MMT'rs Are Fighting A War Against Seniors

Moderate Right · Dec 27, 2016

Critter7r said:
No. I'm arguing that they don't need increased assistance in the face of low/no inflation. And then when inflation makes a comeback, a COLA is in order. Do you even know what a COLA is? (Hint: It ain't a Pepsi)

blah blah blah partisan hackery blah blah blah.

Ha. Ha. Ha. If seniors are getting public assistance and don't need any more then public assistance is enough for everyone and no one needs any more. Otherwise it is a war on seniors and age discrimination. More liberal hypocrisy. They are dead set against discrimination of all kinds and yet it is OK to discriminate against seniors. The young are generally more liberal than the older so all they care about are themselves and to hell with the seniors.

Critter7r · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
Ha. Ha. Ha. If seniors are getting public assistance and don't need any more then public assistance is enough for everyone and no one needs any more. Otherwise it is a war on seniors and age discrimination. More liberal hypocrisy. They are dead set against discrimination of all kinds and yet it is OK to discriminate against seniors. The young are generally more liberal than the older so all they care about are themselves and to hell with the seniors.

If you want to make an argument that the current levels of SS are inadequate, perhaps you could make a thread about that, instead of trying to make a connection between MMT and SS.

I don't have any problem with discussions about increasing SS levels if it's needed. Oddly enough, however, the maximum SS benefit works out to be about equal to a 40 hour per week, $15/hr job.

Moderate Right · Dec 27, 2016

Critter7r said:
No, they're not.

Inflation occurs because of economic conditions that are not directly controlled by any one entity. Interest rates are directly controlled only by the Fed. The Fed changes interest rates IN RESPONSE to those economic conditions, in an effort to push the economy in a favorable direction.

I don't even know what you're getting at here. MMT has nothing to do with Social Security. You've strayed really far from the reservation with this line of argument.

So, you are saying that the fed controls all interest rates everywhere? No interest rates of any kind are market related?

MMT'rs claim that both inflation and interest rates will never rise again and they will do whatever is in their power to continually screw seniors with low interest rates and low inflation. Seniors need decent interest rates to supplement their income and continued low inflation causes them to not get any COLA's or get small COLA's. Inflation is made up of many factors. Just because inflation is low overall doesn't mean that seniors costs on certain items aren't going up. Just one example is medical costs. Increased health costs hurt seniors and seniors don't use much gas so if gas prices and food (which they eat less of) go down and their medical costs go up, this causes the overall inflation rate to be low, their COLA's could be zero, but their costs of the things they use go up. This is MMT'rs war on seniors.

sangha · Dec 27, 2016

Critter7r said:
Because they haven't had ANY wage increases. They haven't even gotten adjustments for inflation over the past decade, retirees HAVE.

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/colaseries.html

And the rest of this is just you trying to make an emotional plea so people with rally behind you holding your torch and pitchfork.

That was a pretty funny exchange. You eviscerated his argument and his response is to pretend he said what you said. And then he goes on and repeats his nonsense about how keeping interest low is at the expense of seniors.

:lamo

sangha · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
Ha. Ha. You guys find more and more ways of deflecting instead of answering, just as liberals are finding more and more ways of saying that Hillary's loss wasn't her fault or the fault of liberal policies. .

Talks about the Clinton campaign in a thread that has nothing to do with the election

Complains that other posters are deflecting :lamo

sangha · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
Isn't the degree of inflation the same?

:doh
umm, interest rates and inflation rates are two different things

Critter7r · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
So, you are saying that the fed controls all interest rates everywhere? No interest rates of any kind are market related?

aaaaaaaaaaand we're back to trolling.

MMT'rs claim that both inflation and interest rates will never rise again ...

No they don't.

...and they will do whatever is in their power to continually screw seniors with low interest rates and low inflation.

How does the ability to borrow money cheaply and not lose savings value screw seniors?

Seniors need decent interest rates to supplement their income ...

Right, those that are well-off enough to have money to invest, that is. But those same seniors are the ones that would likely be getting along just fine without SS, too.

