It is who you give the tax cuts to![W:260]

VanceMack · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Incisor said:
No. The purpose of tax cuts is to manufacture deficits in order to gut the social safety net so it can be sold off to private interests.

Tax cuts do not stimulate economic growth. They never have and they never will.

And those Bush Tax Cuts were responsible for the Housing Bubble and subsequent collapse. Bush even campaigned on that connection in 2004 when he tied his tax cut policy to the record level of home ownership.

:lamo

You HONESTLY believe the tax cuts were responsible for the housing bubble?

:lamo

Buuuuuuh bye. you have zero credibility.

Incisor · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

VanceMack said:
You HONESTLY believe the tax cuts were responsible for the housing bubble?

No. I don't. I think the tax cuts were responsible for the poor economy until the housing bubble started. I also think the tax cuts are responsible for the lion's share of our national debt and deficit. And I know that the tax cuts did not deliver on the promises made of them, as household debt skyrocketed during the tax cuts, while 811,000 private sector jobs were lost between 2001-2004. I just used that argument to show that Bush and the Conservatives were making the connection between the tax cuts and the housing market as early as 2004.

Buuuuuuh bye. you have zero credibility.

This is just your way of saying you don't really have a defensible position in this debate.

Critter7r · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

independentusa said:
The Bush tax cuts should have been focused on the poor and the middle income eaners, but a great portion went to the wealthy. These cuts did little to help the economy. We are a consumer driven economy. Where the wealthy may have invested most or all of the tax relief they got from the Bush tax cuts, where they invested it wasn't in the US. The poor and the middle income wage earners spent most or all of what they received. The problem was the little they got individually from the tax cuts on top of stagnent wages actually hurt the economy by limiting demand, something very important in a consumer driven economy. So much so that we were almost in a depression when Obama got into office. People complain about the slow growth of the economy since Obama came into office. Without an increase in the poor and middle income earners purchasing power or/and an increase in real wages, economic growth may remain slow. The last few months we have seen a growth in real income. Now if Trump and the GOP aim their tax cuts at the poor and middle income earners, we may stimulate the economy and see really good growth numbers. If we just give more money to the wealthy all we will do is increase the deficit.

jonny5 said:
Maybe, but that wasnt the point. The op claimed not giving the lower incomes more tax cut led to lower demand. It didnt obviously.

And he didn't say it did. "Hurt the economy by limiting demand" doesn't require an actual reduction of demand.

Demand was up, GDP was up, jobs were up. Furthermore the greater amount of money DID go to the lower income, though it was distributed among more people. 2/3 of the tax savings went to the bottom 99%, iirc.

You're ****ing kidding me right?

That means that 33% of the tax savings went to 1%. And that sits ok with you??

This makes sense, given they pay a smaller share of income tax than the top 1%. You can only cut the bottom 99% income tax so far.

Oh, I guess it does sit ok with you.

Carry on. Nothing to see here.

VanceMack · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Incisor said:
No. I don't. I think the tax cuts were responsible for the poor economy until the housing bubble started. I also think the tax cuts are responsible for the lion's share of our national debt and deficit. And I know that the tax cuts did not deliver on the promises made of them, as household debt skyrocketed during the tax cuts, while 811,000 private sector jobs were lost between 2001-2004. I just used that argument to show that Bush and the Conservatives were making the connection between the tax cuts and the housing market as early as 2004.

This is just your way of saying you don't really have a defensible position in this debate.

"And those Bush Tax Cuts were responsible for the Housing Bubble and subsequent collapse." Do you HONESTLY believe that? "No. I don't."

Buuuuuuuuuuuh bye.

Absentglare · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

VanceMack said:
"And those Bush Tax Cuts were responsible for the Housing Bubble and subsequent collapse." Do you HONESTLY believe that? "No. I don't."

Buuuuuuuuuuuh bye.

That wasn't what he said. I believe he was saying that the tax cuts didn't boost the economy anywhere near where they were intended to. That's true.

jonny5 · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Incisor said:
No, it's a lie...and if he believes it, that makes him stupid too.

So he's a stupid liar, and that's the defense you're using? Yeesh.

Opinions are not lies. Get used to it. Yeesh.

jonny5 · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Critter7r said:
And he didn't say it did. "Hurt the economy by limiting demand" doesn't require an actual reduction of demand.

You're ****ing kidding me right?

That means that 33% of the tax savings went to 1%. And that sits ok with you??

Oh, I guess it does sit ok with you.

Carry on. Nothing to see here.

So you dont want an response?

iguanaman · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Moderate Right said:
When the rich get tax cuts they don't bury the extra money in their back yards. That's what you liberals just don't understand.

