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Reverand Paul gives a sermon on the Book of Fiscal Conservatism

Greece should have never had such liberal policies that austerity was needed.
Tax evasion...isn't a "liberal" policy.
You are supposed to run your country's finances responsibly so that austerity is never needed. If no one was willing to loan money to Greece anymore then what would they do?
Um, it was a whole lota loans, by EU banks, and then...a forcing of austerity....by EU banks.....to force repayment.....for loans the EU banks.....should not have made in the first place.
It is not mandatory for a lender to throw money down a never ending pit. People and places loan money expecting it to get paid back.
The EU banks were never "forced" to lend, this wasn't another "CRA myth" u cons are so fond of arguing.
 
Tax evasion...isn't a "liberal" policy.Um, it was a whole lota loans, by EU banks, and then...a forcing of austerity....by EU banks.....to force repayment.....for loans the EU banks.....should not have made in the first place.The EU banks were never "forced" to lend, this wasn't another "CRA myth" u cons are so fond of arguing.

Greece should have run their country responsibly so that loans were not needed to keep them afloat. They just let it keep on going and getting more and more loans until it got to the point where the lenders would not lend to them anymore without austerity measures. The lenders were not going to invest any more money on the Titanic. Not really any different than you or I getting several loans and then needing more loans to pay off the old loans until the bank finally says, "Now wait a minute. If you want to borrow any more money from us you had better show us that you're turning this ship around". Tax evasion happened for two reasons. One was that taxes on the rich were so high that the rich didn't pay them or left the country for greener pastures. The second was the government didn't do anything to put a stop it. I will give you some credit though for not saying that Greece is different because they don't have their own currency.
 
Greece should have run their country responsibly so that loans were not needed to keep them afloat. They just let it keep on going and getting more and more loans until it got to the point where the lenders would not lend to them any more without austerity measures. The lenders were not going to investment any more money on the Titanic. Not really any different than you or I getting several loans and then needing more loans to pay off the old loans until the bank finally says, "Now wait a minute. If you want to borrow any more money from us you had better show us that you're turning this ship around". Tax evasion happened for two reasons. One was that taxes on the rich were so high that the rich didn't pay them or left the country for greener pastures. The second was the government didn't do anything to put a stop it. I will give you some credit though for not saying that Greece is different because they don't have their own currency.
Yer pathetic lack of understanding of Greece is unsurpassed. The "lending" to Greece has to viewed as lending PRIOR to the Great Recession....and post. Pre-recession, the lending was by euro banks that lied to themselves based on deceptive economic gain reporting, post recession lending was to save said banks. You, as per usual have nothing but uninformed rhetorical posing, you never have any sort of factual reality based argument. It is nothing but noise.
 
Yer pathetic lack of understanding of Greece is unsurpassed. The "lending" to Greece has to viewed as lending PRIOR to the Great Recession....and post. Pre-recession, the lending was by euro banks that lied to themselves based on deceptive economic gain reporting, post recession lending was to save said banks. You, as per usual have nothing but uninformed rhetorical posing, you never have any sort of factual reality based argument. It is nothing but noise.

Blabber all you want. Greece couldn't run their country without getting loans from the EU, etc.
 
Baseless, unsubstantiated, uninformed noise continues.

What is baseless, unsubstantiated, uninformed noise about what I wrote? Those were both facts. Greece couldn't financially run their own country and therefore had to get loans from the EU and others in order to do it. Since they couldn't get a handle on their own problems, their lenders demanded they do before loaning them more money. Thus, austerity. All proof that liberal socialist policies such as here and in V don't work.
 
What is baseless, unsubstantiated, uninformed noise about what I wrote?
All of it.
Those were both facts. Greece couldn't financially run their own country and therefore had to get loans from the EU and others in order to do it. Since they couldn't get a handle on their own problems, their lenders demanded they do before loaning them more money. Thus, austerity. All proof that liberal socialist policies such as here and in V don't work.
Simplistic, uninformed noise. There is nothing that has any basis in reality, it is all the usual rhetorical nonsense without any historical reference. But then, we are used to it....and it will always be all that you can present because you reject any and all real world data. But don't let that disturb yer comedy routine.
 
