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Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:963:1176:1448]

Glen Contrarian

Glen Contrarian

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Take two people, one that is poor, only earning the minimum wage, and one that is rich.

The poor person may not be paying any federal or state income taxes...but he does pay a lot of other taxes - sales tax, utility taxes, gas taxes, et al - and these taxes take up a much greater proportion of a that poor person's income than they do of a rich person's income. Of course, one might argue that these are only 'use taxes'...but if you think about it, all taxes are 'use taxes'...and any rich person uses FAR more of America's taxpayer-funded infrastructure than any poor person.

Adam Smith, the "Father of Capitalism", recognized this when he said:

"The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state."

and

“The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”

But in today's political Right, the "Father of Capitalism" would be branded a bleeding-heart liberal socialist.

Be that as it may, conservatives are right about one thing - taxes ARE wealth redistribution. But when the rich pay the extra taxes, do those dollars go up in a puff of smoke? Of course not. When the poor get money - through whatever means, but preferably through work - they SPEND that money...and the money they spend helps to support their local businesses, which supports the local economy, which helps the national economy. HOWEVER, if a rich person decides to send their money to the Caymans or opens factories in China, those dollars are - as far as the American economy goes - WASTED.

That is why it is good for the nation - in morality and in effect - that the rich pay higher progressive taxes.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I think you want communism, most working Americans aren't interested in what you're selling
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Rocketman said:
I think you want communism, most working Americans aren't interested in what you're selling
Click to expand...

I think you meant to say, "most REPUBLICANS" aren't interested in what you're selling", because most AMERICANS support Democrats. Democratic House candidates received more than a million more votes than Republican House candidates did...but thanks to gerrymandering, the Republicans maintained their majority in the House.

In other words, there's more of US than there are of YOU. America's changing, guy, and you can't stop it. Get used to it.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Rocketman said:
I think you want communism, most working Americans aren't interested in what you're selling
Click to expand...

And you should check sometime which states have the highest rates of poverty, the lowest education rates, the lowest income rates, the highest divorce rates, the highest teenage pregnancy rates - they're generally RED states. That sorta does a number on your apparent "Liberals are destroying America" attitude.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Glen Contrarian said:
In other words, there's more of US than there are of YOU. America's changing, guy, and you can't stop it. Get used to it.
Click to expand...

The question comes down to this..... Are you willing to do what needs to be done to stop US (the Right). As you pointed out, you folks got more votes, but the Right still controls the House. We can and most definitely WILL stop you folks if push comes to shove; will you?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Morality and your belief of something being "essential" is subjective. Nothing more than any religious moral argument.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Glen Contrarian said:
I think you meant to say, "most REPUBLICANS" aren't interested in what you're selling", because most AMERICANS support Democrats. Democratic House candidates received more than a million more votes than Republican House candidates did...but thanks to gerrymandering, the Republicans maintained their majority in the House.

In other words, there's more of US than there are of YOU. America's changing, guy, and you can't stop it. Get used to it.
Click to expand...

Yeah it changing alright, lower credit rating, higher debt, smaller work force, it won't be long until people that believe as you will simply be bait.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Glen Contrarian said:
And you should check sometime which states have the highest rates of poverty, the lowest education rates, the lowest income rates, the highest divorce rates, the highest teenage pregnancy rates - they're generally RED states. That sorta does a number on your apparent "Liberals are destroying America" attitude.
Click to expand...

yeah that must be why Detroit is dead, LA and Chicago aren't far behind. Obama equals Detroit on a larger scale
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Glen Contrarian said:
Take two people, one that is poor, only earning the minimum wage, and one that is rich.

The poor person may not be paying any federal or state income taxes...but he does pay a lot of other taxes - sales tax, utility taxes, gas taxes, et al - and these taxes take up a much greater proportion of a that poor person's income than they do of a rich person's income. Of course, one might argue that these are only 'use taxes'...but if you think about it, all taxes are 'use taxes'...and any rich person uses FAR more of America's taxpayer-funded infrastructure than any poor person.

Adam Smith, the "Father of Capitalism", recognized this when he said:

"The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state."

and

“The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”

But in today's political Right, the "Father of Capitalism" would be branded a bleeding-heart liberal socialist.