No they put it in hedge funds to bid up prices on commodities we all buy.

Kushinator · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

jonny5 said:
Opinions are not lies. Get used to it. Yeesh.

No, they can be wrong and based on ignorance.

Moderate Right · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

iguanaman said:
No they put it in hedge funds to bid up prices on commodities we all buy.

That graph is absolutely no proof of what you said. This is not even good cherry picking. All you got were rotten berries and tried to prove something using those rotten berries.

iguanaman · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Moderate Right said:
That graph is absolutely no proof of what you said. This is not even good cherry picking. All you got were rotten berries and tried to prove something using those rotten berries.

The graph shows hedge fund deposits over doubled in the years 2000 to 2004 and more than tripled by the time Bush left office. Are you saying that none of that over a TRILLION $ came from the Bush tax cuts? Don't be foolish. Most of it did.

OpportunityCost · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Incisor said:
Interestingly, Moody's did an analysis on what the wealthy do with their tax cuts and -surprise- they don't spend them, contrary to what Conservatives say about trickle-down.

Moody's? The same guys that gamed the housing market? So reliable and ethical.

Kushinator · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

OpportunityCost said:
Moody's? The same guys that gamed the housing market? So reliable and ethical.

Actually, it is their economic division, which is a different department than their investor services subsidiary (Mark Zandi, the head of Moody's Analytics, is one of the most respected private sector economists in the world). This also makes the most basic economic sense; those with the highest savings rates will not alter consumption based on tax policy.

Do you disagree basic economic logic?

TurtleDude · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

independentusa said:
The Bush tax cuts should have been focused on the poor and the middle income eaners, but a great portion went to the wealthy. These cuts did little to help the economy. We are a consumer driven economy. Where the wealthy may have invested most or all of the tax relief they got from the Bush tax cuts, where they invested it wasn't in the US. The poor and the middle income wage earners spent most or all of what they received. The problem was the little they got individually from the tax cuts on top of stagnent wages actually hurt the economy by limiting demand, something very important in a consumer driven economy. So much so that we were almost in a depression when Obama got into office. People complain about the slow growth of the economy since Obama came into office. Without an increase in the poor and middle income earners purchasing power or/and an increase in real wages, economic growth may remain slow. The last few months we have seen a growth in real income. Now if Trump and the GOP aim their tax cuts at the poor and middle income earners, we may stimulate the economy and see really good growth numbers. If we just give more money to the wealthy all we will do is increase the deficit.

the poor and middle class don't pay enough taxes. that's why they want more and more government

Kushinator · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

TurtleDude said:
the poor and middle class don't pay enough taxes. that's why they want more and more government

This is an opinion based on class warfare rhetoric. It is a position that lacks consideration of economic growth and development.

Kushinator · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Moderate Right said:
That graph is absolutely no proof of what you said. This is not even good cherry picking. All you got were rotten berries and tried to prove something using those rotten berries.

What is with you and crying cherry picking? Any data which depicts your partisan agenda in a less than favorable light is cherry picking.

TurtleDude · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Kushinator said:
This is an opinion based on class warfare rhetoric. It is a position that lacks consideration of economic growth and development.

its a position that is based on the undeniable fact that the middle and poor classes pay less a share of the income tax than they receive in income. as a result, they don't understand the true cost of government and continue to vote for politicians who promise more and more government.

its time they start paying for what they use or demand the government spend less

real class warfare is the progressive income tax scheme-its a ploy of the very rich and the lower classes aimed at the upper middle class and the lower tiers of the top one percent

OpportunityCost · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Kushinator said:
Actually, it is their economic division, which is a different department than their investor services subsidiary (Mark Zandi, the head of Moody's Analytics, is one of the most respected private sector economists in the world). This also makes the most basic economic sense; those with the highest savings rates will not alter consumption based on tax policy.

Do you disagree basic economic logic?

If they don't spend them, what happens to the money that is saved or invested?

Kushinator · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

TurtleDude said:
its a position that is based on the undeniable fact that the middle and poor classes pay less a share of the income tax than they receive in income.

The middle class and poor face budgetary constraints, such that, raising taxes impedes their ability to consume. Impeding ones ability to consume is a drag on economic growth and development. This is an undeniable fact that you are too single-minded to accept.

as a result, they don't understand the true cost of government and continue to vote for politicians who promise more and more government.

Empty partisan rhetoric encapsulated in a class warfare framework.

its time they start paying for what they use or demand the government spend less

You are more than welcome to ignore the line between use and benefit. The wealthy benefit far more from government than the poor.

real class warfare is the progressive income tax scheme-its a ploy of the very rich and the lower classes aimed at the upper middle class and the lower tiers of the top one percent

Progressive income taxes improve economic efficiency, which is a positive for long term economic growth and development. You are in no position to deny this statement.