... and continued low inflation causes them to not get any COLA's or get small COLA's. Inflation is made up of many factors. Just because inflation is low overall doesn't mean that seniors costs on certain items aren't going up. Just one example is medical costs. Increased health costs hurt seniors and seniors don't use much gas so if gas prices and food (which they eat less of) go down and their medical costs go up, this causes the overall inflation rate to be low, their COLA's could be zero, but their costs of the things they use go up. This is MMT'rs war on seniors.

So now MMT controls the cost of gas, food and health care?

mmi · Dec 27, 2016

JohnfrmClevelan said:
Do something with your free time besides displaying your incredible ignorance on DP.

This thread goes well beyond ignorance, moving far across the line into a region of stupidity that is almost shocking even by RW DP standards.

Moderate Right said:
Hillary lost [because s]he told the jobless and underemployed in her very own blue states that they should be happy with the way things are

Clinton cleaned up in many of the so-called blue states — HI (62-30), CA (62-33), VT (61-33), MA (61-34), MD (61-35), NY (59-38), IL (55-39), WA (54-38), RI (55-40), CT (55-41), NJ (55-42), and OR (52-41). She also took VA, MN, CO, NV, NM, NH, and ME.

She lost in the Electoral College vote because she was narrowly defeated in MI (47.6-47.4), WI (47.3-46.5), and PA (48.4-47.3).

Moderate Right said:
MMT'rs … will do whatever is in their power to continually screw seniors with low interest rates and low inflation.

How does low inflation "screw seniors"?

>>Seniors need decent interest rates to supplement their income

How can low-income seniors benefit more than marginally from higher interest rates? Ya think they have a hundred grand in wealth that earns interest?

>>continued low inflation causes them to not get any COLA's or get small COLA's.

Liberals stopped the Right from changing the calculation of the CPI to a "chained" model that would have led to smaller COLAs. RWers complain that taxpayers are being screwed by Demecrats who "pay off" seniors. As always, you have no idea what yer talking about.

Moderate Right · Dec 27, 2016

Critter7r said:
If you want to make an argument that the current levels of SS are inadequate, perhaps you could make a thread about that, instead of trying to make a connection between MMT and SS.

I don't have any problem with discussions about increasing SS levels if it's needed. Oddly enough, however, the maximum SS benefit works out to be about equal to a 40 hour per week, $15/hr job.

It still boils down to the fact that MMT policy is to keep interest rates low and seniors need higher interest rates on their savings to make ends meet so that they don't need more social security or more public assistance. MMT does have a war against seniors.

Critter7r · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
It still boils down to the fact that MMT policy is to keep interest rates low ...

it's not

and seniors need higher interest rates on their savings to make ends meet ...

they don't

so that they don't need more social security or more public assistance.

without inflation, they have little/no need for increased SS payments

MMT does have a war against seniors.

this is getting repetitive

Critter7r · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
Ha. Ha. Ha. If seniors are getting public assistance and don't need any more then public assistance is enough for everyone and no one needs any more. Otherwise it is a war on seniors and age discrimination.

As opposed to your war on the poor? I find it ironic and hypocritical that you repeatedly cry that the poor don't need any more than they are currently getting, but somehow seniors need more and more every year regardless of economic conditions.

More liberal hypocrisy. They are dead set against discrimination of all kinds and yet it is OK to discriminate against seniors.

And you think it's ok for you to discriminate against the poor.

The young are generally more liberal than the older so all they care about are themselves and to hell with the seniors.

partisan, rhetorical BS

Moderate Right · Dec 27, 2016

Critter7r said:
it's not

they don't

without inflation, they have little/no need for increased SS payments

this is getting repetitive

According to you MMT guys we will never have higher inflation or interest rates ever again and there you go with your war on seniors again by saying that seniors don't need higher interest rates on their savings to make ends meet, even while admitting that many seniors need public assistance. How can you be so cold hearted and uncaring?

