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Trump's Tax Cuts Expected to Generate Federal Revenue: Won't

Winston

Advanced stage dementia patient pls support my run
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Buckle up for another 4 years of crushing deficits. Republicans repeat the fallacy that cutting taxes increases revenue and will undoubtedly use that to extract more money out of our economy. Cutting taxes does not increase revenues. Any job growth seen during a period of low taxes is not significant enough to offset missed revenues on high income earners. Trump's tax plan is more of what Americans are tired of, bells and whistles if you're in the club, skidmarks if you're on the asphalt.

It's important to note that GDP grows. Factors in GDP growth are inflation as well as a growing economy. So, tax cuts or no tax cuts, the GDP can perform as an independent function. Excepting economic downturns, the GDP trends upwards. And as GDP trends upwards so will revenues.

gdp-usa.gif

Conservatives will advocate for tax cuts by pointing to places in time when tax cuts coincided with an economic recovery or boom. Tax cut advocates will argue that the tax cuts have a direct correlation with increased revenues. An exception to the rule emerges when you compare revenue increases following the Bush and Reagan tax cuts against the revenue increase following Bill Clinton’s tax increase on the wealthiest Americans. Bill Clinton's revenue climbs and peaks at higher levels than Bush's around the year '00. And then it begins its descent. As a % of GDP Post-Reagan and post-Bush federal revenues actually fall below the 50 year average. Which begs the question. How much did these tax cuts cost us? :doh

clinton-taxes.jpg

Over a longer period of time we can see that periods of low taxes on top income earners have no correlation with an increase in job creation or GDP growth. This comes into stark view when you consider we have added most jobs during periods of time when our top marginal rates were much higher than they are today. And today our job creation is at a rate so abysmal it's not worth mentioning.

The Fallacy of Reaganomics. Republicans point to Reagan as the stalwart champion of modern fiscal conservatism. However upon examining the data we see that Reagan made some errors in judgement when slashing taxes. The deficit under Reagan reached $207 billion in 1983, two years after Reagan passed the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981 which reduced taxes, effectively reducing tax revenue. His last budget deficit was $152 billion dollars. So, during his term he had a net increase of doubling the deficit. The Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981, cut the top marginal tax rates from 70% to 50% and the bottom rate from 14% to 11% in addition to cutting capital gains, estate and corporate taxes. This combined with increased defense spending led to Reagan running the aforementioned deficits. In other words, Reagan did exactly what conservatives who idolize him are currently criticizing Obama for. Tax cut advocates argue this lays the groundwork for the robust economy following, while ignoring the Fed decreases interest rates during this period.

The Bush Tax Cuts. Under the Economic Growth and Tax Reconciliation Act Bush lowered the top marginal rate to 35%. Just like with Reagan, tax cut advocates claim that the Bush tax cuts stimulated the economy. But there is little correlation between the two. Advocates for tax cuts ignore the effect of the housing bubble. (Ironically the bubble would later burst and cause catastrophe, of which we are still feeling.) The same tax cut advocates act as if a Clinton tax revenue boom in the 90s was a lucky happenstance initiated by the internet revolution. While ignoring the housing bubble when crediting the Bush tax cuts for growth.
Bruce Bartlett who held senior positions in the Reagan and Bush administrations explains, "It would have been one thing if the Bush tax cuts had at least bought the country a higher rate of economic growth, even temporarily. They did not. Real G.D.P. growth peaked at just 3.6 percent in 2004 before fading rapidly. Even before the crisis hit, real G.D.P. was growing less than 2 percent a year." A former member of one of the most conservative administrations of all times has to depart from current conservative thought, which illustrates how far the propaganda has gone.

So, great, tax cuts have little to do with rising revenues. But, can we find a relationship somewhere else in our economy? Why, I thought you'd never ask. :lol: What you can find is a direct correlation between tax cuts and income/wealth inequality.

top1percent.jpg

Huh? wasn't that sposta.. hm.. trickle... down..? Y'don't say Donnie.. Supply-side economics, which is a fancy way of saying, cut taxes on the rich and it frees up the money to be invested back into the economy. Benefits of which then "trickle down" onto us peasants and peons. However, data proves that in eras of supply side, wages decrease.

Reagaonomics.jpg
 
When you say crushing do you mean higher or lower than Obama's first four deficits?
 
When you say crushing do you mean higher or lower than Obama's first four deficits?

Okay, here we go. Obama's exactly why I took the time to make a post about supply side economics, conservative hypocrisy, tax cuts, and income & wealth inequality. Thank you for finally exploring the possibility that Obama is the culprit.
 
