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"It's not going to end Well "

ARealConservative said:
the chairman of the Federal Reserve is on it, and he is appointed by the president.
Click to expand...

so the Federal Reserve says

Since 1995 there has been essentially no change in the basic CRA rules or enforcement process that can be reasonably linked to the subprime lending activity. This fact weakens the link between the CRA and the current crisis since the crisis is rooted in poor performance of mortgage loans made between 2004 and 2007. "


http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/20081203_analysis.pdf

since Bush appointed the fed chairman do you hear and obey?
 
ARealConservative said:
hey, the people Obama hand
selected to form the plunge protection team blames Bush

what more do you want?

/sarcasm
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Obama used to shake doxn banks in Chicago for "discrimination". Holder worked for Reno when she was going around bullying banks.

Verns entire premiseon sub-prime.

Bush's FHA initiative in 2007 and a lie about HUD
 
ARealConservative said:
hey, the people Obama hand

selected to form the plunge protection team blames Bush

what more do you want?

/sarcasm
Click to expand...

Obama used to shake down banks in Chicago for "discrimination". Holder worked for Reno when she was going around bullying banks.

Verns entire premiseon sub-prime.

Bush's FHA initiative in 2007 and blames Bush for Cuomo's part in the sub prime collapse.

Which was huge.

Thats it.
 
ARealConservative said:
hey, the people Obama hand selected to form the plunge protection team blames Bush

what more do you want?

/sarcasm
Click to expand...

I guess its safe to assume that Real Conservative finally figured out that I posted Bush’s Working Group on Financial Markets. He thought it was Obama’s working group. Oh how he railed that it was typical fingerpointing. Oh how he ignored it was from October 2008. Oh how he ignored the fact that I told him several times it was Bush’s working group.

And that pretty much sums up most of my posts. I post a fact that conflicts with what conservatives have been told to believe and they instantly lose the ability to reason. Which brings up a problem with the “conservative entertainment complex”. Once they tell a lie and conservatives believe it, they put so much effort fighting actual facts that dispute that lie. It just seems since conservatives wont let go of the lies, shouldn't the “conservative entertainment complex” be more responsible?

Anyhoo, Bush (BUSH NOT OBAMA) ‘s working group told us the Bush Mortgage Bubble started late 2004 when banks lowered their lending standards. Bush (BUSH NOT OBAMA) ‘s working group said GSEs bought these bad mortgages. Bush (BUSH NOT OBAMA) ‘s working group sorta left out the part where Bush (BUSH NOT OBAMA) ‘s regulators did nothing to stop it. No bad mortgages, no Bush Mortgage bubble, no financial collapse, no worst recession since the depression, no trillion dollar deficts.
 
So in 6 years DOW stock on average has not increased in value a dollar??

And if you factor in inflation, DOW stock on average in real value has declined significantly, right?

And wouldn't that NOT include any bankruptcies so no longer on the DOW list where people lost just about everything too?

For some time I've felt we are in a known managed decline in which the solution will be systematically reducing the value of money - messing with the books every way possible to deny that is exactly what is happening. Anyone who goes shopping knows it is.
 
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Vern said:
I guess its safe to assume that Real Conservative finally figured out that I posted Bush’s Working Group on Financial Markets. He thought it was Obama’s working group. Oh how he railed that it was typical fingerpointing. Oh how he ignored it was from October 2008. Oh how he ignored the fact that I told him several times it was Bush’s working group.

And that pretty much sums up most of my posts. I post a fact that conflicts with what conservatives have been told to believe and they instantly lose the ability to reason. Which brings up a problem with the “conservative entertainment complex”. Once they tell a lie and conservatives believe it, they put so much effort fighting actual facts that dispute that lie. It just seems since conservatives wont let go of the lies, shouldn't the “conservative entertainment complex” be more responsible?

Anyhoo, Bush (BUSH NOT OBAMA) ‘s working group told us the Bush Mortgage Bubble started late 2004 when banks lowered their lending standards. Bush (BUSH NOT OBAMA) ‘s working group said GSEs bought these bad mortgages. Bush (BUSH NOT OBAMA) ‘s working group sorta left out the part where Bush (BUSH NOT OBAMA) ‘s regulators did nothing to stop it. No bad mortgages, no Bush Mortgage bubble, no financial collapse, no worst recession since the depression, no trillion dollar deficts.
Click to expand...

Are you really this dense?

we aren’t England with kings. Congress makes laws. The bubble belongs primarily to congress, not the president.

So congressional members on the left look to their own economic experts, right? Here is one of them:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_tR7H3y4OuqQ/TMhanRBPrSI/AAAAAAAABIc/uGu-m5vqF4g/s1600/aii.jpg
 
ARealConservative said:
we aren’t England with kings. Congress makes laws. The bubble belongs primarily to congress, not the president.
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Sorry real conservative, this conversation is not gong to get better. Republicans controlled congress in 2004 when the Bush Mortgage Bubble started. And you cant really blame them because the it was policies that Bush used to encourage and fund the mortgage bubble not legislation. And the regulators at the OCC and OTS who ignored the 300 % increase in subprime and 1000 % increase in No Doc loans worked for Bush not congress. And even if it was legislation, bush would have signed it so your attempt to shift blame was a dead end from the start.

