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Incisor said:
Apart from rhetoric, how do you think Trump will "bring jobs back" to those states?
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He already has brought jobs back by stopping some from going. It's only been one month. Please explain what Hillary would have done to keep the higher paying manufacturing jobs here.
 
Moderate Right said:
Says the guy who would rather insult me than talk about the thread topic. Hypocrisy at it's finist, just what I expect from a liberal's liberal. Is it time to invite me down below again for a fight, where I beat the crap out of you before?
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Nobody has addressed me, nor do they have anything of mine to quote. The premise of the thread is pure speculation, for which i don't really care to comment.
 
Moderate Right said:
He already has brought jobs back by stopping some from going. It's only been one month. Please explain what Hillary would have done to keep the higher paying manufacturing jobs here.
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No, he didn't do that. Those businesses made those decisions long before Trump was elected President. And "stopping some from going" isn't the same thing as "bringing jobs back", it's a net negative. So as I said, apart from rhetoric, what else ya got? Nothing.

1. Manufacturing jobs are not high-paying. The average wage for a manufacturing job in the US is just $20/hr which comes to about $41K/yr before taxes.

2. Manufacturing jobs are physically demanding positions, so they're not jobs those old, white, dittoheads in the Rust Belt states could even do.

3. Automation has been happening for 40 years now and as anyone in the auto industry can tell you, robots take more jobs from Americans than Third World workers do. So unless you're building the robots to build robots, you're not going to create many manufacturing jobs.

We just aren't a manufacturing-based economy anymore and haven't been for a while. It's no coincidence that as trade relations were opened with authoritarian regimes (like Nixon with China, or Bush with Vietnam), the jobs moved to those places because they didn't need to worry about high workplace standards or decent pay. Again, this isn't something we can realistically do anything about. Business is going to move to where labor is cheapest. So if you're not going to lower American wages and working conditions to that of Third World nations, and you're not going to raise wages and working conditions in Third World Nations, you have to evolve your thinking and the economy to adapt to the change globalization hath wrought. What it hath wrought is the shifting of America from a manufacturing-based economy to a service-based economy. Which is a consequence that can be attributed to trickle-down, supply-side, voodoo economics, as it results in an economy that works for those at the top while exploiting everyone else.

Hillary Clinton understood this, and understood that the service industry is the new working class. She eventually backed a $15/hr minimum wage (But only because Bernie pressured her to do so). I would imagine her plans to create manufacturing jobs would be a lot like Obama's; supporting green initiatives and technology. As a result of Obama's Clean Energy investment, there are now more solar jobs than oil, coal, and natural gas combined.
 
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Incisor said:
No, he didn't do that. Those businesses made those decisions long before Trump was elected President. And "stopping some from going" isn't the same thing as "bringing jobs back", it's a net negative. So as I said, apart from rhetoric, what else ya got? Nothing.

1. Manufacturing jobs are not high-paying. The average wage for a manufacturing job in the US is just $20/hr which comes to about $41K/yr before taxes.

2. Manufacturing jobs are physically demanding positions, so they're not jobs those old, white, dittoheads in the Rust Belt states could even do.

3. Automation has been happening for 40 years now and as anyone in the auto industry can tell you, robots take more jobs from Americans than Third World workers do. So unless you're building the robots to build robots, you're not going to create many manufacturing jobs.

We just aren't a manufacturing-based economy anymore and haven't been for a while. It's no coincidence that as trade relations were opened with authoritarian regimes (like Nixon with China, or Bush with Vietnam), the jobs moved to those places because they didn't need to worry about high workplace standards or decent pay. Again, this isn't something we can realistically do anything about. Business is going to move to where labor is cheapest. So if you're not going to lower American wages and working conditions to that of Third World nations, and you're not going to raise wages and working conditions in Third World Nations, you have to evolve your thinking and the economy to adapt to the change globalization hath wrought. What it hath wrought is the shifting of America from a manufacturing-based economy to a service-based economy. Which is a consequence that can be attributed to trickle-down, supply-side, voodoo economics, as it results in an economy that works for those at the top while exploiting everyone else.