Be that as it may, conservatives are right about one thing - taxes ARE wealth redistribution. But when the rich pay the extra taxes, do those dollars go up in a puff of smoke? Of course not. When the poor get money - through whatever means, but preferably through work - they SPEND that money...and the money they spend helps to support their local businesses, which supports the local economy, which helps the national economy. HOWEVER, if a rich person decides to send their money to the Caymans or opens factories in China, those dollars are - as far as the American economy goes - WASTED.

That is why it is good for the nation - in morality and in effect - that the rich pay higher progressive taxes.
Click to expand...

I'm not against the progressive tax system. IMO, it only makes sense. I am opposed to those taxes collected going to bloated and overreaching social welfare programs (progressive distribution of taxes). The tax system shouldn't put undue burden on the poor. They are the most vulnerable financially. Nor should the taxes collected be used in an other than extremely limited safety net way regarding social welfare, such that people can only access that safety net for a limited amount of time, and also limited application in a given range of years (e.g. 6 months of unemployment benefits and/or 6 months food stamps (paid concurrently or otherwise), within a 10 year period (or something to that effect)). Also, for programs like social security, one should only be able to take out what they've put in taking into account inflation and special circumstances.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Rocketman said:
I think you want communism, most working Americans aren't interested in what you're selling
Click to expand...
If progressive taxation is communism, then most Americans are communists, as they support progressive taxation by wide margins.

There used to be a time when Republicans actually believed in mainstream ideas like progressive taxation, a social safety net, Social Security, etc. That is when Republicans could win elections without gerrymandering districts. Now, they believe in fringe ideas like flat taxes, getting rid of the Fed and the gold standard.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

MTAtech said:
If progressive taxation is communism, then most Americans are communists, as they support progressive taxation by wide margins.

There used to be a time when Republicans actually believed in mainstream ideas like progressive taxation, a social safety net, Social Security, etc. That is when Republicans could win elections without gerrymandering districts. Now, they believe in fringe ideas like flat taxes, getting rid of the Fed and the gold standard.
Click to expand...

flats taxes are fair, progressive taxing is discrimination, so liberals support discrimination. who would have thought that?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Glen Contrarian said:
they SPEND that money...and the money they spend helps to support their local businesses, which supports the local economy, which helps the national economy. HOWEVER, if a rich person decides to send their money to the Caymans or opens factories in China, those dollars are - as far as the American economy goes - WASTED.
Click to expand...

Really? The vast majority of poor people shop at businesses like Wal-Mart because they need prefer not to spend on local businesses. (That still does help the national economy but definitely not the local economy.) The upper class are the ones buying organic local goods that cost more.

Poor people also don't do any hiring. People with capital to invest create jobs. Sure... some of those jobs go overseas but most jobs can't get away with that. (You can't hire a construction worker in India to build a home in the US.) But really, even if the jobs are created in China, many of those factories go to produce goods for a cheaper price that get shipped to America. That means Americans save more money.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Rocketman said:
flats taxes are fair, progressive taxing is discrimination, so liberals support discrimination. who would have thought that?
Click to expand...
Discrimination per se, is not necessarily unfair. In hospital emergency rooms, they take the most serious injuries first. I guess that's discrimination against the moderately injured, but nobody would argue that it is not sensible. Requiring passengers on a bus to give up their seat to the elderly is discrimination too but it is indeed reasonable and fair.

Likewise, requiring those with large incomes to pay a higher proportion of their income to fund the common good is also sensible and fair.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

libertyMoney said:
Really? The vast majority of poor people shop at businesses like Wal-Mart because they need prefer not to spend on local businesses. (That still does help the national economy but definitely not the local economy.) The upper class are the ones buying organic local goods that cost more.

Poor people also don't do any hiring. People with capital to invest create jobs. Sure... some of those jobs go overseas but most jobs can't get away with that. (You can't hire a construction worker in India to build a home in the US.) But really, even if the jobs are created in China, many of those factories go to produce goods for a cheaper price that get shipped to America. That means Americans save more money.
Click to expand...
How do you know where poor people shop? In most cities there is no Walmart.

Demand caused hiring, nothing else.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

MTAtech said:
Discrimination per se, is not necessarily unfair. In hospital emergency rooms, they take the most serious injuries first. I guess that's discrimination against the moderately injured, but nobody would argue that it is not sensible. Requiring passengers on a bus to give up their seat to the elderly is discrimination too but it is indeed reasonable and fair.

