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Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

Critter7r said:
Since the hours of office operation are the supply in this case, you're arguing for both sides here.

If the doctor's office can expand hours at the drop of a hat, then there's no shortage; there is an increase of supply congruent with demand. So they can easily meet the increased demand of their office's time to take advantage of that increased demand and their ability to increase market share by lowering prices.

EDIT : and it IS low-hanging fruit. The doctor can have one of their PAs spend 6 minutes with the patient to do the physical, and have the nursing staff run the vitals (i.e., the patient never sees the actual doctor). All for the low low price of $79, usually paid in cash so there's no insurance billing to handle so the overhead cost is lower.
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Nope. The doctors office does not expand office hours at a drop of a hat. If a clinic or office "expands hours".. it does so by largely donating the time. The clinic operates at a loss and often so does the PA and the physicians. Demand outstrips the supply. Generally, the number of people for sport physicals outstrips the supply even with expanded/donated hours... which is why there is still demand for sport physicals during the rest year. A whole host of people get turned away from the reduced cost or no cost physicals.

And its not low hanging fruit. The clinic is not getting 79 dollars. They are providing FREE sports physicals or physicals for 15-30 dollars that's the point of this discussion. While demand is higher.. and supply is constant the price of the sports physicals GOES DOWN.. during this time.. as low as ZERO> and by the way that same PA that spends 6 minutes could be spending 6 minutes handling a person with a cold and get reimbursed 100 dollars or more.
 
Incisor said:
It's not a loan, per se, it's an issuing of bonds. You as an individual cannot issue bonds of yourself, can you?
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What does per se mean? Fancy way of admitting that yes, it is indeed a loan.
 
Moderate Right said:
What does per se mean? Fancy way of admitting that yes, it is indeed a loan.
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You don't know what per se means, do you? And furthermore, who can issue bonds of themselves? No one. You need some help with this topic.
 
Incisor said:
And here we go...the goalposts start to move. Austerity has only one definition. We have tried it internationally and domestically and in both cases, it was a failure. Mostly because the motives behind it were nefarious and the policy itself was based on deliberate lies. Whoever thought that cutting spending amidst an economic recession seriously deserves a swift kick in the groin because it makes no sense. A recession is caused by people holding back spending...if you also hold back federal spending, what is filling the void of demand? Conservatives like to think that increased consumption from the top fills that void, but as we saw with the Bush Tax Cuts, the wealthy save, not spend their tax cuts.




Maybe you're being willfully ignorant.

Greece's unemployment rate in December, 2009 (pre-austerity): 10.7%
Greece's unemployment rate in June, 2016 (after nearly six years of austerity): 23.4%

So which is higher? 10.7% or 23.4%?
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There are different degrees of austerity. It is not an all or nothing thing. You guys call cutting one dollar in expenses austerity. Greece's austerity didn't really begin until the last few years so you are being dishonest in going back to 2009. In any event, it really doesn't matter for two reasons.

1. Greece's unemployment was going to get bad anyway, whether they had austerity or not, just as with the Great Depression

2. Lenders are under no obligation to keep throwing money into a black hole. Greece did not have to do austerity if they didn't want to. They only had to do it if they wanted to borrow more funds. Lenders could have told them to go take a flying leap and given them zero more money. As I said, they had no obligation to loan Greece one dime. Greece shouldn't have run their economy so badly that they got to the point that they did. That was their fault for being too liberal.
 
jaeger19 said:
Nope. The doctors office does not expand office hours at a drop of a hat. If a clinic or office "expands hours".. it does so by largely donating the time. The clinic operates at a loss and often so does the PA and the physicians. Demand outstrips the supply. Generally, the number of people for sport physicals outstrips the supply even with expanded/donated hours... which is why there is still demand for sport physicals during the rest year. A whole host of people get turned away from the reduced cost or no cost physicals.

And its not low hanging fruit. The clinic is not getting 79 dollars. They are providing FREE sports physicals or physicals for 15-30 dollars that's the point of this discussion. While demand is higher.. and supply is constant the price of the sports physicals GOES DOWN.. during this time.. as low as ZERO> and by the way that same PA that spends 6 minutes could be spending 6 minutes handling a person with a cold and get reimbursed 100 dollars or more.
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The fact that the office uses physicals as a loss-leader negates nothing I've posted.

Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk
 
Moderate Right said:
There are different degrees of austerity.
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Look at you moving the goalposts again for the second time in as many posts. That's gotta be a record. No, there aren't "different degrees of austerity". There is only austerity. Furthermore, Greece began with its austerity in 2010 and as you saw on the chart from my previous post, unemployment skyrocketed. I'm tired of Conservatives saying one thing ("a shot of adrenaline") then backing off that and preaching patience with policies that will never work. Just like we see in Kansas today. There has never been a political group or ideology so unequivocally wrong about everything like you guys. Obama was too nice in 2009. Pelosi in 2007 too. Impeachment of Bush for his war crimes should have happened, as should have accountability for Wall Street following the Financial Crisis. Because Conservatism was so tied to both those things, Obama and the Democrats should have not played it nice. They should have pressed the boot to the neck of the GOP and kill it before it had a chance to rise like a zombie. Which is what Conservatism is now...a zombie. Dead ideas that for some reason continue to walk around. I think that has everything to do with ego. You all don't want to admit you're wrong about anything because doing so undermines the infallibility you've been led to believe.


