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More Proof That MMT Is Nonsense

Seems clear t' me. Otoh, I can accept a non-response.

>>Yeah we're past that.

You are, others aren't.

But I'm the one to whom you're replying.

>>You also curiously sliced out the context of my 'helicopter money

Did I?

Yes.

You also referred to a "basic income guarantee." Does accepting the basic tenets of MMT require support for either of those policies, or really any polices?

It would make it all the more confusing if you didn't.

>>why wouldn't you be advocating helicopter money in Japan, and what would you say to Shinzo Abe and Haruhiko Kuroda about what they're doing wrong?

I'm largely ignorant of the Japanese economy. It's not improving much as I understand it, but I figure it's not doing poorly either. I did offer this comment a few weeks ago:

Japan has a number of issues, some of them demographic (aging population, low birth rate, and very low levels of immigration), some of them structural (ongoing difficulty adjusting to the end of the rapid postwar expansion that has led to substantially lower levels of consumer spending and domestic investment, and fairly rigid labor and industrial practices, especially those related to retirement), and some of them circumstantial (the ongoing effects of the GOP SSE Great Recession on world markets, a relatively strong currency in recent months).​

That's all good for context, and I'm no expert on Japan either, but Japan seems to be a great illustrative example, because they're such an outlier, to test the assertions of Modern Monetary Theorists against those who remain worried about the country and its economy and currency and feel there are no easy answers.
 
I'm the one to whom you're replying.

This is a public forum.

>>It would make it all the more confusing if you didn't.

I don't believe I'm responsible for yer confusion.

>>Japan seems to be a great illustrative example, because they're such an outlier, to test the assertions of Modern Monetary Theorists

Test in what sense? With policy prescriptions that aren't really connected to the theory?

>those who remain worried about the country and its economy and currency and feel there are no easy answers.

I'd say anyone with common sense would be concerned about having the Japanese economy improve and would agree that there are no easy answers. Are you saying MMT provides easy answers in this context?
 
This is a public forum.

>>It would make it all the more confusing if you didn't.

I don't believe I'm responsible for yer confusion.

>>Japan seems to be a great illustrative example, because they're such an outlier, to test the assertions of Modern Monetary Theorists

Test in what sense? With policy prescriptions that aren't really connected to the theory?

>those who remain worried about the country and its economy and currency and feel there are no easy answers.

I'd say anyone with common sense would be concerned about having the Japanese economy improve and would agree that there are no easy answers. Are you saying MMT provides easy answers in this context?

I'm not sure what MMT-types would say about Japan anymore. I've heard them balk at the pessimists and equivocate, but not really clearly lay out what MMT would say or do about Japan. On that note, here's an interesting chart showing the effect of their easing policy:

Capture.JPG

"Governor Kuroda’s quantitative easing has had zero impact on Japan’s money supply and credit growth," says [Richard Koo, chief economist at the Nomura Research Institute] - Bloomberg.
 
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Because this is a political thing, too. Half of this country would be dissatisfied no matter how we go forward. Making people work for their money is far more politically palatable than simply giving money away, even if it accomplishes the same thing - increased consumption and economic stability. Production really isn't the goal, especially the kind of "production" that you can buy off the shelf. The goal isn't to compete with the private sector for anything but labor.

I understand what you're saying, but I rail pretty hard against pretentious employment of the people whose labor neither the public nor private sector actually want to buy under any normal circumstances. To me there would be an inescapable Arbeit Macht Frei flavor to a workfare-based welfare state, in which the entitlements to the day's ration require the performance of meaningless labor. And honestly, the people I find often most forcefully supportive of workfare are freedom-loving conservatives who need to step back and think about what they're advocating.

But there are meaningful differences as well. Remember that the job guarantee also involved expanding jobs throughout the public sector, not just guaranteeing make-work jobs at the bottom.

I guess I just disagree first and foremost with how it's packaged/labeled.

I imagine that there would be allowances for those who could not work, and for those who would not work. I'm not going to torpedo a works program based on a few bad apples, though. Compare your concerns about unemployable people in a job guarantee system versus what we deal with now - lots of unemployed people that still need to be fed and sheltered, and all of the other problems that come with unemployment. How does any economic/political system deal with such people? Right now, we are putting a lot of them in jail - at great expense, too.

Not going to argue against anything you said there at this point.

