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Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.[W:963:1176:1448]

Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

yeah quote the guy responsible for more small business failures than any President in our history with his NRA legislation that SCOTUS had to stop but they were tool late
You really have no grasp of history. By the time FDR was inaugurated unemployment was 25% and GDP dropped by 50% since 1929. FDR's policies reversed the misery. There was a good reason he was elected in four landslide elections.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Really, is that why all those hispanics risk their lives to cross the border illegally knowing they have a job when they get here?

the programming is deep in this one

I'd say your last sentence applies more to thee than me - because I used to be one of you. I voted for Reagan and Bush 41. I was a strong conservative for many years.

No, guy, it was me who broke out of my conservative programming when I began seeing past the wall of BS.

And as for your first sentence, where is it that they go to find many, perhaps most of those jobs? Farms and orchards, where they do the backbreaking work that most Americans won't do. Now think about this, guy - where are those farms and orchards? Almost exclusively in rural areas. And what political stripe is strongest in rural areas? Conservative. So...why aren't the CONSERVATIVES in those rural areas doing the work? There's a lot of unemployed there, too, you know.

Look at a list sometime and see which STATES have the highest rates of poverty, lowest rates of education, highest rates of divorce, highest rates of teenage pregnancy, and lowest income? Generally speaking, it's RED states.

In other words, you really need to force yourself to look at the REAL statistics, compare how well the red states are doing compared to the blue states - whether socially or economically - and ask yourself, WHY is it that despite being conservative ever since before the Civil War, WHY is the Deep South still the poorest, most backward region of the nation? If being conservative is an advantage for a society, then the Deep South should be on top, rather than being on the bottom...and the blue states should all be on the bottom, rather than mostly being better off than the red states.

Challenge yourself, guy - ask yourself the hard questions that you normally don't want to hear.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You really have no grasp of history. By the time FDR was inaugurated unemployment was 25% and GDP dropped by 50% since 1929. FDR's policies reversed the misery. There was a good reason he was elected in four landslide elections.

Ignoring NRA legislation does not change facts. He alone whittled something liek 30+ domestic tire makers down to around 12. Do some reading then come back to us with sensible stuff.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I stand by what I said. those who want handouts or to control other people tend to vote for Democrats

Really?

Tell me, guy - what's the most successful, best-educated, highest-earning ethnic group in America? Here's a clue - it's not the Whites.

It's the Asians...but according to YOU, the reason why they voted most strongly for Obama was...they just want a handout.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I'd say your last sentence applies more to thee than me - because I used to be one of you. I voted for Reagan and Bush 41. I was a strong conservative for many years.

No, guy, it was me who broke out of my conservative programming when I began seeing past the wall of BS.

And as for your first sentence, where is it that they go to find many, perhaps most of those jobs? Farms and orchards, where they do the backbreaking work that most Americans won't do. Now think about this, guy - where are those farms and orchards? Almost exclusively in rural areas. And what political stripe is strongest in rural areas? Conservative. So...why aren't the CONSERVATIVES in those rural areas doing the work? There's a lot of unemployed there, too, you know.

Look at a list sometime and see which STATES have the highest rates of poverty, lowest rates of education, highest rates of divorce, highest rates of teenage pregnancy, and lowest income? Generally speaking, it's RED states.

In other words, you really need to force yourself to look at the REAL statistics, compare how well the red states are doing compared to the blue states - whether socially or economically - and ask yourself, WHY is it that despite being conservative ever since before the Civil War, WHY is the Deep South still the poorest, most backward region of the nation? If being conservative is an advantage for a society, then the Deep South should be on top, rather than being on the bottom...and the blue states should all be on the bottom, rather than mostly being better off than the red states.

Challenge yourself, guy - ask yourself the hard questions that you normally don't want to hear.

They find them in high end hotels, Chicago for instance. Most of the high end hotels downtown have many non english speaking staff, the restaurants downtown are full of hispanics, are they all illegal, probably not, but reason suggest some are. people that want to work are working, people that want subsidy are drawing it.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

You really have no grasp of history. By the time FDR was inaugurated unemployment was 25% and GDP dropped by 50% since 1929. FDR's policies reversed the misery. There was a good reason he was elected in four landslide elections.

FDR prolonged the misery.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

sadly many voters get all the benefits and privileges but don't pay nearly enough dues

FDR is pretty much the mother of all turds to those of us who prefer a limited federal government as the founders intended
I would wear that badge with honor.

Also, you put words into the founder's mouths the way a TV evangelist uses scripture to justify bad behavior. The idea that the founders wanted a limited federal government is a crock. They saw the failure of a limited federal government in the Articles of the Confederation and didn't want to repeat the mistake in the Constitution.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Really?

Tell me, guy - what's the most successful, best-educated, highest-earning ethnic group in America? Here's a clue - it's not the Whites.