All of it.Simplistic, uninformed noise. There is nothing that has any basis in reality, it is all the usual rhetorical nonsense without any historical reference. But then, we are used to it....and it will always be all that you can present because you reject any and all real world data. But don't let that disturb yer comedy routine.

Any moron knows Greece was in debt up to their ears and couldn't survive without loans and that their lenders demanded austerity measures before loaning them any more money. I really don't know how you can dispute that. That's not even up for debate. You can try debating the reasons for it all but you can't debate those simple facts.
 
Any moron knows Greece was in debt up to their ears and couldn't survive without loans and that their lenders demanded austerity measures before loaning them any more money. I really don't know how you can dispute that. That's not even up for debate. You can try debating the reasons for it all but you can't debate those simple facts.
Noise.

I'm not expecting you to produce any sort of data...because....you can't use data to support your arguments.

The loans after the recession.....were to Greece's creditors, this is still a concept beyond your understanding.
 
Noise.

I'm not expecting you to produce any sort of data...because....you can't use data to support your arguments.

The loans after the recession.....were to Greece's creditors, this is still a concept beyond your understanding.

So, the EU and the IMF loaned money to themselves to make payments on their own loans and Greece had absolutely nothing to do with it? All you are talking about is a shell game. Greece overspent, got loans, couldn't pay them without more loans, so their lenders forced austerity on them before loaning them any more money. A shell game doesn't change the fact that liberal policies don't work. But, I understand that as a liberal you don't want to admit that liberal policies don't work.
 
Not that this will seep into, filter thru the noise, it is simply posted to remind anyone interested what the facts are:

Causes of the Crisis and the Austerity Response

Rather than locating the causes of the crisis within Greece itself, Laskos and Tsakalotos identify problems in the global economy in general, and the unevenness within the European Union (EU) in particular. The role of Germany and its export-led growth strategy is clearly at the heart of the problem. “Germany depends quite heavily on demand generated within the rest of the European Union,” the authors point out. “In 2007, when the trade account was 8.15 per cent of GDP, some 4.44 per cent of GDP (i.e. 63.4 per cent of the trade account surplus) originated in Germany’s surplus arising from its export of goods to other EU countries” (p. 86). Importantly, this not because Germany’s production was based on higher levels of productivity based on new technology and working practices. “In Greece productivity increases actually outstripped those in Germany, especially in the later period. Rather, it is the German restrictive wages policy after 2000 that made it almost impossible for the periphery to compete” (p. 83).

When Greece faced bankruptcy in 2010 and 2012, bailout packages were provided, but they came at the cost of permanent austerity imposed by the Troika consisting of the European Central Bank, the Commission and IMF. As the authors make clear, austerity has not solved the economic crisis. Instead, a vicious circle of austerity-recession-more austerity commenced, undermining further Greece’s productive capacities. “Industrial production (manufacturing, mining, electricity) fell by 23.3 per cent between October 2008 and October 2012, widening the gap between Greece and its EU partners” (p. 104). Moreover, “between 2010 and 2012 almost 60,000 enterprises closed down each year” (p. 106). If economic recovery was not achieved, why was austerity continued? What was the real purpose behind austerity?

Laskos and Tsakalotos convincingly demonstrate that austerity has ultimately been a class project. It was used as opportunity by capital to strengthen its position vis-à-vis labour. It was used “as opportunity to finish the neoliberal modernizing project in terms of reducing wages and pensions, dismantling labour protection, and undertaking an even more radical program of privatization” (p. 103). The external role by the IMF, in co-operation with local elites, is crucial. “By the time of the second austerity programme, the IMF was making it clear that Greece should consider its competitors to include countries such as Bulgaria, and that consequently wage levels in the private sector still had some way to fall” (p. 111). An already highly unequal society was pushed into further inequality. “The adjustment programmes have raised inequality and poverty to new heights” (p. 131).