Throwing money at our private sector in an effort to employ more people not only doesn't work, it's also a lot more expensive per employee.

Private sector firms shouldn't be in the business of doing government's or the central banks bidding to achieve full employment. I think that guarantees corruption and continued wealth inequality. That's part of why I push back against any massive works program, massive ramping up of infrastructure spending, massive anything MMTers are calling for, unless fully fleshed out and steered primarily by the value of actual work needing to be done. Fixating on macroeconomic outcomes does squat to be translatable into actual on-the-ground policy. Essentially I feel the MMTers are too up in the clouds and their proposals aren't very well fleshed out in real world terms.

I don't know, but I also don't think that using the return on energy alone is the way to go. Factor in pollution, self-sustainability, and politics, and I don't see how anyone could make a plausible case for gas, oil, and coal far into the future. Once you set up a solar farm or a wind farm, you are pretty much finished. No pollution to deal with, no tankers to protect, no oil-rich countries to deal with...

Plus, you are talking about energies in their relative infancy, compared to well-established (and very profitable) oil and gas industries that have had a long time to become efficient. Would we even be having this energy debate if wind and/or solar power had been developed a hundred years ago? We'd all be driving solar cars by now.

Not quite. There are actual limitations to the amount of energy that can be stored for long-range travel, freight, agricultural and industrial and countless other things. Moving our bodies from point A to a nearby point B, and lighting and heating our little living spaces are part of the equation, but our entire civilization goes way beyond that in terms of its actual energy needs. The energy density of hydrocarbons is miraculous relative to solar. Hydrocarbons essentially are solar energy, just the kind that was accumulated, buried, pressurized and heated over the course of several hundred million years. Intentionally not using the available, extremely energy-dense oil/gas/coal in favor of solar would be like a starving person walking into a all-you-can-eat burger joint and holding himself back to just eating a plate of celery.
 
I understand what you're saying, but I rail pretty hard against pretentious employment of the people whose labor neither the public nor private sector actually want to buy under any normal circumstances. To me there would be an inescapable Arbeit Macht Frei flavor to a workfare-based welfare state, in which the entitlements to the day's ration require the performance of meaningless labor. And honestly, the people I find often most forcefully supportive of workfare are freedom-loving conservatives who need to step back and think about what they're advocating.



I guess I just disagree first and foremost with how it's packaged/labeled.



Not going to argue against anything you said there at this point.



Private sector firms shouldn't be in the business of doing government's or the central banks bidding to achieve full employment. I think that guarantees corruption and continued wealth inequality. That's part of why I push back against any massive works program, massive ramping up of infrastructure spending, massive anything MMTers are calling for, unless fully fleshed out and steered primarily by the value of actual work needing to be done. Fixating on macroeconomic outcomes does squat to be translatable into actual on-the-ground policy. Essentially I feel the MMTers are too up in the clouds and their proposals aren't very well fleshed out in real world terms.

You are still looking for everybody to produce something in order for them to share in the economy's output. But if all of our demands can be met with, say, just 60% of our labor force, what do the other 40% do? That system of distributing money ONLY works when there is a reasonable demand for labor, and we are headed inexorably in the opposite direction due to progress.


Not quite. There are actual limitations to the amount of energy that can be stored for long-range travel, freight, agricultural and industrial and countless other things. Moving our bodies from point A to a nearby point B, and lighting and heating our little living spaces are part of the equation, but our entire civilization goes way beyond that in terms of its actual energy needs. The energy density of hydrocarbons is miraculous relative to solar. Hydrocarbons essentially are solar energy, just the kind that was accumulated, buried, pressurized and heated over the course of several hundred million years. Intentionally not using the available, extremely energy-dense oil/gas/coal in favor of solar would be like a starving person walking into a all-you-can-eat burger joint and holding himself back to just eating a plate of celery.

But hydrocarbons are not renewable. You burn them, and they are gone, and their byproducts are polluting the air, polluting the water, and contributing to global warming. Plus, as I said before, we have been perfecting that technology for over 100 years. Wind, solar, and battery tech are still in their infancy. We will eventually be able to drive electric cars further. Save the hydrocarbons for planes, sure, but it makes zero sense to stick with hydrocarbons just because they work better today.
 