It's the Asians...but according to YOU, the reason why they voted most strongly for Obama was...they just want a handout.

There are reasons why Asian Americans vote this way. This is especially true of the Chinese American and Korean American community in Los Angeles (young and old alike), whether new legal immigrants or established multi-generational Americans.

You would be astonished at some of the reasons why they voted for Gov. Moonbeam and Obama, based on issues that many in these communities feel is quite significant, yet many of which are politically incorrect.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

We don't have to shove. If you'll check, the great majority of young adults are quite liberal. The change is happening, and nothing this side of a right-wing coup or something that shuts down the entire internet can stop it. The efforts of the Right, such as gerrymandering and voter suppression, are nothing more than delaying actions.

That's why we own guns and ammunition.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Really?

Tell me, guy - what's the most successful, best-educated, highest-earning ethnic group in America? Here's a clue - it's not the Whites.

It's the Asians...but according to YOU, the reason why they voted most strongly for Obama was...they just want a handout.

which ones?

so tell me what would cause prosperous Asians to vote Dem?

how many come from societies where people are free?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

I would wear that badge with honor.

Also, you put words into the founder's mouths the way a TV evangelist uses scripture to justify bad behavior. The idea that the founders wanted a limited federal government is a crock. They saw the failure of a limited federal government in the Articles of the Confederation and didn't want to repeat the mistake in the Constitution.

Über Dung.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

How can I possibly counter that display of wit?

You could pretend your opinion is fact. Like when you claim FDR was not a complete failure.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

We don't have to shove. If you'll check, the great majority of young adults are quite liberal. The change is happening, and nothing this side of a right-wing coup or something that shuts down the entire internet can stop it. The efforts of the Right, such as gerrymandering and voter suppression, are nothing more than delaying actions.

Really?

iglnwvn0jeaslencabs5iq.gif

In 2010, Conservatives Still Outnumber Moderates, Liberals

Historically, the percentage of liberals are 20 points below the percentage of conservatives, it would seem.

Or perhaps you are reflecting wishful thinking?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Take two people, one that is poor, only earning the minimum wage, and one that is rich.

The poor person may not be paying any federal or state income taxes...but he does pay a lot of other taxes - sales tax, utility taxes, gas taxes, et al - and these taxes take up a much greater proportion of a that poor person's income than they do of a rich person's income. Of course, one might argue that these are only 'use taxes'...but if you think about it, all taxes are 'use taxes'...and any rich person uses FAR more of America's taxpayer-funded infrastructure than any poor person.

Adam Smith, the "Father of Capitalism", recognized this when he said:

"The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state."

and

“The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”

But in today's political Right, the "Father of Capitalism" would be branded a bleeding-heart liberal socialist.

Be that as it may, conservatives are right about one thing - taxes ARE wealth redistribution. But when the rich pay the extra taxes, do those dollars go up in a puff of smoke? Of course not. When the poor get money - through whatever means, but preferably through work - they SPEND that money...and the money they spend helps to support their local businesses, which supports the local economy, which helps the national economy. HOWEVER, if a rich person decides to send their money to the Caymans or opens factories in China, those dollars are - as far as the American economy goes - WASTED.

That is why it is good for the nation - in morality and in effect - that the rich pay higher progressive taxes.

Could you elaborate on this?

"any rich person uses FAR more of America's taxpayer-funded infrastructure than any poor person."
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Could you elaborate on this?

"any rich person uses FAR more of America's taxpayer-funded infrastructure than any poor person."

For example, 5% of tax payers pay 60% of income taxes (and a larger share of other federal taxes). Do they use more than 60% of spending?
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

About that 'limited unemployment benefits' observation. You do know, don't you, that there are three people actively looking for work for every single job that's available, right? So two out of those three ain't going to get a job no matter what...and that's even assuming that the lucky ones all qualify for the jobs that are available.

Let's say we cut off those unemployment benefits - what happens to those who have no job and absolutely no money? They (and all too often, their family) are out on the street. So how, then, are they supposed to get a job? How easy is it for a homeless person to get a job? If it was very difficult before they were homeless, now it's damned near impossible since they no longer have a way to take a shower and shave, much less maintain decent clothing.

So what happens? More crime. More problems for businesses and homes near where those homeless are. And higher taxes and retail costs for the rest of us to pay for the increased law enforcement and business insurance costs.

In other words, YOU PAY ANYWAY. Whether the people are receiving unemployment benefits or on the streets, YOU PAY ANYWAY. One way, there's still hope that someday they'll get a job - the other way, there's almost no way they'll get a job, and a much greater chance that they'll become part of the largest and most expensive prison system in the world.

YOU PAY ANYWAY, guy. You just have to ask yourself which is the wiser choice in the macroeconomic picture?