The Neoliberal Restructuring of Greece. Causes of the Crisis and the Austerity Response. | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization
 
Not that this will seep into, filter thru the noise, it is simply posted to remind anyone interested what the facts are:

Causes of the Crisis and the Austerity Response

Rather than locating the causes of the crisis within Greece itself, Laskos and Tsakalotos identify problems in the global economy in general, and the unevenness within the European Union (EU) in particular. The role of Germany and its export-led growth strategy is clearly at the heart of the problem. “Germany depends quite heavily on demand generated within the rest of the European Union,” the authors point out. “In 2007, when the trade account was 8.15 per cent of GDP, some 4.44 per cent of GDP (i.e. 63.4 per cent of the trade account surplus) originated in Germany’s surplus arising from its export of goods to other EU countries” (p. 86). Importantly, this not because Germany’s production was based on higher levels of productivity based on new technology and working practices. “In Greece productivity increases actually outstripped those in Germany, especially in the later period. Rather, it is the German restrictive wages policy after 2000 that made it almost impossible for the periphery to compete” (p. 83).

When Greece faced bankruptcy in 2010 and 2012, bailout packages were provided, but they came at the cost of permanent austerity imposed by the Troika consisting of the European Central Bank, the Commission and IMF. As the authors make clear, austerity has not solved the economic crisis. Instead, a vicious circle of austerity-recession-more austerity commenced, undermining further Greece’s productive capacities. “Industrial production (manufacturing, mining, electricity) fell by 23.3 per cent between October 2008 and October 2012, widening the gap between Greece and its EU partners” (p. 104). Moreover, “between 2010 and 2012 almost 60,000 enterprises closed down each year” (p. 106). If economic recovery was not achieved, why was austerity continued? What was the real purpose behind austerity?

Laskos and Tsakalotos convincingly demonstrate that austerity has ultimately been a class project. It was used as opportunity by capital to strengthen its position vis-à-vis labour. It was used “as opportunity to finish the neoliberal modernizing project in terms of reducing wages and pensions, dismantling labour protection, and undertaking an even more radical program of privatization” (p. 103). The external role by the IMF, in co-operation with local elites, is crucial. “By the time of the second austerity programme, the IMF was making it clear that Greece should consider its competitors to include countries such as Bulgaria, and that consequently wage levels in the private sector still had some way to fall” (p. 111). An already highly unequal society was pushed into further inequality. “The adjustment programmes have raised inequality and poverty to new heights” (p. 131).

The Neoliberal Restructuring of Greece. Causes of the Crisis and the Austerity Response. | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

Lender's aren't obligated to keep throwing money into a black hole.
 
Any moron knows Greece was in debt up to their ears and couldn't survive without loans and that their lenders demanded austerity measures before loaning them any more money. I really don't know how you can dispute that. That's not even up for debate. You can try debating the reasons for it all but you can't debate those simple facts.

Seriously, MR, you are in way over your head when the discussion turns to the EU. You don't understand your own country's economic system, let alone the Eurozone's.

A lot of Greece's problems are out of their control. The whole Eurozone is set up to favor Germany. It's like California competing economically with Mississippi, but with no federal government to even things out.

...and it's not the subject of this thread.
 
Seriously, MR, you are in way over your head when the discussion turns to the EU. You don't understand your own country's economic system, let alone the Eurozone's.

A lot of Greece's problems are out of their control. The whole Eurozone is set up to favor Germany. It's like California competing economically with Mississippi, but with no federal government to even things out.

...and it's not the subject of this thread.

If it's not the subject of this thread then why are you talking about it? Greece is the cause of their own problems for repeatedly spending more money than they were taking in and it finally bit them in the ass so much that they couldn't dig themselves out of the whole they created without the help of loans to pay off loans. This is what we have to look forward to when our debt gets maxed out in relation to GDP. The only difference between us and them is that we have a lot more room to work with due to the size of our economy compared to theirs. And don't give me any crap about how our money system is different. So far no one has rightly brought that up in this discussion, not even your MMT friends.
 
If it doesn't need to be paid back then why is it a loan and why do we pay interest on the loan?

Because federal debt isn't the same as individual debt. You understand that, right?
 
Greece should have never had such liberal policies that austerity was needed.

Greece's problems were far more complex than that. And austerity didn't work. It was also based on lies. Lies, for some reason, you still adhere to today. It's been six years since Greece had to go through austerity, is the nation any better off? No. So if your prescription of austerity didn't work for Greece, why would it work anywhere?


If no one was willing to loan money to Greece anymore then what would they do?

