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Overt Monetary Financing

Now that I was able to read the article (with mmi's help), why do you believe that higher interest rates would solve our problems? To me, it just seems like more money for banks, more interest paid to banks by the government, and less overall economic activity.

The issue with the US economy today is not a demand problem. It's a supply problem. So pumping cash into an economy won't solve it as it's not a money issue. US is about to hit a new reality. I've gone over this SEVERAL times here. We have an aging population that is retiring and their jobs skills are not very easily filled. Jobs that are high paying jobs but skill sets Americans for the last 20 years have ignored. It's now coming home to roost.
 
My thought exactly. RW ideological dogma, seems to me. I figure our approach may be a little boring (no talk about five percent growth), but I think it's more viable. Of course, you may well see me as being overly cautious.

Actually.. mmi.. this isn't RW dogma here. The US has a supply issue. We lack skilled labor to fill certain jobs. If we can't fill those jobs, we can't grow. It's as simple as that. I am actually in favor of spending money to fix this issue. Rebuilding our educational system similar to Germany (it use to be that way with Vocational School). We killed Vocational Schools when we pushed for more kids going to college. I actually agree with Tim Keane on it. But I want vocational schooling in high school.
 
LOL! It is informal communication here

That's what I just said. In fact I said that I've said it here often. I'll wager a faulty space bar isn't what causes you to type "alot" … a lot.

>>CBO is rarely right.

Yeah, sure. That's why their work is so widely respected.

>>what if the issue is a Supply side problem?

Such as? Oh I see, we don't have an adequate supply of skilled workers. Well then we seem to be on the same page there. Let's invest in education to clear that up.
 
Load of nonsense.

And the source is the IMF? Are you serious?

The IMF are the most corrupt, most incompetent 'respected' organization on the planet.

Compared to them, the Fed look like insightful and highly moral economists - which of course they are DEFINITELY not.
 
The issue with the US economy today is not a demand problem. It's a supply problem. So pumping cash into an economy won't solve it as it's not a money issue. US is about to hit a new reality. I've gone over this SEVERAL times here. We have an aging population that is retiring and their jobs skills are not very easily filled. Jobs that are high paying jobs but skill sets Americans for the last 20 years have ignored. It's now coming home to roost.

A more apt term would be "labor mismatch".

The US has way too many people qualified for many entry level jobs, and far too few people qualified for highly experienced jobs.

But to say there's no demand problem in our economy is not a statement you can just throw out there without expecting to receive some very amused looks from economists.
 
For those of you who worry about our national debt, hyperinflation, etc. - here is something that should ease your minds:

OMF is when the govt. simply issues dollars without debt.



The Case for Monetary Finance – An Essentially Political Issue

It's a long PDF, but we have already talked about much of what is in there.

Scroll down to the bottom for charts and figures, starting on page 37.

Some more background reading:

Overt Monetary Financing – again (directly discusses the paper)

Good idea, or not?

Hilarious. I've got to give you credit though when you have run out of explanations for the MMT nonsense you came up with something somewhat different. Still, it is liberal fantasy. When on Earth are you ever going to realize that there is no such thing as a free lunch? Even the "free" lunches that kids get at school are paid for, so they are not free. But, you keep on trying anyway. How hypocritical of you to declare that you do not take reading assignments and then turn around and offer one up in your own thread in yet another attempt to prove that there are free lunches after all, while covering up the fact that there is indeed a cost for them. Nothing is free, no matter how much you want to spin the truth.
 
Hilarious. I've got to give you credit though when you have run out of explanations for the MMT nonsense you came up with something somewhat different. Still, it is liberal fantasy. When on Earth are you ever going to realize that there is no such thing as a free lunch? Even the "free" lunches that kids get at school are paid for, so they are not free. But, you keep on trying anyway. How hypocritical of you to declare that you do not take reading assignments and then turn around and offer one up in your own thread in yet another attempt to prove that there are free lunches after all, while covering up the fact that there is indeed a cost for them. Nothing is free, no matter how much you want to spin the truth.

If you are totally incapable of making an economic argument, just stay out of the thread. No need to advertise your ignorance any further. We get it.
 
If you are totally incapable of making an economic argument, just stay out of the thread. No need to advertise your ignorance any further. We get it.

