take help away from people that they imagine are lazy and deceitful, so that false image lives on.
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https://groundswell.org/7-lies-about-welfare-that-many-people-believe-are-fact/
 
Moderate Right said:
I have no need to listen to the left spew garbage that moochers are a Republican myth and do not exist. I have lived around them for decades.
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Give us some statistics to the contrary then.
 
Moderate Right said:
I have no need to listen to the left spew garbage that moochers are a Republican myth and do not exist. I have lived around them for decades.
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Sure they exist. There are people who cheat the system. There are people who violate traffic lights too. But does that mean we should get rid of all traffic lights now?
 
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