Get an EU bailout.


t is not mandatory for a lender to throw money down a never ending pit.

That isn't what caused the crisis in Greece.
 
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Because federal debt isn't the same as individual debt. You understand that, right?

You didn't answer the question. Why is it called a loan and why do they pay interest on it?
 
Greece's problems were far more complex than that. And austerity didn't work. It was also based on lies. Lies, for some reason, you still adhere to today. It's been six years since Greece had to go through austerity, is the nation any better off? No. So if your prescription of austerity didn't work for Greece, why would it work anywhere?




Get an EU bailout.




That isn't what caused the crisis in Greece.

What liberals don't understand is that austerity does not have just one definition. They seem to think that if you cut expenses by one dollar then it is called austerity. Too much austerity can indeed backfire but when you continually spend more than you are taking in you have to do things to become more fiscally responsible. You just can't do too much all at once, you have to kind of ease into it. I actually haven't seen any evidence that Greece is worse off fiscally since austerity. There's always social problems when you have to remove the government tit from those who know of no other food. These people start having temper tantrums like a two year old. In almost all cases, it is ridiculous that breastfeeding is the only source of food for able bodied adults. The pension plans Greece had were outrageous.
 
You didn't answer the question. Why is it called a loan and why do they pay interest on it?

It's not a loan, per se, it's an issuing of bonds. You as an individual cannot issue bonds of yourself, can you?
 
What liberals don't understand is that austerity does not have just one definition.

And here we go...the goalposts start to move. Austerity has only one definition. We have tried it internationally and domestically and in both cases, it was a failure. Mostly because the motives behind it were nefarious and the policy itself was based on deliberate lies. Whoever thought that cutting spending amidst an economic recession seriously deserves a swift kick in the groin because it makes no sense. A recession is caused by people holding back spending...if you also hold back federal spending, what is filling the void of demand? Conservatives like to think that increased consumption from the top fills that void, but as we saw with the Bush Tax Cuts, the wealthy save, not spend their tax cuts.


I actually haven't seen any evidence that Greece is worse off fiscally since austerity.

Maybe you're being willfully ignorant.

Greece's unemployment rate in December, 2009 (pre-austerity): 10.7%
Greece's unemployment rate in June, 2016 (after nearly six years of austerity): 23.4%

So which is higher? 10.7% or 23.4%?
 
There's always social problems when you have to remove the government tit from those who know of no other food.

Boy, are you red-staters in store for a sh*tty four years.
 
if there's no shortage of supply of doctors' time, but there's increased demand of their time, then the lowering of prices is not going against any normal pricing models. It's not "an increase in demand in the face of a shortage of doctors", it's just an increase in demand without a corresponding shortage. And since it's low-hanging fruit for the doctors (cash payments, no insurance billing, short visits), they fight for the business by lowering prices.

No.. its an increase in demand with no change in supply. So demand is outstripping supply.


And its not low hanging fruit. Not at all. Because that same time that spent doing a sports physical .. could be spent on things that are reimbursed at much much higher rates. Generally 4 times the amount.
 
I actually haven't seen any evidence that Greece is worse off fiscally since austerity.
Well, that is because you have not looked, that is because even when I post documentation specifically on this topic, you can say something like this 30 hours later. So is the problem retention, or is it ignoring?
 
No.. generally the offices expand hours and pay extra time..

No.. its an increase in demand with no change in supply. So demand is outstripping supply.


And its not low hanging fruit. Not at all. Because that same time that spent doing a sports physical .. could be spent on things that are reimbursed at much much higher rates. Generally 4 times the amount.

Since the hours of office operation are the supply in this case, you're arguing for both sides here.

If the doctor's office can expand hours at the drop of a hat, then there's no shortage; there is an increase of supply congruent with demand. So they can easily meet the increased demand of their office's time to take advantage of that increased demand and their ability to increase market share by lowering prices.

EDIT : and it IS low-hanging fruit. The doctor can have one of their PAs spend 6 minutes with the patient to do the physical, and have the nursing staff run the vitals (i.e., the patient never sees the actual doctor). All for the low low price of $79, usually paid in cash so there's no insurance billing to handle so the overhead cost is lower.
 
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