I understand what you're saying, but I rail pretty hard against pretentious employment of the people whose labor neither the public nor private sector actually want to buy under any normal circumstances. To me there would be an inescapable Arbeit Macht Frei flavor to a workfare-based welfare state, in which the entitlements to the day's ration require the performance of meaningless labor. And honestly, the people I find often most forcefully supportive of workfare are freedom-loving conservatives who need to step back and think about what they're advocating.

I think it is important to note that much work done today is of marginal or even no real value to society, its prime function is to simply keep money in circulation. And the further workers are stretched in finding employment, the more marginal things could well get.

I'd say what people really want is quite subjective. Do we really need yet another McDonald's, or used clothing store, or kiosk selling iPad covers? There has been a strong shift towards the service sector in recent years, and a lot of employment is now at places like McDonald's or WalMart. If people had a choice, they may decide they do not want a society of shoddy goods and fast food, but something else. Some though may well assume, given the political sentiment afoot, that because that is the way things are, they must be more or less perfect from an economic point of view, because some "market" mechanism has led this way.

In a way some of your fears have already been realized, because much of the well paid, middle class, career type work of the past has been replaced by McJobs, and workers do indeed seek their (meager) daily ration through marginal and nearly meaningless labour.
 
I think it is important to note that much work done today is of marginal or even no real value to society, its prime function is to simply keep money in circulation. And the further workers are stretched in finding employment, the more marginal things could well get.

I'd say what people really want is quite subjective. Do we really need yet another McDonald's, or used clothing store, or kiosk selling iPad covers? There has been a strong shift towards the service sector in recent years, and a lot of employment is now at places like McDonald's or WalMart. If people had a choice, they may decide they do not want a society of shoddy goods and fast food, but something else. Some though may well assume, given the political sentiment afoot, that because that is the way things are, they must be more or less perfect from an economic point of view, because some "market" mechanism has led this way.

In a way some of your fears have already been realized, because much of the well paid, middle class, career type work of the past has been replaced by McJobs, and workers do indeed seek their (meager) daily ration through marginal and nearly meaningless labour.

I'm not sure what your point is or how it relates to the comment you quoted. You're also broadbrushing American labor in general according to a couple of popularly referenced (ad nauseam) corporations. Those private sector firms have succeeded because people do buy their stuff, and aren't forced to do so. Whatever it is in people's heads that has them buying so religiously from these corporate behemoths, it's probably complex. But that's not really my point. It seems like I need to restate my point another way.

Even though no country has successfully implemented a basic income guarantee nor a real "jobs guarantee" program as far as I know, let's just pretend we here in this thread agree that MMT has solid recommendations and we need to do one or the other, to get money into the pockets of those whose labor the current public and private sectors both don't want, should we attach work conditions to the money that is placed in those pockets?

I say absolutely not. If no one in the economy wants their labor or needs their labor, why force them to labor? If we're quickly progressing toward a post-labor/post-capitalist economy, why try to keep up pretenses that people are "earning" their keep, to satisfy those with tribal urges to force the idle to labor? We're not living in a communist tribe, our survival isn't improved by forcing these idle people to labor, so I say if we are moving toward keeping money in consumers' pockets, and we neither need nor want any actual production out of them, why force them to feign productivity? "I'm going to force you to do these things so that we both can pretend you "earned" what I insist on giving you anyway." It sounds demented and pathological.
 
I'm not sure what your point is or how it relates to the comment you quoted. You're also broadbrushing American labor in general according to a couple of popularly referenced (ad nauseam) corporations. Those private sector firms have succeeded because people do buy their stuff, and aren't forced to do so. Whatever it is in people's heads that has them buying so religiously from these corporate behemoths, it's probably complex. But that's not really my point. It seems like I need to restate my point another way.

Even though no country has successfully implemented a basic income guarantee nor a real "jobs guarantee" program as far as I know, let's just pretend we here in this thread agree that MMT has solid recommendations and we need to do one or the other, to get money into the pockets of those whose labor the current public and private sectors both don't want, should we attach work conditions to the money that is placed in those pockets?

I say absolutely not. If no one in the economy wants their labor or needs their labor, why force them to labor? If we're quickly progressing toward a post-labor/post-capitalist economy, why try to keep up pretenses that people are "earning" their keep, to satisfy those with tribal urges to force the idle to labor? We're not living in a communist tribe, our survival isn't improved by forcing these idle people to labor, so I say if we are moving toward keeping money in consumers' pockets, and we neither need nor want any actual production out of them, why force them to feign productivity? "I'm going to force you to do these things so that we both can pretend you "earned" what I insist on giving you anyway." It sounds demented and pathological.