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Okay, here we go. Obama's exactly why I took the time to make a post about supply side economics, conservative hypocrisy, tax cuts, and income & wealth inequality. Thank you for finally exploring the possibility that Obama is the culprit.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixg...income-growth-under-four-american-presidents/

yet out of 4 presidents Reagan was the only one to have positive median income growth in all age groups.
looking at those numbers yea I would love to have Reagan back again.
 
The Republicans screamed about spending and debt for 8 years when Clinton was prez. Then when Bush was in office, they said NOTHING about his debt and deficits. Part D, 2 unpaid for wars, and on and on. Nothing but silence from the GOP. They then screamed again with Obama, but now when Trump runs up huge spending and deficits expect silence again from the phony, so called 'fiscal conservatives' in the GOP.

What's fascinating is how gullible the Republican base is, they just keep letting their party get away with lying to them about the GOP being the 'fiscally conservative' Party.
 
That's what greatly increasing deficit spending can do for an economy.

It was the Keynesian stimulus of Reagan's that stimulated the economy more than the tax cuts.

yet if you read anything on Reagan he regretted it. he didn't do it for the reason you think he did either.
he won the cold war that is why he did it.

you still don't get it short term deficit spending isn't an issue.
it is long term deficit spending and your inability to pay it back.

when you debt > GDP you have issues.
 
The Republicans screamed about spending and debt for 8 years when Clinton was prez. Then when Bush was in office, they said NOTHING about his debt and deficits. Part D, 2 unpaid for wars, and on and on. Nothing but silence from the GOP. They then screamed again with Obama, but now when Trump runs up huge spending and deficits expect silence again from the phony, so called 'fiscal conservatives' in the GOP.

What's fascinating is how gullible the Republican base is, they just keep letting their party get away with lying to them about the GOP being the 'fiscally conservative' Party.

again you howl up the wrong tree. most people had major issues with the spending.
it was out of control however the deficit was shrinking 234b before the economy blew up.

Obama multiplied that deficit 5x over 3 years in a row.

had the republicans not taken over and stopped it he would have increased it even more.
Obama racked up 9 trillion in debt with nothing to show for it.

a mediocre GDP rate.
 
yet if you read anything on Reagan he regretted it. he didn't do it for the reason you think he did either.
he won the cold war that is why he did it.

you still don't get it short term deficit spending isn't an issue.
it is long term deficit spending and your inability to pay it back.

when you debt > GDP you have issues.

Why do Senators Dole and Simpson say that their greatest regret was the Reagan tax cuts ?
 
yet if you read anything on Reagan he regretted it. he didn't do it for the reason you think he did either.
he won the cold war that is why he did it.

It doesn't matter why he did it. And I don't doubt that he did it by accident - nobody ever accused Reagan of being too smart. As evidenced by his regret for goosing the economy. Remember, he was losing his wits by the time he left office.

you still don't get it short term deficit spending isn't an issue.
it is long term deficit spending and your inability to pay it back.

And what you still don't seem to get is that governments are completely able to "pay back" their debt obligations in their own currency.

when you debt > GDP you have issues.

Why don't you name some of those issues for us, then? (I'll keep asking this question as long as you keep insisting that sovereign debt causes problems without backing up your claim.)
 
again you howl up the wrong tree. most people had major issues with the spending.
it was out of control however the deficit was shrinking 234b before the economy blew up.

Obama multiplied that deficit 5x over 3 years in a row.

had the republicans not taken over and stopped it he would have increased it even more.
Obama racked up 9 trillion in debt with nothing to show for it.

a mediocre GDP rate.

Nothing to show for it? A good economy and a Unemployment rate under 5? Things may not be perfect BUT it is in a HELL of a lot better shape then he inherited from the last Republican president. That economy blowing up a something to do with some of the deficit.

And yet again you(general you, right wing you) refuse to give Obama ANY credit for 8 years of growth, You're actually crediting the GOP Congress. There's a solid DOW, and a low unemployment rate now. It's like you guys are physically unable to say anything good about him.

But now you're(again general you) going to whine when Trump gets the same treatment.
 
It doesn't matter why he did it. And I don't doubt that he did it by accident - nobody ever accused Reagan of being too smart. As evidenced by his regret for goosing the economy. Remember, he was losing his wits by the time he left office.

Reagan was very smart. again middle class prospered greatly under Reagan.

86 percent ofhouseholds that were in the poorest income quintile in 1980 had moved up the economic ladder to a higher incomequintile by 1990. Incredibly, a poor household in 1980 was more likely to have moved all the way up to the richestincome quintile by 1990 (15 percent) than to still be in the poorest quintile (14 percent).


And what you still don't seem to get is that governments are completely able to "pay back" their debt obligations in their own currency.