1. Greece's unemployment was going to get bad anyway, whether they had austerity or not, just as with the Great Depression
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Right, but austerity made the situation worse by reducing government demand, thus prolonging a recession because there was no demand to fill the vacuum created by the drop in government demand and employment. It's the same kind of thinking you people always have; that cutting government spending will result in an equal or greater increase in private sector spending. That has never been the case, ever. You can't make up for lost demand from government with private sector because of the nature of what government provides.


2. Lenders are under no obligation to keep throwing money into a black hole.
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That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. The lenders weren't forced to give loans to Greece. They did so voluntarily. I also don't think you understand the Greek crisis at all. You think this is about budgets, but it's not.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Well, that is because you have not looked, that is because even when I post documentation specifically on this topic, you can say something like this 30 hours later. So is the problem retention, or is it ignoring?
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As I told Incisor, it doesn't matter. Greece can go to hell and all of their people can go homeless and starve. I don't give a rat's ass. Actually, they can eat rats. They brought this on themselves so they have to pay the price for their failed liberal policies. Lenders are not under any obligation to make bad loan after bad loan after bad loan. That's the bottom line. You guys think that lenders should just keep on throwing money into a black hole to fit your liberal agenda. That's what MMT is all about.
 
Moderate Right said:
I actually haven't seen any evidence that Greece is worse off fiscally since austerity.
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Gimmesometruth said:
Well, that is because you have not looked, that is because even when I post documentation specifically on this topic, you can say something like this 30 hours later. So is the problem retention, or is it ignoring?
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Moderate Right said:
As I told Incisor, it doesn't matter.
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Yer just trolling. To hell with yer worthless posting.
 
Moderate Right said:
As I told Incisor, it doesn't matter. Greece can go to hell and all of their people can go homeless and starve. I don't give a rat's ass. Actually, they can eat rats. They brought this on themselves so they have to pay the price for their failed liberal policies. Lenders are not under any obligation to make bad loan after bad loan after bad loan. That's the bottom line. You guys think that lenders should just keep on throwing money into a black hole to fit your liberal agenda. That's what MMT is all about.
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Terrorists use this line of thinking to condemn all Americans for our failed foreign policies.
 
Critter7r said:
The fact that the office uses physicals as a loss-leader negates nothing I've posted.

Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk
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It negates the original premise for which I made the example. That when demand increases vs supply.. prices NEVER fall or decrease.

I just pointed out an example in which they do.
 
jaeger19 said:
It negates the original premise for which I made the example. That when demand increases vs supply.. prices NEVER fall or decrease.

I just pointed out an example in which they do.
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You pointed out an example of an effect of a surge of seasonal demand within an elastic supply. You didn't negate the premise, you pointed out a caveat.
 
Moderate Right said:
There are different degrees of austerity. It is not an all or nothing thing. You guys call cutting one dollar in expenses austerity. Greece's austerity didn't really begin until the last few years so you are being dishonest in going back to 2009. In any event, it really doesn't matter for two reasons.

1. Greece's unemployment was going to get bad anyway, whether they had austerity or not, just as with the Great Depression

2. Lenders are under no obligation to keep throwing money into a black hole. Greece did not have to do austerity if they didn't want to. They only had to do it if they wanted to borrow more funds. Lenders could have told them to go take a flying leap and given them zero more money. As I said, they had no obligation to loan Greece one dime. Greece shouldn't have run their economy so badly that they got to the point that they did. That was their fault for being too liberal.
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You know less than nothing about how the Eurozone economy works. Please stop trying to talk about it.
 
Critter7r said:
You pointed out an example of an effect of a surge of seasonal demand within an elastic supply. You didn't negate the premise, you pointed out a caveat.
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No..it does negate the premise that when demand rises vs supply that prices NEVER fall. They do in this case.. despite a surge in demand.. that outstrips supply.
 
Incisor said:
You don't know what per se means, do you? And furthermore, who can issue bonds of themselves? No one. You need some help with this topic.
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I'll take that as an admission that yes, they are indeed loans with principle and interest.
 
Incisor said:
Look at you moving the goalposts again for the second time in as many posts. That's gotta be a record. No, there aren't "different degrees of austerity". There is only austerity. Furthermore, Greece began with its austerity in 2010 and as you saw on the chart from my previous post, unemployment skyrocketed. I'm tired of Conservatives saying one thing ("a shot of adrenaline") then backing off that and preaching patience with policies that will never work. Just like we see in Kansas today. There has never been a political group or ideology so unequivocally wrong about everything like you guys. Obama was too nice in 2009. Pelosi in 2007 too. Impeachment of Bush for his war crimes should have happened, as should have accountability for Wall Street following the Financial Crisis. Because Conservatism was so tied to both those things, Obama and the Democrats should have not played it nice. They should have pressed the boot to the neck of the GOP and kill it before it had a chance to rise like a zombie. Which is what Conservatism is now...a zombie. Dead ideas that for some reason continue to walk around. I think that has everything to do with ego. You all don't want to admit you're wrong about anything because doing so undermines the infallibility you've been led to believe.