Well, for one, there would have to be a large enough difference between a BIG and minimum wage so people would bother working that minimum wage job. So either we raise the minimum wage up relatively high, or the BIG probably won't be enough to live on, which it has to be. On the other hand, you can set the guaranteed job at the minimum wage.

There is also the benefit of having an available labor force that is accustomed to getting up and going to work. And there has got to be some benefit to seeing oneself as a productive member of society, rather than part of the minority that cannot find work.
 
I'm not sure what your point is or how it relates to the comment you quoted. You're also broadbrushing American labor in general according to a couple of popularly referenced (ad nauseam) corporations. Those private sector firms have succeeded because people do buy their stuff, and aren't forced to do so. Whatever it is in people's heads that has them buying so religiously from these corporate behemoths, it's probably complex. But that's not really my point. It seems like I need to restate my point another way.

I mentioned those two outfits because they are representative of current economic trends. They are the two largest employers in the US, and are a reflection of the trend towards lower skilled service industry jobs, within those corporations and others. It's a little sobering that the average worker may have been thought of as an auto factory or steel mill employee a few years back, and now the reality is that he or she would be a (low paid) fast food or department store worker.

I'd also say that it is not completely accurate to say that these firms succeed solely because there is a demand for their services. I'm not discounting market principles altogether, but I think the reality is more complex. These things can just become part of the culture, and then are not questioned by many, although they may not be the optimum alternative. Fast food is largely unhealthy, but for those with limited education and funds, this may not be apparent, and even if it is, such may be the only alternative in certain areas. WalMart is particularly assertive in driving out competition by various means, and when they do smaller communities often find there is now only one choice, not many. These industries can perpetuate a cycle- workers receive very low pay, and so now buy junk products and junk food, as that is all they can afford, which makes companies selling these items viable.


Even though no country has successfully implemented a basic income guarantee nor a real "jobs guarantee" program as far as I know, let's just pretend we here in this thread agree that MMT has solid recommendations and we need to do one or the other, to get money into the pockets of those whose labor the current public and private sectors both don't want, should we attach work conditions to the money that is placed in those pockets?

I say absolutely not. If no one in the economy wants their labor or needs their labor, why force them to labor? If we're quickly progressing toward a post-labor/post-capitalist economy, why try to keep up pretenses that people are "earning" their keep, to satisfy those with tribal urges to force the idle to labor? We're not living in a communist tribe, our survival isn't improved by forcing these idle people to labor, so I say if we are moving toward keeping money in consumers' pockets, and we neither need nor want any actual production out of them, why force them to feign productivity? "I'm going to force you to do these things so that we both can pretend you "earned" what I insist on giving you anyway." It sounds demented and pathological.

These are good questions, and I'd say I pretty much agree with you here. There are potential problems with a job guarantee program, both from a moral and economic sense. It is senseless to insist people do meaningless work, and even if viable projects can be found, it could be a problem separating them from tasks that would otherwise have been performed by regular, higher paid workers, causing labour friction.

My guess is that if this issue is going to be addressed, the answers will be multiple rather than settling on just one program or another. A volunteer job core program could have its place, along with some sort of income guarantee. Some countries use unemployment insurance programs to a much larger degree, to cover various life events. That could go into the mix. The Dutch, some years back, experimented with tax incentives to get people to retire earlier, rather than later. Subsidized education would tend to see students staying in school until later.

There are a number of approaches, but probably all have their limitations. An income guarantee for example might be inflationary, particularly in the housing sector, which is more income dependent than competitive.
 
I mentioned those two outfits because they are representative of current economic trends. They are the two largest employers in the US, and are a reflection of the trend towards lower skilled service industry jobs, within those corporations and others. It's a little sobering that the average worker may have been thought of as an auto factory or steel mill employee a few years back, and now the reality is that he or she would be a (low paid) fast food or department store worker.