Hillary Clinton understood this, and understood that the service industry is the new working class. She eventually backed a $15/hr minimum wage (But only because Bernie pressured her to do so). I would imagine her plans to create manufacturing jobs would be a lot like Obama's; supporting green initiatives and technology. As a result of Obama's Clean Energy investment, there are now more solar jobs than oil, coal, and natural gas combined.
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But $20 per hour is much higher that the $15 per hour that you want Walmart and McDonalds to pay!
 
Moderate Right said:
But $20 per hour is much higher that the $15 per hour that you want Walmart and McDonalds to pay!
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But it's much less than "middle class" manufacturing jobs paid back in manufacturing's heyday.

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Critter7r said:
But it's much less than "middle class" manufacturing jobs paid back in manufacturing's heyday.

Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk
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So? It is you guys who want to fight for $15 (at Walmart and McDonalds) and yet you refuse to fight for $20. Do you even realize how stupid that is? Trump wants to fight for $20. That's why three blue states elected him president. They were sick and tired of you guys fighting for $15. These people don't even want to work at Walmart or McDonalds at all.
 
Moderate Right said:
So? It is you guys who want to fight for $15 (at Walmart and McDonalds) and yet you refuse to fight for $20. Do you even realize how stupid that is?
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lol

Have you really thought about this?

You complain that companies that are forced by government policies to increase their wages to $15 face a mortal threat, and that increasing their wages will wreak havoc -- such as companies firing employees, or going out of business, or increasing prices for consumers.

But you're perfectly fine with a different set of government polices that will... increase the labor costs for companies, and increase prices for consumers? Why is it that policies that force companies to pay more for labor is a total disaster, while another policy that forces companies to pay more for labor is our saving grace?

I've also made it VERY clear that the policies that Trump feverishly imagines will increase US manufacturing will backfire, in myriad ways -- for which you've provided no real response. Did you already forget? Do you need to review?

Ironically, it's also an analysis which shows why minimum wages are different than border taxes or tariffs or other protectionist measures... but not in a way that supports your argument. Doh!
 
Visbek said:
Trump's travel EO apparently dinged tourism by 17%. It went back up a little bit to 10% after it was overturned.

Trump?s Policies Have Already Taken a Toll on the Economy
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Using flight searches from a phone app as proof? That's a joke and a half.

Visbek said:
I seriously doubt that tourism is only about exchange rates. Aside from basic factors like safety, language access, general friendliness, tourist attractions and retail, people can certainly react to broader conditions. Nor does the US have a monopoly on nationalism.
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Tourism at the end of the day comes down to dollar and cents. If you can't afford to go, you can't go. US typically ranks in the top 5 but those issues of safety and language.. they have been problems for years in the US and that hasn't really been a problem. Again.. it's comes down to dollar and cents.


Visbek said:
For example: President Xi of China declared 2016 as "Chinese-US Tourism Year," and Chinese tourists spend close to $3 billion a year now in the US. Chinese citizens are generally very nationalistic, though, so if Trump continues to offend or insult China, it is unlikely they will choose to travel to the US.
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Chinese aren't gonna stop traveling to the US. China has too much invested in the US with businesses and tourism. So you are in fantasy land. Chinese, especially, the leadership think logically (dollar and cents).

Visbek said:
Heck, our own legislators insisted on renaming "French Toast" as "Freedom Toast" when they were mad at France for not allowing Fly-Overs during the invasion of Iraq!
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And did Americans traveling to France decline because of it? Not really.

Visbek said:
Sometimes people do make decisions based on factors like exchange rates (and airline prices). However, tourism is also an emotional decision, and if the leader of a nation you want to visit is giving your entire nation the middle finger? You might think twice about traveling there.
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Between 2008 and 2010 Americans traveling to Europe declined by 17% because of the recession, airline prices and exchange rates. That was REAL decline as it it actually happened. Not some guess based on searches for flights on a phone app. Trump hasn't given a finger to anybody. The media wants you to believe that. What the media doesn't tell you.. Over the last 5 years Canada has tighten their policies, nobody protested that ****. Someone times just protest **** because they didn't win. To that I say.. who gives a ****. People will travel if they got the money and want to. That's not gonna change. If you are overly nationalist about it, you weren't coming anyways.
 
RickJames3000 said:
1. There is no such thing as a "de facto" capitol.
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Yes, there is. When the State Capitol is not the largest city in the State. PA is just that kind of State. Harrisburg is about 50,000 people. Doesn't have a University, doesn't even have the most State employees. Rather more State funds go to Philly and Pittsburgh then Harrisburg. Hell, State College gets more funds then Harrisburg.