Didn't realize that you had become a moderator. This thread does nothing but advertise your total ignorance. Typical response that when you can't defend something you call people names. You refuse to accept my reading assignments and admit that you didn't even read them and then turn around and offer up your own reading assignments. There are consequences to bad economic policy that tries to cover up excessive spending by trying to spin that you actually can spend all you want with no consequences. Now with MMT you claim that you never said that there weren't any limits or that there weren't any consequences (even though you actually said it numerous times) so I am curious as to your take on this thread. Are there any consequences or not?
 
Didn't realize that you had become a moderator. This thread does nothing but advertise your total ignorance. Typical response that when you can't defend something you call people names. You refuse to accept my reading assignments and admit that you didn't even read them and then turn around and offer up your own reading assignments. There are consequences to bad economic policy that tries to cover up excessive spending by trying to spin that you actually can spend all you want with no consequences. Now with MMT you claim that you never said that there weren't any limits or that there weren't any consequences (even though you actually said it numerous times) so I am curious as to your take on this thread. Are there any consequences or not?

When you come up with something worth responding to, you'll get a serious answer. If you don't want to get insulted, then keep your ignorant posts to yourself, until you learn the subject - at which point, they won't be ignorant posts. See how this works?
 
When you come up with something worth responding to, you'll get a serious answer. If you don't want to get insulted, then keep your ignorant posts to yourself, until you learn the subject - at which point, they won't be ignorant posts. See how this works?

It works by you intimidating others when you have completely failed to prove your argument. You can't intimidate me. So far you have failed to post anything serious so that is the type of response you get from me. If you ever come up with a serious argument for anything that isn't steeped in the left wing fantasyland of being able to spend all you want without any consequences then maybe we actually can have a serious discussion. You completely avoided my question of whether you believe there are any consequences to your OP so I'll take that as your answer - that there are zero consequences to spending all the money you want. You continue to spew this garbage nonstop. You just wrap it in different wrapping papers.
 
It works by you intimidating others when you have completely failed to prove your argument. You can't intimidate me. So far you have failed to post anything serious so that is the type of response you get from me. If you ever come up with a serious argument for anything that isn't steeped in the left wing fantasyland of being able to spend all you want without any consequences then maybe we actually can have a serious discussion. You completely avoided my question of whether you believe there are any consequences to your OP so I'll take that as your answer - that there are zero consequences to spending all the money you want. You continue to spew this garbage nonstop. You just wrap it in different wrapping papers.

I'm not trying to intimidate you. These are all legitimate complaints that I have. You DON'T understand the subject. You DIDN'T understand your own links. You AREN'T, therefore, qualified to spout off on the subject. Yet nobody posts more than you, especially when the subject is or touches on MMT. You seem to have a bit of a bug up your butt about MMT, and since you can't formulate an economic argument against it, I have to assume that your problem is with me, personally.

Look, I don't like insulting people, but you leave me no choice. You don't post anything I can respond to any other way, because your arguments stink. They are 99% partisan, 1% poor understanding of economics. Either I insult you or I ignore you, and you didn't let me ignore you, so you got what you asked for.
 
You are never forced to insult people. You can just not reply to them.

Tried that, too. He keeps on poking and insulting until I respond.

You will lose your patience soon enough. Everybody does.
 
I'm not trying to intimidate you. These are all legitimate complaints that I have. You DON'T understand the subject. You DIDN'T understand your own links. You AREN'T, therefore, qualified to spout off on the subject. Yet nobody posts more than you, especially when the subject is or touches on MMT. You seem to have a bit of a bug up your butt about MMT, and since you can't formulate an economic argument against it, I have to assume that your problem is with me, personally.

Look, I don't like insulting people, but you leave me no choice. You don't post anything I can respond to any other way, because your arguments stink. They are 99% partisan, 1% poor understanding of economics. Either I insult you or I ignore you, and you didn't let me ignore you, so you got what you asked for.