This sounds like it's based on a windshield survey driving on highways through suburban America. I too get sickened by the corporate retail and restaurant monotony littering every corner of our highway-connected national landscape, but that doesn't mean that that's the trend just because it's what we see through our windshields. For example, you suggest there's this big trend toward McDonalds and Walmart. Based on what? BLS data/projections show professional & educational services and health care growing the most as a percentage of jobs in the economy, both looking back 10 years and forward 10 years. Retail and hospitality grew less over the last 10 years as a % of jobs in the economy and are projected to be flat in that regard. So not much showing a trend toward McDonalds and Walmart jobs, as you say.

I'd also say that it is not completely accurate to say that these firms succeed solely because there is a demand for their services.

I don't think I said it's the sole reason, but people do buy their stuff, and the businesses wouldn't exist if they didn't.

These things can just become part of the culture, and then are not questioned by many, although they may not be the optimum alternative. Fast food is largely unhealthy, but for those with limited education and funds, this may not be apparent, and even if it is, such may be the only alternative in certain areas. WalMart is particularly assertive in driving out competition by various means, and when they do smaller communities often find there is now only one choice, not many. These industries can perpetuate a cycle- workers receive very low pay, and so now buy junk products and junk food, as that is all they can afford, which makes companies selling these items viable.

I agree, but ultimately unless you're talking about something radical, the people are going to have to avoid buying en masse from companies they don't actually want to succeed.

These are good questions, and I'd say I pretty much agree with you here. There are potential problems with a job guarantee program, both from a moral and economic sense. It is senseless to insist people do meaningless work, and even if viable projects can be found, it could be a problem separating them from tasks that would otherwise have been performed by regular, higher paid workers, causing labour friction.

My guess is that if this issue is going to be addressed, the answers will be multiple rather than settling on just one program or another. A volunteer job core program could have its place, along with some sort of income guarantee. Some countries use unemployment insurance programs to a much larger degree, to cover various life events. That could go into the mix. The Dutch, some years back, experimented with tax incentives to get people to retire earlier, rather than later. Subsidized education would tend to see students staying in school until later.

There are a number of approaches, but probably all have their limitations. An income guarantee for example might be inflationary, particularly in the housing sector, which is more income dependent than competitive.

Won't argue with you there, but I don't see how this attempt on your part to be balanced and pragmatic jives with MMT.
 
This sounds like it's based on a windshield survey driving on highways through suburban America. I too get sickened by the corporate retail and restaurant monotony littering every corner of our highway-connected national landscape, but that doesn't mean that that's the trend just because it's what we see through our windshields. For example, you suggest there's this big trend toward McDonalds and Walmart. Based on what? BLS data/projections show professional & educational services and health care growing the most as a percentage of jobs in the economy, both looking back 10 years and forward 10 years. Retail and hospitality grew less over the last 10 years as a % of jobs in the economy and are projected to be flat in that regard. So not much showing a trend toward McDonalds and Walmart jobs, as you say.

If those are the figures, I'm not surprised. As we become a more technical society, job increases and new categories will occur in the more technical and professional areas. So too with lower skilled service jobs. As automation increases, job numbers can be expected to decrease. What is more significant, in the context of what we are talking about, are overall numbers, not increases or decreases. If there were 2,000 technicians that could run an MRI machine previously, and now their are 3,000, that is a huge increase. The point is, not all that many, out of 320M people, are going to find a future career as an MRI technician.

For whatever reason, for better or worse, a very large mass of the population now works in relatively low skilled service sector jobs. Many of those would possibly like to write software for Bill Gates, or run the Smithsonian Institution. But unless there is a way to job share with a million or so people, they simply will not. Those that have the skill and determination to rise to the top half (or 30%, or whatever the exact figure) of the work force will, if lucky, do so. That leaves a great many for which, as you have suggested in the figures you have found, there is increasing less need for. It would be nice if everyone could be a chief, and not have any Indians, but I doubt this will come about. What is more likely is increased unemployment, and underemployment, downward pressure on wages and benefits, and a general drag on the economy, as large portions of the work force are effectively marginalized and demand is removed from the economy.

I don't think I said it's the sole reason, but people do buy their stuff, and the businesses wouldn't exist if they didn't.

I agree, but ultimately unless you're talking about something radical, the people are going to have to avoid buying en masse from companies they don't actually want to succeed.