RickJames3000 said:
2. Pittsburgh and Columbus are radically different cities... from the built environment, to demographic patterns, to political development, to the physical layout, to their industrial histories... there are very few economists or historians inside the Rust Belt or in the Eastern part of the US that would consider them similar. Nobody who actually lives in the region itself would list Columbus among the major (or even secondary) Rust Belt Cities...and even general sources such as wikipedia will confirm that reality.
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Yes, built environment is dramatically different. Demographic patterns are very similar. They were both the same size in 1970. They both were heavily European heritage. They both heavily Democrat. American Federation of Labor ( AFL of AFL-CIO) was founded in Columbus. Most economist and historians are idiots when it comes to Columbus because they looked at the major cities of the time and Columbus moved forward pretty early... Columbus had Jeffrey Manufacturing Company which was the company you bought Coal Mining equipment from until 1974. Less then 14 years later every single building of the JMC was razed to the ground by the city of Columbus to give land to the State of Ohio to expand the State Library and build homes.

If you are relying on wikipedia..try again. I can literally show you were every manufacturer and foundry in Columbus was or still is. In fact all you have to do is go to Google map, look at Columbus and see all the rail lines with Industrial spurs.




RickJames3000 said:
3. I don't know why you are bringing up universities. Every city of substantial size has universities and colleges.
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Yes, but the difference between Columbus and other Rust Belt cities is that Columbus worked to keep it's University/College Grads to invest in them and diversify the city into the 21st century.



RickJames3000 said:
How much time have you actually spent in Columbus, Pittsburgh or the Rust Belt itself?
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1) Don't question if I spent time in Columbus, Pittsburgh or Rust Belt. You are gonna end up looking like an ass.

2) I live in Columbus and have on and off for a better part of a decade. I moved to Columbus from NYC because I saw Columbus as the new IT city in the Midwest in 2006/2007 after running into a VP working for Nationwide at JFK for a flight to London. She threw out what Columbus wanted for future and how they were working to get there.. and I was sold after taking a trip there.

3) Most of my teachers were from Pittsburgh or Philly from K-12. It was a literally a 33/33/33 of my high school class who went to college either went to Pitt, Penn State or Maryland for College because they were State schools. I went to Penn State but I am very close with some of my friends who went to Pitt and still live in Pittsburgh. We met up roughly once a month in either Pittsburgh or Columbus when I am in the US. So yes, I know Pittsburgh very well.

4) Did I grow up in the Rust Belt? I grew up on the Mason-Dixon line where the county I lived was not considered Appalachian Regional Commission area.. but if I threw a rock from my backyard it'd land in Washington County, MD which is part of it. Where companies like Frick, Geiser (went bankrupt during Great Depression), Grove, and JLG were the main employers. I know all the little towns you'll never hear of that had a furnace or foundry from Western Maryland or central PA because I am from Rust Belt region.
 
Visbek said:
lol

Have you really thought about this?

You complain that companies that are forced by government policies to increase their wages to $15 face a mortal threat, and that increasing their wages will wreak havoc -- such as companies firing employees, or going out of business, or increasing prices for consumers.

But you're perfectly fine with a different set of government polices that will... increase the labor costs for companies, and increase prices for consumers? Why is it that policies that force companies to pay more for labor is a total disaster, while another policy that forces companies to pay more for labor is our saving grace?

I've also made it VERY clear that the policies that Trump feverishly imagines will increase US manufacturing will backfire, in myriad ways -- for which you've provided no real response. Did you already forget? Do you need to review?

Ironically, it's also an analysis which shows why minimum wages are different than border taxes or tariffs or other protectionist measures... but not in a way that supports your argument. Doh!
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Yet more hypocrisy from the left. You are against policies that will increase the costs to consumers but you want to force huge minimum wage increases on businesses who will in turn raise prices on consumers.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
He lives in Columbus. But I agree with you, Columbus doesn't feel very rusty to me when I go there. It feels like a state capital to me, swimming in state capital money.
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Today, Columbus is a lot different then it was in 1970s and that's my point JFC. Columbus was forward thinking then most Rust Belt cities. Columbus diversified quickly. Columbus was pro-active.
 
austrianecon said:
Today, Columbus is a lot different then it was in 1970s and that's my point JFC. Columbus was forward thinking then most Rust Belt cities. Columbus diversified quickly. Columbus was pro-active.
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While I recognize the work you put into justifying your opinion, you are simply going to have to come to grips with the fact that you are in a very tiny minority of people that would consider Columbus a true Rust Belt city, notwithstanding the fact that there are railway lines there.