Right, but austerity made the situation worse by reducing government demand, thus prolonging a recession because there was no demand to fill the vacuum created by the drop in government demand and employment. It's the same kind of thinking you people always have; that cutting government spending will result in an equal or greater increase in private sector spending. That has never been the case, ever. You can't make up for lost demand from government with private sector because of the nature of what government provides.




That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. The lenders weren't forced to give loans to Greece. They did so voluntarily. I also don't think you understand the Greek crisis at all. You think this is about budgets, but it's not.
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I'm moving the goalposts? You guys are the ones who can't admit that you believe cutting one dollar is called austerity.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Yer just trolling. To hell with yer worthless posting.
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Please show proof that Greece is worse off fiscally than before austerity. They are getting their ship back in order. There are bound to be civilian casualties. That's the price you have to pay for liberalism getting out of control.
 
Critter7r said:
Terrorists use this line of thinking to condemn all Americans for our failed foreign policies.
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Talk about moving the goal posts. Liberals must pay for their failed policies.
 
Moderate Right said:
I'm moving the goalposts? You guys are the ones who can't admit that you believe cutting one dollar is called austerity.
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Yes, you are moving the goalposts. And it wasn't $1 that was cut, it was collectively hundreds of billions -maybe even trillions- globally in the wake of the manufactured debt crises. I mean, when your entire ideology unravels because of spreadsheet errors, it's not an ideology you should want to have any part of.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
You know less than nothing about how the Eurozone economy works. Please stop trying to talk about it.
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This from a guy who admits to not having a smidgen of education in economics and that it is only a five year hobby?
 
Moderate Right said:
Please show proof that Greece is worse off fiscally than before austerity.
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So, this is fairly simple to show. Here's a chart that shows Greece's debt-to-GDP. As you can plainly see, the debt-to-GDP increased well above pre-austerity measures. So what does that mean? That cutting government demand also results in larger deficits and more debt because there's nothing to make up for the drop in government demand in an economy already in recession.

greece-government-debt-to-gdp.jpg
 
Incisor said:
Yes, you are moving the goalposts. And it wasn't $1 that was cut, it was collectively hundreds of billions -maybe even trillions- globally in the wake of the manufactured debt crises. I mean, when your entire ideology unravels because of spreadsheet errors, it's not an ideology you should want to have any part of.
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None of any of this means anything. Lenders are under no obligation to keep on throwing money into a black hole. They demanded austerity in return for more loans. Greece complied. Greece could have told the lenders to go take a flying leap. They didn't. One way or another it is Greece's fault, either for getting themselves in that pickle in the first place or for not having the balls to tell the lenders demanding austerity to go to hell.
 
Incisor said:
So, this is fairly simple to show. Here's a chart that shows Greece's debt-to-GDP. As you can plainly see, the debt-to-GDP increased well above pre-austerity measures. So what does that mean? That cutting government demand also results in larger deficits and more debt because there's nothing to make up for the drop in government demand in an economy already in recession.

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As I said before. None of these fancy charts mean a damn thing. Lenders are under no obligation to lend anything to anyone. Greece should have told them to go to hell, we will not do austerity. There's no sense in the lenders continuing to lend money that they will never get paid back. At some point you have to cut your losses instead of adding even more losses on.
 
Moderate Right said:
None of any of this means anything.
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It means plenty, you either don't understand it or refuse to accept it. That's kinda your thing.


Lenders are under no obligation to keep on throwing money into a black hole.
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No one was forcing them to do anything. They made those loans on their own accord. They placed a bad bet and they lost.


They demanded austerity in return for more loans.
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Yeah, and the result of that austerity was a more than doubling of the unemployment rate and a near-doubling of Greece's debt-to-GDP (your favorite measurement, if I'm not mistaken). Is Greece in a better place now than they were in 2010? No.


One way or another it is Greece's fault, either for getting themselves in that pickle in the first place or for not having the balls to tell the lenders demanding austerity to go to hell.
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So victim blaming is not how you're going to wiggle out of responsibility for the failure of austerity -a policy you enthusiastically support. Your attempt to dodge the conversation over the empirical failure of austerity notwithstanding, there's a simple question to ask here; is Greece better off now than it was before austerity? The answer, of course, is no.
 
Moderate Right said:
This from a guy who admits to not having a smidgen of education in economics and that it is only a five year hobby?
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Yes, that comes from me. Because it is COMPLETELY clear that you are absolutely ignorant of Eurozone economics. I am qualified to call you unqualified.
 
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