Boycotts and such programs are rarely effective, because it is very difficult to organize millions of people from the ground up. And again we can't rest on the assumption that buying patterns produce the ideal society. Many people either don't have a real choice in what they buy, don't know they have a choice, or don't care; or are swayed by misleading advertising, peer pressure, societal expectations, or the demands and time constraints of working two or more jobs due to low wages; or make poor choices due to educational or psychological factors. Libertarians will ascribe near religious attributes to market functioning, but in reality it is the crudest of tools to consider when contemplating societal goals.


Won't argue with you there, but I don't see how this attempt on your part to be balanced and pragmatic jives with MMT.

I think it is completely in keeping. MMT puts a priority on as full employment as possible, and some sort of income support for those who are unemployed. I agree, and I think an outright income supplement could well be more beneficial in the long run than pushing ever more to the most marginal and trivial occupations.
 
I'm not sure what your point is or how it relates to the comment you quoted. You're also broadbrushing American labor in general according to a couple of popularly referenced (ad nauseam) corporations. Those private sector firms have succeeded because people do buy their stuff, and aren't forced to do so. Whatever it is in people's heads that has them buying so religiously from these corporate behemoths, it's probably complex. But that's not really my point. It seems like I need to restate my point another way.

Even though no country has successfully implemented a basic income guarantee nor a real "jobs guarantee" program as far as I know, let's just pretend we here in this thread agree that MMT has solid recommendations and we need to do one or the other, to get money into the pockets of those whose labor the current public and private sectors both don't want, should we attach work conditions to the money that is placed in those pockets?

I say absolutely not. If no one in the economy wants their labor or needs their labor, why force them to labor? If we're quickly progressing toward a post-labor/post-capitalist economy, why try to keep up pretenses that people are "earning" their keep, to satisfy those with tribal urges to force the idle to labor? We're not living in a communist tribe, our survival isn't improved by forcing these idle people to labor, so I say if we are moving toward keeping money in consumers' pockets, and we neither need nor want any actual production out of them, why force them to feign productivity? "I'm going to force you to do these things so that we both can pretend you "earned" what I insist on giving you anyway." It sounds demented and pathological.

If people absolutely can't work for a valid reason (disability for example) then we should be treating these people far better than we do now. If they are physically and mentally able to work but refuse to for one reason or another (such as laziness) then we should not force them too - BUT - they should be poor, the poorest of the poor. We shouldn't force anything on them. They should be able to choose - work or extreme poverty.
 
If people absolutely can't work for a valid reason (disability for example) then we should be treating these people far better than we do now. If they are physically and mentally able to work but refuse to for one reason or another (such as laziness) then we should not force them too - BUT - they should be poor, the poorest of the poor. We shouldn't force anything on them. They should be able to choose - work or extreme poverty.

I understand this sentiment, I really do. But it doesn't work or make sense in the real world. It isn't remotely practical or possible. And the reason it won't is because it presumes the difference between disabled and able to work is clear cut, black and white, yes or no, but the reality is it's the opposite.

We would need a governmental grand adjudicator to define, assess and enforce the difference between "truly unable to work" and "able to work depending on the job duties required." And to discern the difference between "actually unable to work in any capacity" versus "unable to find work needing to be done in capacities anyone actually needs" versus "able to do work but for some reason or another no one wants anything to do with them in a work setting" versus a million other possible explanations.

If you were to interview each of the nation's disabled and ask them why, if they're able to sit in front of a TV or computer at home, they're unable to sit behind a computer in an office. You would find millions of "disabled" people who could physically and mentally do any number of jobs, in theory, with nothing specifically identifiable that renders them 100% indisputably "unable to work." (You would also probably find them getting very angry that you or anyone would claim they're able to do certain types of work because they would perceive you to be a threat to their revenue stream).

There are infinite reasons why no public or private employer might want to buy a certain person's labor, ranging from their real actual abilities or lack thereof, to subjective reasons that make being in a work environment with them undesirable and counterproductive, and some of those reasons might seem entirely within the person's control and ability to change, and others completely not, and everything between.

Imagine for thought-experiment purposes that in a more automated and computerized society that 60% of the nation's working aged adults are not employed or in the labor force, because no one needs or wants their labor, but only 5% of those people are truly, truly, truly disabled, i.e. by every standard of measurement cannot not perform the job duties of virtually any type of job because of severe physical and/or mental disabilities. If in your view the truly disabled should be very well taken care of whereas those deemed "able to work" are condemned to extreme poverty, then those other 55% not in the labor force, whose skills and abilities the job market does not want or need, they are going to be desperately pleading to be regarded as disabled for one reason or another, and your system is essentially teaching them to embody a helpless, victim mindset.
 