You constantly call people names and insult their intelligience in a very arrogant way, especially when you have no argument, not just with me but with everyone when you have no argument. You wouldn't have to call people names if you actually put forth a serious non partisan argument instead of biased liberal fantasies. Every time someone disagrees with you, you say they do not understand the subject. You can't see the forest through the trees that it is YOU who does not understand the subject. I've presented many links from many expert economists who do this for a living (some of them liberals) who clearly state that MMT is flawed. It is you who is not qualified to spout off on the subject because you have zero qualifications. Zero! Many experts of whom I linked to and people here, including me, and even some of your fellow liberals, have already formulated arguments to you regarding MMT being flawed and you accept none of it from anyone. It is Your arguments that are partisan and when you have no arguments all you have left is to hurl insults. This is just yet another MMT thread in disquise. See, I understand more than you think.
 
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Just curious, do you think you have been putting forth serious non-partisan arguments in this thread?

Nope but neither has John. All he has done is repackage his same old MMT crap. He had to repackage it because even you and Kush were showing him just how ridiculous MMT was. This thread is evidence that he couldn't refute your arguments regarding MMT so he was forced to retool it and try again. You just recently joined so you missed other threads where I got into it more with him. It's stupid to just rehash the same old arguments over and over when John refuses to listen to anyone's arguments, including both yours and Kush's. Even John got tired of saying the same old crap over and over again and posted that he wasn't going to do it anymore, hence this retooled thread offering the same old BS yet once again, just disguised differently.
 
,
A more apt term would be "labor mismatch".
The US has way too many people qualified for many entry level jobs, and far too few people qualified for highly experienced jobs.

You can't exactly call it a labor mismatch. Society and even Economist (and Government leaders) have ignored a truth or two over the last 30 years. We know some of them as there is only certain things in life, Death and Taxes.. and there is a 3rd one, retirement, that is forgotten.

We are in another retirement cycle (with huge generation now, baby boomers). Generation X and Generation Y (millennials born after 2000) skills are set. We have a 5 to 10 year gap of supply of labor force that can replace those Baby boomers as the oldest Millennial born after 2000 is just 16 years old and at age 18 they aren't gonna have the skills to replace a Baby boomer worker. So it's clearly a labor supply issue when you look at demographics.


But to say there's no demand problem in our economy is not a statement you can just throw out there without expecting to receive some very amused looks from economists.

And those economist are 100% wrong, just like they were wrong in 2007. US doesn't have a demand problem because of lack of liquidity.

US is stuck in “secular stagnation" which is caused by factors such as ageing populations, lack of population growth, and transitioning economy. Fed can't fix that with more money and it's probably gonna go on for a while. We are seeing Alvin Hansen's Secular Stagnation Hypothesis right in front of our eyes. Japan has been going through it for decades now.
 
,

You can't exactly call it a labor mismatch. Society and even Economist (and Government leaders) have ignored a truth or two over the last 30 years. We know some of them as there is only certain things in life, Death and Taxes.. and there is a 3rd one, retirement, that is forgotten.

We are in another retirement cycle (with huge generation now, baby boomers). Generation X and Generation Y (millennials born after 2000) skills are set. We have a 5 to 10 year gap of supply of labor force that can replace those Baby boomers as the oldest Millennial born after 2000 is just 16 years old and at age 18 they aren't gonna have the skills to replace a Baby boomer worker. So it's clearly a labor supply issue when you look at demographics.

This whole thing about baby boomers retiring - while true - is irrelevant to your point about there being an undersupply of labor, because it is not related to our economic problems since 2009. In 2009 our population over 65 was not significantly higher than it was for the prior decade. And our population over 65 has been leaving the workforce at an unprecedentedly low rate.


And those economist are 100% wrong, just like they were wrong in 2007. US doesn't have a demand problem because of lack of liquidity.
What were "those" economists 100% wrong about in 2007?

US is stuck in “secular stagnation" which is caused by factors such as ageing populations, lack of population growth, and transitioning economy. Fed can't fix that with more money and it's probably gonna go on for a while. We are seeing Alvin Hansen's Secular Stagnation Hypothesis right in front of our eyes. Japan has been going through it for decades now.

Lack of population growth? Are you kidding me? The US population has grown by 14 million since 2016.

I agree that the aging population is a factor, but not because they aren't supplying labor - it's because older people consume less than younger people - which is why the aging population is a demand issue.

The transitioning economy, again, points to an oversupply of labor - we have too many people who are looking for work in entry level fields, but too few looking for highly experienced positions. As automation becomes increasingly prevalent, the supply of entry level jobs becomes increasingly small.
 
