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Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

The bottom line is that lenders are under no obligation to keep throwing money into a black hole. That's what you guys don't seem to understand. Greece was going backwards before and they are still going backwards now. If your cousin asks you for a loan of one thousand dollars every month for years and he continually makes partial payments to pay you back, causing your bank account to go from $100,000 to $10,000, at some point you are going to say screw you or that you are not going to loan him any more money until he gets his finances in order and you know that he can actually pay you back instead of asking for more money. It is not your obligation to continually keep on loaning your cousin one thousand dollars a month with no hope of him ever really paying you back. You liberals seem to think the lenders should just keep on throwing money into that black hole.

No, no, no...you don't get to weasel your way out of this one. I said that austerity hurt Greece and you demanded I prove that it did fiscally. So I presented you with a graph showing the debt to GDP ratio (a thing you use when arguing about US debt) proving that Greece is in far worse shape fiscally than it was pre-austerity. Then you tried to move the goalposts by pretending there was some degree of austerity without even knowing what austerity is. It's a frequent pattern with you; you make a claim, it gets proven wrong, then you shift the goalposts to preserve your ego.

Yuck.
 
The bottom line is that lenders are under no obligation to keep throwing money into a black hole. That's what you guys don't seem to understand. Greece was going backwards before and they are still going backwards now. If your cousin asks you for a loan of one thousand dollars every month for years and he continually makes partial payments to pay you back, causing your bank account to go from $100,000 to $10,000, at some point you are going to say screw you or that you are not going to loan him any more money until he gets his finances in order and you know that he can actually pay you back instead of asking for more money. It is not your obligation to continually keep on loaning your cousin one thousand dollars a month with no hope of him ever really paying you back. You liberals seem to think the lenders should just keep on throwing money into that black hole.

The bottom line is that you asked for proof that Greece was worse off after the austerity measures than before, and when presented with a piece of that proof, you went off the reservation further than usual claiming "apples and oranges", "cherry picking", etc. (what is it with you and fruit?)

Everything you just wrote has nothing to do with the post of mine that you quoted.

Non-sequitur, anyone?
 
I was asking him about apples and he shows me a graph of trains.
:)

European Austerity Is a Myth

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-08-19/european-austerity-is-a-myth

Forbes Welcome

https://mises.org/library/myth-austerity

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/debunking-myth-economic-austerity-europe

Government spending in the euro countries rose from 45.3% of GDP in 2007 to 49.5% in 2013, according to Eurostat, with particularly huge increases in Greece, France, Italy and Portugal.


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:)

European Austerity Is a Myth

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-08-19/european-austerity-is-a-myth

Forbes Welcome

https://mises.org/library/myth-austerity

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/debunking-myth-economic-austerity-europe

Government spending in the euro countries rose from 45.3% of GDP in 2007 to 49.5% in 2013, according to Eurostat, with particularly huge increases in Greece, France, Italy and Portugal.


View attachment 67212991

Always consider your numbers in context. In this case, the context is a big decline in GDP.

greece-gdp.jpg

italy-gdp.jpg

portugal-gdp.jpg

Back to your drawing board.
 
:lamo you are trying to refute me?

you need to refute

BLOOMBERG - FORBES- MISES - CATO
, which you cant do!

you have posted charts, however you provide no sources but just those charts.

Yeah, refuting you is always so difficult. :roll:

Greece GDP | 1960-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast | News

Your sources didn't do the simple math. GDP went way down, so the ratio of spending made it look like spending went way up.

Austerity has been an unmitigated disaster. GDP has cratered, unemployment is way up, and it hasn't helped much with their debt, either. The numbers completely undermine your theories about economics, so I don't know why you continue to cling to your way of thinking, other than stubbornness.
 