Moderate Right · Dec 27, 2016

Critter7r said:
As opposed to your war on the poor? I find it ironic and hypocritical that you repeatedly cry that the poor don't need any more than they are currently getting, but somehow seniors need more and more every year regardless of economic conditions.

And you think it's ok for you to discriminate against the poor.

partisan, rhetorical BS

I never said the poor don't need help but it doesn't help them by closing small businesses by forcing them to pay double their wages when most small business owners are living paycheck to paycheck themselves. Small businesses only option to make ends meet by doubling their labor costs is by increasing their prices and who pays for these increased prices? The very people that are getting the raises because they are the ones who spend 100% of their money. The rich don't pay it. The poor need help at getting out of their holes so that they can get off of the government dole. Just giving them more money only gives them more money, it does not address the root cause of their problem in the first place and only increases their drug dependency. None of that changes the fact that MMT'rs have a war on seniors.

Critter7r · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
According to you MMT guys we will never have higher inflation or interest rates ever again and there you go with your war on seniors again by saying that seniors don't need higher interest rates on their savings to make ends meet, even while admitting that many seniors need public assistance. How can you be so cold hearted and uncaring?

this is getting repetitive

Moderate Right · Dec 27, 2016

Critter7r said:
this is getting repetitive

You want to keep the war on seniors repetitive for many years to come. To you, the younger people need more money but to hell with the seniors. To MMT'rs seniors don't need any more money (as you so eloquently stated), even though many can't survive without government assistance. That's not only a war on them but it is discriminatory. You guys are such hypocrites because you claim you are against discrimination and yet you favor discriminating against seniors.

Critter7r · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
You want to keep the war on seniors repetitive for many years to come. To you, the younger people need more money but to hell with the seniors.

Again, if you want to rally for higher SS payments, go right ahead. But right now you're saying that in the absence of inflation, it's unfair to not give a COLA to those on SS.

If there's no increase in the cost of living, then a Cost Of Living Adjustment seems unnecessary.

Also, this is getting repetitive

To MMT'rs seniors don't need any more money (as you so eloquently stated), even though many can't survive without government assistance. That's not only a war on them but it is discriminatory. You guys are such hypocrites because you claim you are against discrimination and yet you favor discriminating against seniors.

You keep saying the same thing and I keep pointing out that you're mischaracterizing what I say.

So we can be done here.

Moderate Right · Dec 27, 2016

Critter7r said:
Again, if you want to rally for higher SS payments, go right ahead. But right now you're saying that in the absence of inflation, it's unfair to not give a COLA to those on SS.

If there's no increase in the cost of living, then a Cost Of Living Adjustment seems unnecessary.

Also, this is getting repetitive

You keep saying the same thing and I keep pointing out that you're mischaracterizing what I say.

So we can be done here.

You keep on dodging the fact that seniors need higher interest rates to get income from their savings. You say, no they don't need any income from their savings. You would rather have them get government assistance instead. When will your war on seniors end? They don't want government assistance, they want a decent income from their savings.

sangha · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
You keep on dodging the fact that seniors need higher interest rates to get income from their savings.

That may be because it is not a fact

Moderate Right · Dec 27, 2016

Critter7r said:
As opposed to your war on the poor? I find it ironic and hypocritical that you repeatedly cry that the poor don't need any more than they are currently getting, but somehow seniors need more and more every year regardless of economic conditions.

And you think it's ok for you to discriminate against the poor.

partisan, rhetorical BS

So, I have finally gotten you to admit that you do have a war on seniors. By the way, seniors are a legally protected class, the poor are not.

mmi · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
They don't want government assistance, they want a decent income from their savings.

What savings?

Among households with members approaching retirement, the median savings balance is just $17,000. (source)

Higher interest rates would provide only a few hundred dollars in additional annual income. And they better not need to borrow money to buy a car or repair the house or pay medical bills if rates are up.

And of course it's those in the lower quintiles who have VERY little savings.

Many retirees and workers approaching retirement have limited financial resources. About half of households age 55 and older have no retirement savings (such as in a 401(k) plan or an IRA). (source)

I suppose Ignorance is bliss.