This whole thing about baby boomers retiring - while true - is irrelevant to your point about there being an undersupply of labor, because it is not related to our economic problems since 2009. In 2009 our population over 65 was not significantly higher than it was for the prior decade. And our population over 65 has been leaving the workforce at an unprecedentedly low rate.

Our undersupply of labor is the very reason why we have had lack of economic growth since 2009. Economic researchers have been talking about this as early as 2002-2004. Flat out saying growth will slow.

What were "those" economists 100% wrong about in 2007?

Every mainstream economist out there was pushing there was no threat of recession. Even MMT people got it wrong and got other things wrong as well. MMT's cult leader (I know, that's mean) Warren Mosler almost lost his shirt over Russia currency crisis in the mid 1990s with him betting they would never default.



Lack of population growth? Are you kidding me? The US population has grown by 14 million since 2016.

US has growing by 14m in the 9 months of 2016 so far? What are you smoking? US population growth rate is at .77% per year. That's roughly 2.5m population growth per year.

I agree that the aging population is a factor, but not because they aren't supplying labor - it's because older people consume less than younger people - which is why the aging population is a demand issue.

Not a demand issue, you can't increase demand without supply. So we've never had a problem with demand when the next generation went on to retire because we also had an ample supply of labor to fill the role of worker and consumer. We just don't have supply of consumers over the age of 18. We have another 2-4 years (depending on how future 18 year olds spend). This is just a fact. We hit our peak largest year in consumers when current 30/31 years old turned 18.


The transitioning economy, again, points to an oversupply of labor - we have too many people who are looking for work in entry level fields, but too few looking for highly experienced positions. As automation becomes increasingly prevalent, the supply of entry level jobs becomes increasingly small.

A transitioning economy has very little to do with oversupply. We create millions of entry level jobs ever year. You can't create consumers, those are based on birth rates. US has a declining birth rate. 59 per birth per 1,000 women. Our issue is supply. We are talking about missing 1% or more growth because of our population issue.
 
Our undersupply of labor is the very reason why we have had lack of economic growth since 2009. Economic researchers have been talking about this as early as 2002-2004. Flat out saying growth will slow.
Your link is to a paper written in 2008, but setting that aside... your paper says this:

"The future growth of the U.S. economy depends on the contribution of labor input, that is,
the growth rate of labor input multiplied by the labor share of output.
However, future growth
also depends on the rate of growth of total factor productivity and the contribution of capital
input. In the neo-classical theory of growth embodied in IGEM, the contribution of capital input,
the growth rate of capital input multiplied by the capital share, is endogenous. To a reasonable
approximation growth rates of output and capital input must converge in the long run. The only
component of the sources of growth not yet accounted for is productivity growth
."


The take-aways from this paper:
- the paper assumes neo-classical economic theory (aka supply-side economics)
- the paper assumes strong annual productivity growth (3% annually)
- the paper assumes that people continue to retire at similar ages as they did in the past.
- the paper anticipates 1.6% annual growth

Even though they arrived at the (so far) accurate prediction of GDP growth, they arrived at it using faulty assumptions. Specifically, they assumed that productivity would continue to rise (it's declining). If they arrived at the right conclusion about GDP growth without anticipating the decline in productivity, another factor must be in play, pushing GDP growth up even as productivity declines.

Taken to its logical conclusion, using neo-classical theory, this should tell you that labor input has not declined at the anticipated rate (since this paper assumes GDP growth = labor input x labor share of output).

Every mainstream economist out there was pushing there was no threat of recession. Even MMT people got it wrong and got other things wrong as well. MMT's cult leader (I know, that's mean) Warren Mosler almost lost his shirt over Russia currency crisis in the mid 1990s with him betting they would never default.
I'll admit I was not following economics very closely in 2008, so I can't comment much on this.

Nonetheless, a past failure to forecast an event doesn't make all of their future and past analyses invalid.

US has growing by 14m in the 9 months of 2016 so far? What are you smoking? US population growth rate is at .77% per year. That's roughly 2.5m population growth per year.

Mistype, my bad. I meant 2010.