This has been debunked already. otherwise we would just pay off the national debt and not worry about.
Sorry but VZ just proved that government cannot just print money and pay off stuff.
so stop spouting this nonsense please. it has been thoroughly debunked.

there are economic consequences to this that you constantly ignore.

Why don't you name some of those issues for us, then? (I'll keep asking this question as long as you keep insisting that sovereign debt causes problems without backing up your claim.)

inflation for one, higher interest rates for another.
you do realize that just a few years ago the credit agencies lowered our credit rating due to our deficit right?

and they were citing the ability of the US to get it's debt under control.

again citing common knowledge is not required.
higher government debt pulls money out of the economy to pay it back.
 
Nothing to show for it? A good economy and a Unemployment rate under 5? Things may not be perfect BUT it is in a HELL of a lot better shape then he inherited from the last Republican president. That economy blowing up a something to do with some of the deficit.

And yet again you(general you, right wing you) refuse to give Obama ANY credit for 8 years of growth, You're actually crediting the GOP Congress. There's a solid DOW, and a low unemployment rate now. It's like you guys are physically unable to say anything good about him.

But now you're(again general you) going to whine when Trump gets the same treatment.

GDP growth of 2.4% is not growth it is stagnation. growth is 3.5-6%
it is only at 5% because they don't include all the people that left the work force. it is more like 9 or 10%.
 
GDP growth of 2.4% is not growth it is stagnation. growth is 3.5-6%
it is only at 5% because they don't include all the people that left the work force. it is more like 9 or 10%.

If you are not looking for a job, and do not want to get a job, then you are not unemployed in the sense that you need to be counted in the official "unemployment" number. People that are officially unemployed want a job but are unable to find one. A lower participation rate is not a sign of poor employment. The participation rate is coming down from an historic high from the 90s.
 
GDP growth of 2.4% is not growth it is stagnation. growth is 3.5-6%
it is only at 5% because they don't include all the people that left the work force. it is more like 9 or 10%.

The Unemployment rate is being figured the same way NOW, as it's ever been. The Feds not including people who left the workforce is nothing new. I hope you're not in the camp of "Obama's been fixing the Unemployment books'.

Also Boomers are retiring. And they will be retiring for 10+ more years, so more and more will be leaving the workforce. Nothing anyone can do about it, no matter who's in the WH.
 
If taxes are too high, cutting them does increase tax revenue. The question is, are taxes too high?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/sea...tent/uploads/2012/12/Slide72.jpg&action=click


True in a general sense, but the Laffer curve is just a concept. No one can put numbers on it. Kansas is trying to implement the 'lower taxes ALWAYS create more growth in revenue' concept and it's failing big time.

Anyone who wants to talk about Reagan in that regard needs to acknowledge that St Ronnie dramatically increased spending along with his cuts, and the deficit and debt ballooned.
 
If taxes are too high, cutting them does increase tax revenue. The question is, are taxes too high?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/sea...tent/uploads/2012/12/Slide72.jpg&action=click

Not in my view. I know we can generate revenue by taxing capital gains at a higher rate. Here's the major flaw in my worldview. If you'd bear with me. I think we need to raise the cap on taxable income and definitely move forward with taxing capital gains at a higher rate.. that is untouchable, to me. But, in a broader sense.. we could raise taxes on everyone to pay for single-payer, education, federal maternity leave. But, wouldn't that chase away corporations in a global economy? They kind of have all the leverage here. What is your view? Right now, there's no way taxes are too high. I work 2 jobs 50-70 hours per week to bring home 35k. And I pay around $500 at tax time. I need to update W-2s and ask them to withhold more. But, my question is, if I have to work so hard, to have so little, is it not fair of me to then request those who make millions with a phone call, pay their fair share too? As well as going far enough to tax their abundance to provide stools for future generations to have a way into an intellectual economy, away from being a worker/grunt like me? I wonder how many untapped Albert Einstein's died in the cotton fields.
 
True in a general sense, but the Laffer curve is just a concept. No one can put numbers on it. Kansas is trying to implement the 'lower taxes ALWAYS create more growth in revenue' concept and it's failing big time.

Anyone who wants to talk about Reagan in that regard needs to acknowledge that St Ronnie dramatically increased spending along with his cuts, and the deficit and debt ballooned.

Kansas lowered taxes when the taxes were not too high and suffered from being wrong. The right is wrong when they believe tax cuts will always work and the left is wrong when they believe tax cuts will never work. The Laffer curve works but the problem with it is that it is extremely difficult to figure out where you are on the curve until you do something different and observe the results. Kansas discovered they were not on the higher side of the curve for tax rates and now need to raise taxes to increase revenues.
 