Visbek · Dec 27, 2016

Moderate Right said:
According to you MMT guys we will never have higher inflation or interest rates ever again and there you go with your war on seniors again by saying that seniors don't need higher interest rates on their savings to make ends meet, even while admitting that many seniors need public assistance. How can you be so cold hearted and uncaring?

It's not "cold-hearted" to actually know what you're talking about.

As noted by MMI, most seniors today have almost no savings. Most of their net worth is in their homes. At 10% interest, a $20,000 savings account yields $2000 per year. While that's better than $20 a year, it's not going to save seniors, and it certainly isn't going to replace Social Security.

Higher inflation is bad for seniors. It erodes the value of what little savings they have, and makes everything cost more.

Higher inflation does not increase the purchasing power of Social Security. It erodes it, until the government makes a cost of living increase to match it. Wishing for massive inflation, so seniors can get more money from Social Security, is ridiculous.

Higher interest rates can be bad for seniors, for several reasons.

• It will take years to inch interest rates up to even 5%, and that's not very high as far as a savings account goes -- especially since around 3% of that gets whacked off by inflation in a typical year.

• The only reason to have very high interest rates (say, 15%) is if inflation is galloping out of control, and the Fed is using high interest rates to cool things down. The last time that happened was when Reagan took office, and it caused a recession.

• Going from 1% to 15% overnight would decimate the economy. The only way that can happen right now is if the Fed sends the overnight rate through the roof, which makes it expensive for banks to borrow, which means the banks won't lend, which means no one gets to borrow, which causes another financial crisis and global recession. Hard to see how that would be good for seniors.

As noted, if you want to give seniors more Social Security, then Congress needs to vote for an increase. But that is going to cause a whole host of issues. The Trust Fund is already going to run out around 2032, so if you want to give seniors more money, you're either going to hasten the demise of the Trust Fund, or you need to raise payroll taxes to pay for it.

What's your preference?

Critter7r · Dec 28, 2016

Moderate Right said:
So, I have finally gotten you to admit that you do have a war on seniors.

Where in that post do I say, "Yes, I am waging a war on seniors?" (Hint: nowhere)

By the way, seniors are a legally protected class, the poor are not.

Redheads aren't a protected class either, why are you waging a war on redheads?

Moderate Right · Dec 28, 2016

Critter7r said:
Where in that post do I say, "Yes, I am waging a war on seniors?" (Hint: nowhere)

Redheads aren't a protected class either, why are you waging a war on redheads?

Hah! Trying to change the subject? I accept your pathetic surrender. You have said numerous times, the hell with seniors. MMT and liberal policies come first, exactly what Hillary was trying to argue. The hell with job losses in blue and battleground states, we've got liberal policy objectives that come first. We don't care about white worker's jobs and job losses. There's nothing we can do about it anyway because we're too busy trying to make McDonalds and Walmart pay their workers $15 per hour so we've got your back when those $24 per hour jobs leave the country.

Critter7r · Dec 28, 2016

Moderate Right said:
Hah! Trying to change the subject? I accept your pathetic surrender

I responded to your post. If anyone changed the subject, it was you. So I accept your pathetic surrender.

You have said numerous times, the hell with seniors.

you are delusional. I've never posted anything of the sort.

The hell with job losses in blue and battleground states, we've got liberal policy objectives that come first. We don't care about white worker's jobs and job losses. There's nothing we can do about it anyway because we're too busy trying to make McDonalds and Walmart pay their workers $15 per hour so we've got your back when those $24 per hour jobs leave the country.

Talk about changing the subject.

I accept your pathetic surrender.

Moderate Right · Dec 28, 2016

Critter7r said:
I responded to your post. If anyone changed the subject, it was you. So I accept your pathetic surrender.

you are delusional. I've never posted anything of the sort.

Talk about changing the subject.

I accept your pathetic surrender.

When will your war on seniors end, after they are dead and buried and only younger people rule the planet?

MMT'rs Are Fighting A War Against Seniors

Stuck In The Circle