Not a demand issue, you can't increase demand without supply. So we've never had a problem with demand when the next generation went on to retire because we also had an ample supply of labor to fill the role of worker and consumer. We just don't have supply of consumers over the age of 18. We have another 2-4 years (depending on how future 18 year olds spend). This is just a fact. We hit our peak largest year in consumers when current 30/31 years old turned 18.
We have plenty of supply. When a business needs a highly-experienced worker to fill a role, and no Americans are applying, businesses just secure an H1B visa and hire somebody from another country. And as I previously stated (and you have not refuted), we have a labor supply glut for many entry level jobs.

A transitioning economy has very little to do with oversupply. We create millions of entry level jobs ever year. You can't create consumers, those are based on birth rates. US has a declining birth rate. 59 per birth per 1,000 women. Our issue is supply. We are talking about missing 1% or more growth because of our population issue.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, birth rate is declining, but nobody being born today is entering the labor force. The labor force only extends back to the year 2000 (birth rates were higher then).

A transitioning economy has meant increased automation, which means less labor demand for jobs that are being replaced by automation. Thus, we have a growing supply of entry levels relative to demand (not because supply is increasing significantly, but because automation is eliminating demand).
 
Your link is to a paper written in 2008, but setting that aside... your paper says this:

The take-aways from this paper:
- the paper assumes neo-classical economic theory (aka supply-side economics)
- the paper assumes strong annual productivity growth (3% annually)
- the paper assumes that people continue to retire at similar ages as they did in the past.
- the paper anticipates 1.6% annual growth

Even though they arrived at the (so far) accurate prediction of GDP growth, they arrived at it using faulty assumptions. Specifically, they assumed that productivity would continue to rise (it's declining). If they arrived at the right conclusion about GDP growth without anticipating the decline in productivity, another factor must be in play, pushing GDP growth up even as productivity declines.

1) Neo-classical economic theory is part of all economic theory. There is no way around that. Majority of economist follow what is Neoclassical synthesis (which is Neo-Classical and Keynesian together) in some form. Even Abba P. Lerner followed Neoclassical synthesis. Abba P. Lerner is the roots of MMT.

2) It doesn't assume 3%, 3% is not a strong number, it's actually the average growth rate in the US from 1960-2004. So they are using historical growth rates.

3) They are actually.

4) It anticipates that growth rate if nothing is done (be it education, increase productivity, or government intervention).

US productivity is actually higher then 2008. So it has grown. As of right now it's declining because the US is in recession (not that anybody will tell you that). US GDP is increase because of Government spending increase which has offset some of the declines and there is no doubt about that. But question is, is that Government spending going to increase overall (private) GDP number? Absolutely not as it's not spending in those areas which boost private investment and spending.


I'll admit I was not following economics very closely in 2008, so I can't comment much on this.

Nonetheless, a past failure to forecast an event doesn't make all of their future and past analyses invalid.

Well, when past failures are based on models to make forecasts and those same models are used. Future analysis is suspect. George Box once said. "all models are wrong"... meaning models have issues. Ever wonder why models are typically wrong? This is one of the reason I don't rely heavily on models. It just takes a tenth of % to throw off a model.


We have plenty of supply. When a business needs a highly-experienced worker to fill a role, and no Americans are applying, businesses just secure an H1B visa and hire somebody from another country. And as I previously stated (and you have not refuted), we have a labor supply glut for many entry level jobs.

We don't have plenty of supply because H1B visas are limited. The current limit is 65,000 (which doesn't count 20,000 for University studies or work). Why I am gonna refute the excess supply of no skill labor we have? The issue here is some sort of skilled labor. Filling a minimum wage job is nothing. It's filling those jobs just above minimum wage and higher. Be it Nurses, Firefighers, Police, Teachers, Secretary jobs which do require some skill (or schooling) with on the job training. You know the jobs that pay about 200% more then minimum wage plus benefits.

Yes, birth rate is declining, but nobody being born today is entering the labor force. The labor force only extends back to the year 2000 (birth rates were higher then).

US birth rates.


A transitioning economy has meant increased automation, which means less labor demand for jobs that are being replaced by automation. Thus, we have a growing supply of entry levels relative to demand (not because supply is increasing significantly, but because automation is eliminating demand).