Likewise, requiring those with large incomes to pay a higher proportion of their income to fund the common good is also sensible and fair.
Click to expand...

no its discrimination, to say otherwise makes you a hypocrite
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Rocketman said:
no its discrimination, to say otherwise makes you a hypocrite
Click to expand...
As I said, discrimination, per se isn't a bad thing. We don't let those under 21 drink alcohol or smoke. We don't let blind people get driver licenses. We also discriminate on the basis of income and that is legally and morally acceptable.

Contending that all discrimination is wrong, regardless of the basis, is an infantile argument.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

The oppressed rich have to deal with so much unfair discrimination. How will they survive?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

MTAtech said:
There used to be a time when Republicans actually believed in mainstream ideas like progressive taxation, a social safety net, Social Security, etc.
Click to expand...

Right now.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Glen Contrarian said:
Take two people, one that is poor, only earning the minimum wage, and one that is rich.

The poor person may not be paying any federal or state income taxes...but he does pay a lot of other taxes - sales tax, utility taxes, gas taxes, et al - and these taxes take up a much greater proportion of a that poor person's income than they do of a rich person's income. Of course, one might argue that these are only 'use taxes'...but if you think about it, all taxes are 'use taxes'...and any rich person uses FAR more of America's taxpayer-funded infrastructure than any poor person.

Adam Smith, the "Father of Capitalism", recognized this when he said:

"The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state."

and

“The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”

But in today's political Right, the "Father of Capitalism" would be branded a bleeding-heart liberal socialist.

Be that as it may, conservatives are right about one thing - taxes ARE wealth redistribution. But when the rich pay the extra taxes, do those dollars go up in a puff of smoke? Of course not. When the poor get money - through whatever means, but preferably through work - they SPEND that money...and the money they spend helps to support their local businesses, which supports the local economy, which helps the national economy. HOWEVER, if a rich person decides to send their money to the Caymans or opens factories in China, those dollars are - as far as the American economy goes - WASTED.

That is why it is good for the nation - in morality and in effect - that the rich pay higher progressive taxes.
Click to expand...

1) many of the poor are USING money TAKEN from others to pay those taxes. Thus the poor are not paying sales taxes, etc, the NET TAX PAYER ARE

2) the progressive tax system will ultimately collapse because politicians are encouraged to pander to more and more voters by promising them more and more "services" paid for by tax increases on a voting minority


3) this increases the number of people who are NOT earning money but spending money earned by others which is not good for the economy
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

MTAtech said:
As I said, discrimination, per se isn't a bad thing. We don't let those under 21 drink alcohol or smoke. We don't let blind people get driver licenses. We also discriminate on the basis of income and that is legally and morally acceptable.

Contending that all discrimination is wrong, regardless of the basis, is an infantile argument.
Click to expand...

saying is it ok to rob one person to pay another makes you a worse bigot than a slave owner
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Tigger said:
The question comes down to this..... Are you willing to do what needs to be done to stop US (the Right). As you pointed out, you folks got more votes, but the Right still controls the House. We can and most definitely WILL stop you folks if push comes to shove; will you?
Click to expand...

We don't have to shove. If you'll check, the great majority of young adults are quite liberal. The change is happening, and nothing this side of a right-wing coup or something that shuts down the entire internet can stop it. The efforts of the Right, such as gerrymandering and voter suppression, are nothing more than delaying actions.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Glen Contrarian said:
If you'll check, the great majority of young adults are quite liberal. \
Click to expand...

Democrat is not liberal.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Rocketman said:
saying is it ok to rob one person to pay another makes you a worse bigot than a slave owner
Click to expand...
Yeah, taxes are the same thing as robbery. This isn't a rational argument. But in any case, I think there are a lot more important moral issues in the world than defending the right of the rich to keep their money.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

MTAtech said:
This isn't a rational argument; I think there are a lot more important moral issues in the world than defending the right of the rich to keep their money, but whatever.
Click to expand...

Poor people pay taxes too, silly goose (which you support fully).
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

MTAtech said:
Yeah, taxes are the same thing as robbery. This isn't a rational argument. But in any case, I think there are a lot more important moral issues in the world than defending the right of the rich to keep their money.
Click to expand...

You are dishonest enough to dismiss this argument. Slavery was about forced servitude, robbing the rich of their earning from their labor is the same
 
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