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Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got to...

Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:
Uh...huh, I can tell you have really thought this through, keep on changing your position, I'm sure someday you will find a consistent argument.

Yeah jack, I know that is what you believe, but the only reason you have created this fantasy accounting is to try to show that the lower costs in England are bad, unfair.....but yet when the comparison is US auto workers in the US initially the lower costs are a "good thing", then suddenly the accounting is "irrelevant".

Your argument remains specious.
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The two cases only seem different because the questions being asked are different. In health care, the question is why do US costs seem higher? The answer is because UK physicians (to use your example) subsidize the system via foregone income. In auto manufacturing, the question is why is it cheaper to manufacture autos in Alabama than in Michigan? The answer is because Alabama auto workers subsidize production via foregone income. Thank you for illustrating my point.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
Sorry, but that just strikes me as sophistry. If there were not lost income then physicians' compensation would not be controlled.
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Sophistry... LOL. :roll: Then you should have no problem actually addressing one or more of those points instead of hand waving them away! ;)

Besides, physicians incomes are "controlled" here in the good old U.S.A. Medicare, Medicaid, and the private insurers "control" how much they'll pay for everything from an office visit to open heart surgery. So why are wages for physicians here the "true" wages, and it's overseas where they're artificially low?
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

JasperL said:
Sophistry... LOL. :roll: Then you should have no problem actually addressing one or more of those points instead of hand waving them away! ;)

Besides, physicians incomes are "controlled" here in the good old U.S.A. Medicare, Medicaid, and the private insurers "control" how much they'll pay for everything from an office visit to open heart surgery. So why are wages for physicians here the "true" wages, and it's overseas where they're artificially low?
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I did not say any were true or artificial. I only pointed out depressed physician incomes as a way the comparative statistics are misleading. I'm making no normative case.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
The two cases only seem different because the questions being asked are different. In health care, the question is why do US costs seem higher? The answer is because UK physicians (to use your example) subsidize the system via foregone income. In auto manufacturing, the question is why is it cheaper to manufacture autos in Alabama than in Michigan? The answer is because Alabama auto workers subsidize production via foregone income. Thank you for illustrating my point.
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Um, Jack, you are back to "it is a good thing that wages are lower in AL". The same logic applies to wages in England, if you are going to have any sort of intellectual consistency.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
The two cases only seem different because the questions being asked are different. In health care, the question is why do US costs seem higher? The answer is because UK physicians (to use your example) subsidize the system via foregone income. In auto manufacturing, the question is why is it cheaper to manufacture autos in Alabama than in Michigan? The answer is because Alabama auto workers subsidize production via foregone income. Thank you for illustrating my point.
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Your problem is to know that the UK physicians are subsidizing medicine with "foregone income" you have to know the "true" or "market" salary so you can compare this 'true' salary to what is paid in the UK. And you have given us no information on how you determine that or why it's the U.S. pay scales that more accurately reflect the "true" market value of a, say, GP or radiologist or surgeon.

Someone bright enough to get through med school and training has lots of options. On what basis are you concluding that those who ELECT to become physicians in the UK, taking everything into account such as lifestyle, risk, quality of life, status, etc. are somehow chronically underpaid?
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:
Um, Jack, you are back to "it is a good thing that wages are lower in AL". The same logic applies to wages in England, if you are going to have any sort of intellectual consistency.
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It's certainly a good thing if you want cheaper cars. You seem to have missed the point that I have never said one health care system is preferable to another. My only point has been that the statistics don't capture all costs, making comparisons misleading. That is the case in health care.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
I did not say any were true or artificial. I only pointed out depressed physician incomes as a way the comparative statistics are misleading. I'm making no normative case.
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OK, their income is "depressed" relative to what benchmark?

Yes, they make less than U.S. docs, but how are you concluding that UK wages are "depressed" instead of U.S. wages "inflated" unless you know the 'true' wage that should be paid to a given doctor with a given set of skills?
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

JasperL said:
Your problem is to know that the UK physicians are subsidizing medicine with "foregone income" you have to know the "true" or "market" salary so you can compare this 'true' salary to what is paid in the UK. And you have given us no information on how you determine that or why it's the U.S. pay scales that more accurately reflect the "true" market value of a, say, GP or radiologist or surgeon.

Someone bright enough to get through med school and training has lots of options. On what basis are you concluding that those who ELECT to become physicians in the UK, taking everything into account such as lifestyle, risk, quality of life, status, etc. are somehow chronically underpaid?
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That's the point: I don't have to know a true or market salary. All I have to know is that the system caps income. That is all that's necessary to know that income would otherwise be higher.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
I did not say any were true or artificial. I only pointed out depressed physician incomes as a way the comparative statistics are misleading. I'm making no normative case.
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More regulated UK markets that are compared to less regulated US markets are "misleading"!