Not in my view. I know we can generate revenue by taxing capital gains at a higher rate. Here's the major flaw in my worldview. If you'd bear with me. I think we need to raise the cap on taxable income and definitely move forward with taxing capital gains at a higher rate.. that is untouchable, to me. But, in a broader sense.. we could raise taxes on everyone to pay for single-payer, education, federal maternity leave. But, wouldn't that chase away corporations in a global economy? They kind of have all the leverage here. What is your view? Right now, there's no way taxes are too high. I work 2 jobs 50-70 hours per week to bring home 35k. And I pay around $500 at tax time. I need to update W-2s and ask them to withhold more. But, my question is, if I have to work so hard, to have so little, is it not fair of me to then request those who make millions with a phone call, pay their fair share too? As well as going far enough to tax their abundance to provide stools for future generations to have a way into an intellectual economy, away from being a worker/grunt like me? I wonder how many untapped Albert Einstein's died in the cotton fields.

The 1% already pay the lion's share of federal income taxes. They pay more than their fair share. I don't know how old you are or what your jobs are but you need to do something to get paid more money and I mean improving your life, not expecting where you are working now to just pay you more money. I'm hoping you are younger and just haven't moved up the ladder yet. This is just advice. Not trying to belittle you. I started out poor and improved my life in several different ways to get where I am today. Most people don't start out at the top.
 
The 1% already pay the lion's share of federal income taxes. They pay more than their fair share. I don't know how old you are or what your jobs are but you need to do something to get paid more money and I mean improving your life, not expecting where you are working now to just pay you more money. I'm hoping you are younger and just haven't moved up the ladder yet. This is just advice. Not trying to belittle you. I started out poor and improved my life in several different ways to get where I am today. Most people don't start out at the top.

I'm aware that the top 1% pays as much as almost the entire bottom 90%. But, a small % tax increase on high dollar amounts results in large amounts of revenue. How is it that our CEO to worker rate is so disproportionate today? I'm a line cook. My CoL has went up every year but, my wage has stayed the same. I am younger. I was born in '88. So, I have time to make smart choices and carve out a sustainable economic life for myself. I recently enrolled back in community college with the help of my father. If it weren't for my dad's socialism, I would not have this opportunity.

The area I'd like to focus on is the CEO to Worker pay ratio.

ceotoworker.jpg

The U.S. leads the world by a mile. So, how do those poor CEO's put food on the table in Switzerland? Also if you look U.S. policy choice has increased the CEO to Worker pay ratio as the years progress. CEO's made more, workers made less. Unchecked capitalism creates income/wealth disparity. Blue collar workers don't want to own the world. They want to be able to take their family on a $5,000 dollar vacation. With the current way income/wealth disparity is trending it's hard for someone to make the argument that the worker's are the problem.
 
I'm aware that the top 1% pays as much as almost the entire bottom 90%. But, a small % tax increase on high dollar amounts results in large amounts of revenue. How is it that our CEO to worker rate is so disproportionate today? I'm a line cook. My CoL has went up every year but, my wage has stayed the same. I am younger. I was born in '88. So, I have time to make smart choices and carve out a sustainable economic life for myself. I recently enrolled back in community college with the help of my father. If it weren't for my dad's socialism, I would not have this opportunity.

The area I'd like to focus on is the CEO to Worker pay ratio.

View attachment 67213393

The U.S. leads the world by a mile. So, how do those poor CEO's put food on the table in Switzerland? Also if you look U.S. policy choice has increased the CEO to Worker pay ratio as the years progress. CEO's made more, workers made less. Unchecked capitalism creates income/wealth disparity. Blue collar workers don't want to own the world. They want to be able to take their family on a $5,000 dollar vacation. With the current way income/wealth disparity is trending it's hard for someone to make the argument that the worker's are the problem.

You said you worked two jobs about 70 hours per week and you have to rely on your dad for that opportunity? You need to do something different than working for your dad and working as a line cook. Do you have any college? Sounds like your dad is your CEO. What would happen to you if we taxed your dad more? Would taxing Bill Gates more give you personally any more money?
 
I have a semester of community college. I played around with HVAC for awhile but, it wasn't for me. I'm taking general ed right now in a transfer program to University. The cost of living in my city is HIGH. The CoL index is 180. 100 is the average. Housing here is expensive. Studio apartments are minimum of $1,000/month. Taxing my dad, I dunno my dad's finances. He's got a pension. Lives pretty comfortably. But, he worked since the 80s to achieve and made smart investments. If we're playing with hypotheticals. Here's what would make a major difference in my life. Bringing rent down. (Haha, did you ever see that "Rent Is Too Damn High, guy who went viral a few years back?) But, it's just going to go up because this area is growing. And it's gone up for 3 straight years in a row. Roommates are the only viable path for someone who works in the service industry.
 
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