No, no, no...you don't get to weasel your way out of this one. I said that austerity hurt Greece and you demanded I prove that it did fiscally. So I presented you with a graph showing the debt to GDP ratio (a thing you use when arguing about US debt) proving that Greece is in far worse shape fiscally than it was pre-austerity. Then you tried to move the goalposts by pretending there was some degree of austerity without even knowing what austerity is. It's a frequent pattern with you; you make a claim, it gets proven wrong, then you shift the goalposts to preserve your ego.

Yuck.

Answer this simple question: Are lenders obligated to make bad loans? You complain about the mortgage bubble but then want lenders to continue pouring money into the bottomless pit of Greece to feed their fiscal irresponsibility BEFORE austerity even happened.
 
Yeah, refuting you is always so difficult. :roll:

Greece GDP | 1960-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast | News

Your sources didn't do the simple math. GDP went way down, so the ratio of spending made it look like spending went way up.

Austerity has been an unmitigated disaster. GDP has cratered, unemployment is way up, and it hasn't helped much with their debt, either. The numbers completely undermine your theories about economics, so I don't know why you continue to cling to your way of thinking, other than stubbornness.


i realize your upset because your ideas are shots to pieces.

by the way greece has been broke, cant do much spending in that condition

Greece Government Spending to GDP | 1995-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar


from you own site, as you can see not a lot of austerity going on

you try to make it look like you overcome here and you have not because you cant defeat the the links i posted

when you post... provide links it helps, instead of just making claims, like your first post did
 

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The bottom line is that you asked for proof that Greece was worse off after the austerity measures than before, and when presented with a piece of that proof, you went off the reservation further than usual claiming "apples and oranges", "cherry picking", etc. (what is it with you and fruit?)

Everything you just wrote has nothing to do with the post of mine that you quoted.

Non-sequitur, anyone?

That must be you guy's new fancy word. What happened to all the old ones? The bottom line is lenders are not obligated to keep Greece afloat, austerity or no austerity. Lenders dictate the terms of the loan and borrowers either accept them or they don't. You guys want to argue that austerity made Greece worse but the fact is Greece was already circling the bowl before austerity, so your argument is rather moot. MOOT, hey, I used my own fancy word! Your non-sequitur is moot.
 
i realize your upset because your ideas are shots to pieces.

Greece Government Spending to GDP | 1995-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar

View attachment 67213001





View attachment 67213005

from you own site, as you can see not a lot of austerity going on

you try to make it look like you overcome here and you have not because you cant defeat the the links i posted

Why don't you expand your data over more than two years? Could it be because you are a hack who clings to a losing argument? Let's try a ten-year spread, one that actually encompasses the time period in question:

greece-government-spending.jpg

portugal-government-spending.jpg

italy-government-spending.jpg

Those are all CLEAR decreases in regular ol' government spending over time.

Your links, btw, all stink. Their arguments are every bit as porous as yours.
 
blah blah blah falsehood alternate fact falsehood

LOL! So the reason spending-to-GDP increased was because the Eurozone went through a recession.
 
:lamo you are trying to refute me? ou need to refute BLOOMBERG - FORBES- MISES - CATO , which you cant do!

He just did by showing your spending-to-gdp figures within the context of a decline in GDP because of the Eurozone recession. Wow, dude. Do you even understand this topic? Do you know what GDP is?
 
Answer this simple question: Are lenders obligated to make bad loans?

No. They aren't.


You complain about the mortgage bubble but then want lenders to continue pouring money into the bottomless pit of Greece to feed their fiscal irresponsibility BEFORE austerity even happened.

Not what I said, or my position. You don't seem to understand the Greek debt crisis at all.
 
are you well aware greece has been broke

Your broken English response notwithstanding, your argument was that spending increased and you used spending-to-gdp ratios in support of that argument. However, you failed to place that within the context of GDP itself, which declined because the Eurozone went through a recession. You either did this intentionally in order to distort the truth, or unintentionally because you aren't as smart as you think.

But that's par for the course with you guys.
 