You've spent a decade in Southern Ohio (on-and-off, as you say, whatever that means) and feel that you are somehow an expert on the Rust Belt? And you are warning other people about looking like an ass? Don't worry... I'm not offended... Your defensiveness is merely amusing.

And what's with... "If you are relying on wikipedia..try again."?! Wikipedia is commonly recognized as an objective source on a vast scope of topics nowadays. This isn't 2002 anymore.

But if you don't like the source, then go ahead and find one of your own that lists Columbus as being among the major Rust Belt Cities, and then we can assess its objectivity.
 
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RickJames3000 said:
While I recognize the work you put into justifying your opinion, you are simply going to have to come to grips with the fact that you are in a very tiny minority of people that would consider Columbus a true Rust Belt city, notwithstanding the fact that there are railway lines there.
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You have to come to grips that Columbus shook it's Rust Belt imagine more quickly. 23 to 25% of all jobs in Columbus in 1969 were Manufacturing by 2005, it was less then 7%. Just like Chicago went from 30% to 9% in that same period. Are you saying Chicago wasn't a Rust Belt city? How about Indy? Who went from 26% to 9%. Columbus was the 11th largest manufacturing city in the US in 1969. Pittsburgh was 10th.

Those are the facts. Columbus was the 11th largest manufacturing city in the US in 1969, just behind Pittsburgh. You consider Pittsburgh rust belt, yet Columbus is not. That's because Columbus was highly proactive in tapping the local college talent, going out and getting businesses to move to Columbus or expand into Columbus, just as the State of Ohio, Columbus and Marysville did when they got Honda to build an two auto plants in the area in 1982 and 1989. Columbus area has a huge tie to Japan (100 plus Japanese companies in Columbus) including Honda. Dublin, Ohio (suburb of Columbus) has the largest Japanese population in Ohio. Columbus created Columbus Japanese Language School and the Japanese Government provides two MEXT (Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology) employees every year to help oversee the school.

RickJames3000 said:
You've spent a decade in Southern Ohio (on-and-off, as you say, whatever that means) and feel that you are somehow an expert on the Rust Belt? And you are warning other people about looking like an ass? Don't worry... I'm not offended... Your defensiveness is merely amusing.
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The fact you said Southern Ohio show you have ZERO geographical understanding of Ohio. Columbus is in Central Ohio. It's literally 90 to 120 mins to Cincy or Cleveland. Columbus is literally the mid way point driving across Ohio on I-70. On and off means I spent 3 straight years in Columbus, took a job overseas (Germany) and since 2012 I've split my time between Frankfurt, Zurich and Columbus as I have business in all three. I own homes in Zurich and Columbus.


RickJames3000 said:
And what's with... "If you are relying on wikipedia..try again."?! Wikipedia is commonly recognized as an objective source on a vast scope of topics nowadays. This isn't 2002 anymore.
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Wikipedia to this very day is not objective. It doesn't even pass muster for a college paper.


RickJames3000 said:
But if you don't like the source, then go ahead and find one of your own that lists Columbus as being among the major Rust Belt Cities, and then we can assess its objectivity.
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I never said major, I said it had 25% of jobs in the 1969 as Manufacturing. That's top 11 in the US at the time.. just behind Pittsburgh. "]The last major relic of Columbus's manufacturing died out in 2007. . Columbus built it's casino on the ground where the old Delphi Plant sat.
 
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austrianecon said:
You have to come to grips that Columbus shook it's Rust Belt imagine more quickly. 23 to 25% of all jobs in Columbus in 1969 were Manufacturing by 2005, it was less then 7
----------------------
SNIP.
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Oh YA...sing IT! :thumbs:

So many Americans anymore, most especially the young, have no idea of what their country is, knowledge is so superficial that it can hardly be said to exist.
 
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