There are a lot of what ifs and assumptions being made in this argument. It really isn't that difficult to find a job. It may be difficult to find a job that you want, that you've studied for, or qualified for, or pays what you're expecting, or doing what you want to do. If you've exhausted all local opportunities, you may have to take a job in a different town or city. Maybe learn a new skill. Having a job is critical, and they are out there though a lot of people don't want to go outside their comfort zone to find them.

This, however, is a discussion about progressive taxes. You haven't mentioned anything about that. You're simply reaching pretty far to try to convince people that we need to pay regardless, which I'm not convinced of. You apparently believe society falls apart without 2+ year unemployment benefits and food stamps. You also forget to mention that a lot of people that lose their jobs and end up on the street obviously haven't taken the personal responsibility of saving money, living below their means, and having children they can afford. Sometimes life teaches people hard lessons, lessons that they need to learn rather than be babied through life.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Really?

iglnwvn0jeaslencabs5iq.gif

In 2010, Conservatives Still Outnumber Moderates, Liberals

Historically, the percentage of liberals are 20 points below the percentage of conservatives, it would seem.

Or perhaps you are reflecting wishful thinking?

Political Labels: Majorities of U.S. Adults Have a Sense of What Conservative,... and many do not

* 50 percent believe that conservatives support gun control or are not
sure.

* 46 percent think that conservatives support affirmative action or are
not sure.

* 23 percent think that conservatives support abortion rights or are not
sure.

* 19 percent think that conservatives support gay rights or are not sure.

* 15 percent believe conservatives support same-sex marriage or are not
sure.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

Take two people, one that is poor, only earning the minimum wage, and one that is rich.

The poor person may not be paying any federal or state income taxes...but he does pay a lot of other taxes - sales tax, utility taxes, gas taxes, et al - and these taxes take up a much greater proportion of a that poor person's income than they do of a rich person's income. Of course, one might argue that these are only 'use taxes'...but if you think about it, all taxes are 'use taxes'...and any rich person uses FAR more of America's taxpayer-funded infrastructure than any poor person.

Adam Smith, the "Father of Capitalism", recognized this when he said:

"The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state."

and

“The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”

But in today's political Right, the "Father of Capitalism" would be branded a bleeding-heart liberal socialist.

Be that as it may, conservatives are right about one thing - taxes ARE wealth redistribution. But when the rich pay the extra taxes, do those dollars go up in a puff of smoke? Of course not. When the poor get money - through whatever means, but preferably through work - they SPEND that money...and the money they spend helps to support their local businesses, which supports the local economy, which helps the national economy. HOWEVER, if a rich person decides to send their money to the Caymans or opens factories in China, those dollars are - as far as the American economy goes - WASTED.

That is why it is good for the nation - in morality and in effect - that the rich pay higher progressive taxes.

all crap. You never ever want to understand the end game. MOre and more keep voting themselves the wealth of others until the wealth runs out and too many people are dependent parasites and the whole thing collapses.

The rant about the caymans is ever more fecal in its stupidity
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

For example, 5% of tax payers pay 60% of income taxes (and a larger share of other federal taxes). Do they use more than 60% of spending?

of course not. they use per person LESS.

rich people generally do not

1) use public education
2) the emergency room as their personal doctor
3) police protection
4) the criminal court system
5) welfare
6) food stamps
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

They find them in high end hotels, Chicago for instance. Most of the high end hotels downtown have many non english speaking staff, the restaurants downtown are full of hispanics, are they all illegal, probably not, but reason suggest some are. people that want to work are working, people that want subsidy are drawing it.

Here's a clue, guy - you're full of it. You hear people not speaking English, so you assume that at least some are illegals. You look at people who don't have jobs, so you assume they must be lazy and not looking for a job. When you start verifying and stop assuming, you just might learn what I did...that so many of the assumptions that conservatives have are just that: assumptions, based on nothing more than prejudice against those who don't speak/act/think/vote like they do.
 
Re: Progressive taxation is not only essential, but MORAL.

There are reasons why Asian Americans vote this way. This is especially true of the Chinese American and Korean American community in Los Angeles (young and old alike), whether new legal immigrants or established multi-generational Americans.

You would be astonished at some of the reasons why they voted for Gov. Moonbeam and Obama, based on issues that many in these communities feel is quite significant, yet many of which are politically incorrect.

Ah. So when I point out that the single most successful, most highly-educated ethnic group in America (even more than whites) was the group that had the highest voting percentage for Obama...all you've got is, "ha-rumph, well, um, they must have reasons"....

Yes, they DO have reasons. They can see which side makes sense, and which side doesn't give much of a damn about anyone who isn't the conservative ideal of a "real" American i.e. white Anglo-Saxon protestant who loves guns and the military uber alles....
 
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