LOL! So the reason spending-to-GDP increased was because the Eurozone went through a recession.

it a shame you have to post false information about me by altering postings but its to be expected since, you just deny what i say and then talk about trump, horse,buggies, dusty papers in other arguments which have nothing to do things you have i have argued over in threadS

Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
blah blah blah falsehood alternate fact falsehood
 
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Your broken English response notwithstanding, your argument was that spending increased and you used spending-to-gdp ratios in support of that argument. However, you failed to place that within the context of GDP itself, which declined because the Eurozone went through a recession. You either did this intentionally in order to distort the truth, or unintentionally because you aren't as smart as you think.

But that's par for the course with you guys.

i truly welcome this!

this shows your inablity to confront situations
 
Answer this simple question: Are lenders obligated to make bad loans? You complain about the mortgage bubble but then want lenders to continue pouring money into the bottomless pit of Greece to feed their fiscal irresponsibility BEFORE austerity even happened.

The bottom line is that Greece's non-sovereign debt has nothing to do with the OP.
 
No. They aren't.




Not what I said, or my position. You don't seem to understand the Greek debt crisis at all.

I say don't lend Greece any more money and let the chips fall where they may. You should like that, Greece could then bring back the Drachma and print until their hearts are content and all of their problems will be solved. I wonder why the diehard liberals in Greece chose austerity over that? Could it possibly be they thought that austerity was better than the Great Depression?
 
Why don't you expand your data over more than two years? Could it be because you are a hack who clings to a losing argument? Let's try a ten-year spread, one that actually encompasses the time period in question:

View attachment 67213007

View attachment 67213008

View attachment 67213009

Those are all CLEAR decreases in regular ol' government spending over time.

Your links, btw, all stink. Their arguments are every bit as porous as yours.

you quoted my posting which dealt with government spending to GDP

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Screen Shot 2017-01-25 at 12.46.51 PM.jpgScreen Shot 2017-01-25 at 12.47.24 PM.jpg

Screen Shot 2017-01-25 at 12.49.52 PM.jpg
 
I say don't lend Greece any more money and let the chips fall where they may. You should like that, Greece could then bring back the Drachma and print until their hearts are content and all of their problems will be solved. I wonder why the diehard liberals in Greece chose austerity over that? Could it possibly be they thought that austerity was better than the Great Depression?

Why don't you do some research on the question and get back to us when you actually understand what it is you are trying to argue for? You have already demonstrated that you don't understand euro economics any better than you understand dollar economics. Go bring yourself up to speed and come back in a few years with a decent argument.
 

Yeah? So what? Your point about austerity was misleading because you failed to take into account the huge declines in GDP. So I showed you where the errors in your thinking were.

There is nothing in the data that suggests anything positive about austerity. If you think you can find some glimmer of hope in those numbers, please, share it with us.
 
it a shame you have to post false information about me by altering postings but its to be expected since, you just deny what i say and then talk about trump, horse,buggies, dusty papers in other arguments which have nothing to do things you have i have argued over in threadS
Quote Originally Posted by Master PO View Post
blah blah blah falsehood alternate fact falsehood

Look man, you very deliberately omitted the context in your argument. You thought you could sneak it by without anyone noticing, but you failed in that regard. You claimed spending increased during Eurozone's austerity and you tried to make that argument by examining spending-to-GDP ratios. However, what that doesn't tell you is that GDP declined because that's what happens during a recession...the economy contracts.

Your reaction to being called out is to basically throw a tantrum and either play at being obtuse, or that is who you really are.
 
Why don't you do some research on the question and get back to us when you actually understand what it is you are trying to argue for? You have already demonstrated that you don't understand euro economics any better than you understand dollar economics. Go bring yourself up to speed and come back in a few years with a decent argument.

And what were your credentials again? Oh yeah. Five year hobbyist with no education in economics whatsoever. But, again, I love it when you talk down to me because then I know I'm getting in your craw with the truth as the only defense you have is to belittle others.
 
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