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If people absolutely can't work for a valid reason (disability for example) then we should be treating these people far better than we do now. If they are physically and mentally able to work but refuse to for one reason or another (such as laziness) then we should not force them too - BUT - they should be poor, the poorest of the poor. We shouldn't force anything on them. They should be able to choose - work or extreme poverty.

As usual MR you are referring to some mental image of a 1950's Norman Rockwell painting while trying to imagine how the economy actually works. At that time, all hands were needed at in the machine shop or factory floor. There was work for all, and the more the merrier. It was before automated factories, ATMs, the internet, and computers were considered basically science fiction.

The issue today has nothing to do with disability, and everything to do with the increasingly less needed worker. There is a reason outfits like WalMart are some of the biggest employers of the day, and it isn't because millions of workers are streaming in that direction to enjoy minimum wages and no benefits. It is because there is ever less available for low to modestly skilled workers, which also means competition for the few remaining technical positions that pay well is fierce.

And we have hardly seen anything yet. The next wave will encompass transportation, retail, sales, and even some professional functions. Your plan would produce a population half in dire poverty, and half doing extremely well, a recipe for conflict.
 
I understand this sentiment, I really do. But it doesn't work or make sense in the real world. It isn't remotely practical or possible. And the reason it won't is because it presumes the difference between disabled and able to work is clear cut, black and white, yes or no, but the reality is it's the opposite.

We would need a governmental grand adjudicator to define, assess and enforce the difference between "truly unable to work" and "able to work depending on the job duties required." And to discern the difference between "actually unable to work in any capacity" versus "unable to find work needing to be done in capacities anyone actually needs" versus "able to do work but for some reason or another no one wants anything to do with them in a work setting" versus a million other possible explanations.

If you were to interview each of the nation's disabled and ask them why, if they're able to sit in front of a TV or computer at home, they're unable to sit behind a computer in an office. You would find millions of "disabled" people who could physically and mentally do any number of jobs, in theory, with nothing specifically identifiable that renders them 100% indisputably "unable to work." (You would also probably find them getting very angry that you or anyone would claim they're able to do certain types of work because they would perceive you to be a threat to their revenue stream).

There are infinite reasons why no public or private employer might want to buy a certain person's labor, ranging from their real actual abilities or lack thereof, to subjective reasons that make being in a work environment with them undesirable and counterproductive, and some of those reasons might seem entirely within the person's control and ability to change, and others completely not, and everything between.

Imagine for thought-experiment purposes that in a more automated and computerized society that 60% of the nation's working aged adults are not employed or in the labor force, because no one needs or wants their labor, but only 5% of those people are truly, truly, truly disabled, i.e. by every standard of measurement cannot not perform the job duties of virtually any type of job because of severe physical and/or mental disabilities. If in your view the truly disabled should be very well taken care of whereas those deemed "able to work" are condemned to extreme poverty, then those other 55% not in the labor force, whose skills and abilities the job market does not want or need, they are going to be desperately pleading to be regarded as disabled for one reason or another, and your system is essentially teaching them to embody a helpless, victim mindset.

You make better arguments than the lefties on here do but I don't think the solution is to just throw in the towel and give up, which seems to be your solution. I've known many people who were able to work but now collect disability. I've had several work for me and they worked for me while going through the months long process of getting approved for disability. They would have kept on working for me if they hadn't gotten approved. If they can work, then they can work. Hell, I've had some health conditions myself that I could have tried getting disability for and I may have gotten it but I think more of myself than being in free poverty when I could earn much more working in pain. Earning more money is an incentive. My brother in law worked for a worker's comp insurance company rooting out fraud and there was a lot of it. I once trained in a manager trainee who came from a lawyer's office. He did investigative work, staking out worker's comp claimers and also caught many cheaters. My ex-wife had some back pain and her doctor offered on his own to give her a note to help her get disability but she turned it down because she could earn much more as a registered nurse than $1500 per month in disability. How many others did he just offer up disability for? There's nothing wrong with working in pain. If I can do it and my ex-wife could do it then a lot of people collecting disability can do it to.
 