Kleenex-small-box.jpg
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

JasperL said:
OK, their income is "depressed" relative to what benchmark?

Yes, they make less than U.S. docs, but how are you concluding that UK wages are "depressed" instead of U.S. wages "inflated" unless you know the 'true' wage that should be paid to a given doctor with a given set of skills?
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I'm indifferent to which is "true." My only point is that a cost comparison between the two systems should capture the foregone income as a cost.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:
More regulated UK markets that are compared to less regulated US markets are "misleading"!

Kleenex-small-box.jpg
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Cost comparisons that don't account for costs are misleading.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
That's the point: I don't have to know a true or market salary. All I have to know is that the system caps income. That is all that's necessary to know that income would otherwise be higher.
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So if you don't know the "true income", how in the hell do you calculate the "income loss"?
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
Cost comparisons that don't account for costs are misleading.
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But you just showed you can't calculate your "loss".

You keep making less and less sense.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:
So if you don't know the "true income", how in the hell do you calculate the "income loss"?
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In the case of comparison with the US simple enough: compare average incomes in specific specialties. Family medicine to family medicine, neurosurgery to neurosurgery, etc.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:
But you just showed you can't calculate your "loss".

You keep making less and less sense.
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I'm calculating a cost comparison, not a loss.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
I'm calculating a cost comparison, not a loss.
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There you go Jack, when creating fantasy accounting, goal posts, definitions, etc, can be moved around at will.

It is all nonsense.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

digsbe said:
Healthcare spending, to my knowledge, has actually gone done. Costs have gone up when it comes to payments to insurance companies.

College has gotten exponentially expensive because the government throws out hefty loans students can take advantage of. When cost isn't a limiting factor they'll just charge more and reap the benefits of students going into debt (and the gov will reap from that too with the high interest rates).
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Not according to an article in Forbes from May of last year.

Forbes Welcome

Virtually nothing gets less expensive once the government gets involved.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Gimmesometruth said:
There you go Jack, when creating fantasy accounting, goal posts, definitions, etc, can be moved around at will.

It is all nonsense.
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Your failure to follow is not a problem I can solve. This concludes our discussion.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
Your failure to follow is not a problem I can solve. This concludes our discussion.
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It is an impossibility to follow a argument that constantly changes, that has no basis in reality, that is made out of whole cloth.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

DA60 said:
Not according to an article in Forbes from May of last year.

Forbes Welcome

Virtually nothing gets less expensive once the government gets involved.
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OK....so what govt action caused the Rx rise?

While the price to produce drugs could have some effect, the fact that the number of competitors has lessened due to mergers and acquisitions could be a larger contributor.

"Competition is the most important factor in driving prices down," said Peter Pitts, president of the Center for Medicine in the Public Interest,a New York-based healthcare non-profit organization. "The rise in the price in generics is an unfortunate play by insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies to increase profits at the expense of consumers. The continued contraction of the generic industry is not good for consumers, especially when it comes to certain drugs."

Prescription Drug Costs Rising Again Even Among Generic Medications - TheStreet
 
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Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
That's the point: I don't have to know a true or market salary. All I have to know is that the system caps income. That is all that's necessary to know that income would otherwise be higher.
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No it doesn't "cap" income, at least not any more than the U.S. system does. Again, private insurers and government payers in the U.S. dictate what they'll pay for office visits and surgery, etc. What's different about that than in Germany? And those physicians voluntarily choose to work for the income paid. There is no force applied to get Johann to become a physician.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

Jack Hays said:
I'm indifferent to which is "true." My only point is that a cost comparison between the two systems should capture the foregone income as a cost.
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You can't measure 'foregone' income until you define the benchmark.

I can assert that it's the U.S. that overpays physicians! I have the same evidence for that as you have that UK underpays theirs....
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

JasperL said:
No it doesn't "cap" income, at least not any more than the U.S. system does. Again, private insurers and government payers in the U.S. dictate what they'll pay for office visits and surgery, etc. What's different about that than in Germany? And those physicians voluntarily choose to work for the income paid. There is no force applied to get Johann to become a physician.
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Capping fees for specific services does not cap income; the physician is free to undertake other activities. My late mother's doctor was a "concierge" physician: no Medicare or insurance. In a single payer system the government is the sole employer, explicitly to cap incomes. Johann complies because Johann is a German.
 
Re: Why has college and health care gotten so expensive? Same reason everything got t

JasperL said:
You can't measure 'foregone' income until you define the benchmark.

I can assert that it's the U.S. that overpays physicians! I have the same evidence for that as you have that UK underpays theirs....
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You absolutely can. That's beside the point.
 
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