Kushinator · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

OpportunityCost said:
If they don't spend them, what happens to the money that is saved or invested?

Savings ≠ Investment all the time, unless we want to ignore the dynamics of each input. If savings increases as a function of income gains, it will lead to greater investment. The opposite, savings increasing as a function of income loss, is why we have economic downturns. Every single recession can be identified by such data... or do you disagree?

So what happens when when savings end up as bank reserves?

TurtleDude · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Kushinator said:
The middle class and poor face budgetary constraints, such that, raising taxes impedes their ability to consume. Impeding ones ability to consume is a drag on economic growth and development. This is an undeniable fact that you are too single-minded to accept.

Empty partisan rhetoric encapsulated in a class warfare framework.

You are more than welcome to ignore the line between use and benefit. The wealthy benefit far more from government than the poor.

Progressive income taxes improve economic efficiency, which is a positive for long term economic growth and development. You are in no position to deny this statement.

I am in a position to state that I oppose a progressive income tax scheme for the reasons that it encourages politicians to pander to the many when their promises are paid for by a voting minority. You are in no position to deny that and the rich do not benefit more from government. Without social welfare, the least able would starve. Like they have throughout history

Kushinator · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

TurtleDude said:
I am in a position to state that I oppose a progressive income tax scheme

Opinion noted, and not derived from economic logic.

for the reasons that it encourages politicians to pander to the many when their promises are paid for by a voting minority.

Opinion noted for partisan talking points.

You are in no position to deny that and the rich do not benefit more from government.

I don't have to agree with your single-minded opinion. Of course the wealthy benefit the most from government.... How would business be able to evolve without various property rights? William Gates, Steven Jobs, Lawerence Page, etc... (really wealthy people) would not be in such a reality without government.

Without social welfare, the least able would starve.

Probably not. We would just have less wealthy people, as the ability to consume production would be far less than it is today.

Like they have throughout history

People and technology have evolved throughout history. The amount of food produced on one acre has increased by 800% from 1940.

Your class warfare rhetoric has no power here.

TurtleDude · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

Kushinator said:
Opinion noted, and not derived from economic logic.

Opinion noted for partisan talking points.

I don't have to agree with your single-minded opinion. Of course the wealthy benefit the most from government.... How would business be able to evolve without various property rights? William Gates, Steven Jobs, Lawerence Page, etc... (really wealthy people) would not be in such a reality without government.

Probably not. We would just have less wealthy people, as the ability to consume production would be far less than it is today.

People and technology have evolved throughout history. The amount of food produced on one acre has increased by 800% from 1940.

Your class warfare rhetoric has no power here.

you are the one who promotes class warfare, you pretend that the rich exist to fund the rest of the country. I want a political system where those who want more government have to pay more every time the government spends more on them. Its sort of what I call economic FEEDBACK right now, we have a system where some demand more and more and no one makes them pay more

Kushinator · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

TurtleDude said:
you are the one who promotes class warfare, you pretend that the rich exist to fund the rest of the country.

Projection.

I want a political system where those who want more government have to pay more every time the government spends more on them.

So you support MMT?

Its sort of what I call economic FEEDBACK right now, we have a system where some demand more and more and no one makes them pay more

Opinionated drivel. You lack an economic argument... so you try to substitute with class warfare. Sorry, you fail.

Moderate Right · Nov 23, 2016

Re: It is who you give the tax cuts to!

iguanaman said:
The graph shows hedge fund deposits over doubled in the years 2000 to 2004 and more than tripled by the time Bush left office. Are you saying that none of that over a TRILLION $ came from the Bush tax cuts? Don't be foolish. Most of it did.

I never said that none of it did. I just said that your graph proves absolutely nothing. I can also say that since the invention of the wheel people don't have any muscles anymore. So what? You are forming a conclusion based off of incomplete evidence.

It is who you give the tax cuts to![W:260]

VanceMack

Less like the tiger...more like the lion.

Incisor

Critter7r

VanceMack

Less like the tiger...more like the lion.

Absentglare

jonny5

jonny5

iguanaman

Kushinator

I'm not-low all the time

Moderate Right

iguanaman

OpportunityCost

Kushinator

I'm not-low all the time

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

Kushinator

I'm not-low all the time

Kushinator

I'm not-low all the time

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

OpportunityCost

Kushinator

I'm not-low all the time

Kushinator

I'm not-low all the time

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

Kushinator

I'm not-low all the time

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

Kushinator

I'm not-low all the time

Moderate Right