As usual MR you are referring to some mental image of a 1950's Norman Rockwell painting while trying to imagine how the economy actually works. At that time, all hands were needed at in the machine shop or factory floor. There was work for all, and the more the merrier. It was before automated factories, ATMs, the internet, and computers were considered basically science fiction.

The issue today has nothing to do with disability, and everything to do with the increasingly less needed worker. There is a reason outfits like WalMart are some of the biggest employers of the day, and it isn't because millions of workers are streaming in that direction to enjoy minimum wages and no benefits. It is because there is ever less available for low to modestly skilled workers, which also means competition for the few remaining technical positions that pay well is fierce.

And we have hardly seen anything yet. The next wave will encompass transportation, retail, sales, and even some professional functions. Your plan would produce a population half in dire poverty, and half doing extremely well, a recipe for conflict.

I'll take you up on your explanation WHEN or IF we ever actually get to that point. Right now there are a lot of job openings all over the place and a lot of bums who do not want to work, even for wages higher than minimum wage. But, even minimum wage is better than nothing. What about those job guarantees that you MMT'rs want? Not even needed right now because we have jobs for these people already. They just don't want them. What good is a job guarantee when we already have unfilled jobs right now? We already have a job guarantee. All they have to do is apply. Many places will hire you if you have two legs, some will hire you even if you don't have two legs.
 
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I've known many people who were able to work but now collect disability. I've had several work for me and they worked for me while going through the months long process of getting approved for disability. They would have kept on working for me if they hadn't gotten approved. If they can work, then they can work. Hell, I've had some health conditions myself that I could have tried getting disability for and I may have gotten it but I think more of myself than being in free poverty when I could earn much more working in pain. Earning more money is an incentive. My brother in law worked for a worker's comp insurance company rooting out fraud and there was a lot of it. I once trained in a manager trainee who came from a lawyer's office. He did investigative work, staking out worker's comp claimers and also caught many cheaters. My ex-wife had some back pain and her doctor offered on his own to give her a note to help her get disability but she turned it down because she could earn much more as a registered nurse than $1500 per month in disability. How many others did he just offer up disability for? There's nothing wrong with working in pain. If I can do it and my ex-wife could do it then a lot of people collecting disability can do it to.

Right now there are a lot of job openings all over the place and a lot of bums who do not want to work, even for wages higher than minimum wage. But, even minimum wage is better than nothing. What about those job guarantees that you MMT'rs want? Not even needed right now because we have jobs for these people already. They just don't want them. What good is a job guarantee when we already have unfilled jobs right now? We already have a job guarantee. All they have to do is apply. Many places will hire you if you have two legs, some will hire you even if you don't have two legs.

1) Your anecdotes about people on disability aren't relevant to my comment, which was that if you interviewed everyone in the nation who's on disability and ask them why they couldn't (with reasonable accommodation) sit in front of a computer in an office the same way they sit in front of their computer at home, you'd get a lot of learned helplessness and excuses and fairly few very good answers. And they would get really agitated because they like their gravy train and don't want to be required to work. I'm not saying they should be required to work, it's only to show how drawing a line in the sand between "able to work" and "unable to work" as you did in your previous post is utterly arbitrary and futile. And so, therefore, is enforcing and investigating disability "fraud" whereby technically there are many jobs a "disabled" person could theoretically do.

2) "There are plenty of jobs out there" is usually based on a windshield survey of noticing that firms are regularly looking for work, but often the reason they're doing this is high turnover, not because the supply of jobs exceeds the supply of workers. And high turnover is not necessarily suggestive of upward mobility of their workers, many just turnover because the jobs suck and/or the workers themselves suck or both, and so jobs come open constantly and are filled constantly and the cycle churns forever.

3) Let's stay focused for a second on what you said previously, which was that we should increase benefits to the "truly disabled" while making sure those "not truly disabled" experience extreme poverty unless they work. We'll never even get to step one of being able to group people into those black and white categories. Unwilling vs. unable is inevitably extremely arbitrary, and to force a vast divide between the quality of life for those arbitrarily declared "unable" and those arbitrary declared "unwilling to do what's necessary" is not defensible, and worse, it will teach enormous numbers of people with below-average skills and abilities that the most likely way for them to get ahead is to convince society they can't. We should not create a society that incentivizes helplessness and "can't-do" attitudes, but that's exactly what's created if you think the "truly disabled" should get great treatment and the rest of the non-working should be condemned to abject poverty.
 
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