A transition economy means education standards are changing (at the nuts and bolts of it). While the labor (blue collar) has declined, white collar demand has increased. Jobs are created, it's the skills of our HS students don't apply anymore. Yet we've been transitioning since I was HS as I graduated during the Dot.com birth. Certain jobs will never go away.. I listed some of them earlier in the post. We have a major lack of supply in these jobs and white collar skills. The demand for these jobs exists already. It's filling them in which we have a problem.. making it a supply issue.
 
1) Neo-classical economic theory is part of all economic theory. There is no way around that. Majority of economist follow what is Neoclassical synthesis (which is Neo-Classical and Keynesian together) in some form. Even Abba P. Lerner followed Neoclassical synthesis. Abba P. Lerner is the roots of MMT.
No argument from me. I might point out that a theory isn't necessarily accurate simply because a majority of people subscribe to it though.

2) It doesn't assume 3%, 3% is not a strong number, it's actually the average growth rate in the US from 1960-2004. So they are using historical growth rates.
Somehow you managed to contradict yourself in consecutive sentences. 3% IS strong, relative to the current productivity growth rate, which is -0.2%.


Your link doesn't show that. It actually reaffirms what I stated:
Gallup said:
other Gallup data suggest that from a broader perspective, Americans have been retiring at an older age than they did years or generations ago.

austrianecon said:
4) It anticipates that growth rate if nothing is done (be it education, increase productivity, or government intervention).
More specifically, it anticipates growth rate based upon models they constructed.

US productivity is actually higher then 2008. So it has grown. As of right now it's declining because the US is in recession (not that anybody will tell you that). US GDP is increase because of Government spending increase which has offset some of the declines and there is no doubt about that. But question is, is that Government spending going to increase overall (private) GDP number? Absolutely not as it's not spending in those areas which boost private investment and spending.
It's higher than it was in 2008, but productivity GROWTH is way, way down relative to the last 30 years.

Well, when past failures are based on models to make forecasts and those same models are used. Future analysis is suspect. George Box once said. "all models are wrong"... meaning models have issues. Ever wonder why models are typically wrong? This is one of the reason I don't rely heavily on models. It just takes a tenth of % to throw off a model.
I agree that no existing models are perfect. That doesn't make every projection made wrong though.


We don't have plenty of supply because H1B visas are limited. The current limit is 65,000 (which doesn't count 20,000 for University studies or work). Why I am gonna refute the excess supply of no skill labor we have? The issue here is some sort of skilled labor. Filling a minimum wage job is nothing. It's filling those jobs just above minimum wage and higher. Be it Nurses, Firefighers, Police, Teachers, Secretary jobs which do require some skill (or schooling) with on the job training. You know the jobs that pay about 200% more then minimum wage plus benefits.
Are you saying there aren't enough people applying for jobs as teachers/police/nurses? I agree. But that's my point - there's a labor mismatch problem.

Your point being?

The link says "The U.S. Fertility Rate Has Fallen During Periods of Economic Decline". That's my point - the people who were born since the Great Recession began are no older than 8 years old today. They're not participating in the labor force, so the effects of declining birth rates are not being felt in the economy yet - nor will they for another 10 years.


A transition economy means education standards are changing (at the nuts and bolts of it). While the labor (blue collar) has declined, white collar demand has increased. Jobs are created, it's the skills of our HS students don't apply anymore. Yet we've been transitioning since I was HS as I graduated during the Dot.com birth. Certain jobs will never go away.. I listed some of them earlier in the post. We have a major lack of supply in these jobs and white collar skills. The demand for these jobs exists already. It's filling them in which we have a problem.. making it a supply issue.

No, that makes it a labor mismatch issue. Low-skill work has less demand than supply, while high-skill work has less supply than demand (as a general rule. This is not true for every job).
 
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The issue with the US economy today is not a demand problem. It's a supply problem. So pumping cash into an economy won't solve it as it's not a money issue. US is about to hit a new reality. I've gone over this SEVERAL times here. We have an aging population that is retiring and their jobs skills are not very easily filled. Jobs that are high paying jobs but skill sets Americans for the last 20 years have ignored. It's now coming home to roost.

Wait, wut?

We have shortage of nothing. A glut of housing, overcapacity of energy and more food than we know what to do with.

How do we have a supply problem?? (Other than the fact that there aren't enough people buying stuff?)
 
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