Here’s Bush’s most toxic policy. He preempted all state laws against predatory lending. (it was later ruled unconstitutional)

“By early 2004, these concerns prompted Georgia and more than 30 other states to pass laws designed to eliminate abusive or predatory lending practices by the financial services firms, including those with federal charters, operating within their boundaries.

Acting on a request from a national bank, the OCC in 2003 concluded that federal law preempts the provisions of the Georgia Fair Lending Act (GFLA) that would otherwise affect national banks’ real estate lending.

……..
In addition, clarification of the applicability of state laws to national banks should remove disincentives to subprime lending and increase the supply of credit to subprime borrowers.”


http://www.occ.gov/publications/publications-by-type/economics-working-papers/2008-2000/wp2004-4.pdf

and fyi, somebody who thinks President Obama was president in 2008 should ease up on calling people dense. And I have a sneaking you think democrats controlled congress in 2004 (Fenton thought that too. I think he still believes it)
 
Blue_State said:
So I need to buy gold. Other than that...everythign is fine...nothing to see here.
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Gold is only good at the far end when rebuilding starts after an economic collapse. It won't do you a bit of good in the first 3-6 months. For that period having a few boxes of ammo would be better. After Katrina it was not the guy with gold who was rich, it was the guy with a few cases of bottled water.
 
tech30528 said:
Gold is only good at the far end when rebuilding starts after an economic collapse. It won't do you a bit of good in the first 3-6 months. For that period having a few boxes of ammo would be better. After Katrina it was not the guy with gold who was rich, it was the guy with a few cases of bottled water.
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I have always thought that. I never really understood the value of gold. I get people want it, but why? As you mention...water was more valueable than gold. I get that.
 
Vern said:
Sorry real conservative, this conversation is not gong to get better. Republicans controlled congress in 2004 when the Bush Mortgage Bubble started. And you cant really blame them because the it was policies that Bush used to encourage and fund the mortgage bubble not legislation
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The others were right. You are a waste of time on a forum such as this.

I know this is going to go in one ear and out the other, but I strongly suggest you open your mind and consider another angle.

The issue of the bubble and who to blame is not a partisan issue. It is a monetary one. Both democrats and republicans have embraced the Keynesian policy of stimulating the economy and preventing any form of slowdown from happening.

When it was clear the bubble had burst, both McCain and Obama pledged to suspend their campaigns to come together in a bipartisan effort to stimulate the economy.

What they mean by stimulating the economy is re-inflating the bubble.

Our national debt depends on sustained growth. I don’t think it is accurate to blame that on one party or the other anymore, but I’m not interested in partisan hackery. You thrive on it.
 
Vern desperately wants Bush to be at fault so he can blame Obama's
continued failure on him.

To think a grown individual in this day and age could be so blinded by their corrupt ideology that after 4 years of failure they point to the last President as the cause.

Unreal.

Its why his arguments on sub prime are desperately one dimensional, hollow and easily defeated.

His best argument is Bush's FHA initiative. FHA insn't Fannie and Freddie Vern. Not even a fraction of their numbers. AND that initiative started in 2007.

Its ok. His "type" isbecomming more and more obscure as the truth gets out that reveals how corrupt the Democrats actually are.
 
Blue_State said:
I have always thought that. I never really understood the value of gold. I get people want it, but why? As you mention...water was more valueable than gold. I get that.
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To me gold is a hedge against inflation and the massive devaluing of the dollar that continues at record pace (which, btw, has gone up every year for over a decade now... surprise, surprise). Not so much about a means of barter after the Armageddon.
 
ARealConservative said:
I know this is going to go in one ear and out the other, but I strongly suggest you open your mind and consider another angle.
Click to expand...
Help me out, what angle
ARealConservative said:
The issue of the bubble and who to blame is not a partisan issue.
Click to expand...
Mmmm, it was a partisan issue when you and yours blamed Carter, Clinton, Barney Frank, CRA, GSEs etc.
ARealConservative said:
I don’t think it is accurate to blame that on one party or the other anymore, but I’m not interested in partisan hackery. .
Click to expand...

thats a pretty telling statement. "its not accurate to place blame anymore". Accuracy doesn't have a time limit. I posted Bush’s working group on Financial Markets telling you the Bush Mortgage Bubble started in late 2004 . You were certainly “interested in partisan hackery” when you were cluelessly thought I was posting Obama’s working group. And feel free to admit you thought democrats controlled congress when you tried to blame congress.
And I posted Bush’s OCC telling you they preempted all state laws against predatory lending with the explicitly stated purpose of INCREASING SUBPRIME LENDING. You didn’t let me tell you about Bush’s policy of forcing the GSEs to buy more low income home loans, reducing downpayments to zero and reversing the Clinton rule that reined in Freddie and fannie. And guess what, those policies were enacted by Bush in 2004. Yep, the same year the Bush mortgage bubble started.
Sorry, I’m posting actual facts because I’m not “ interested in partisan hackery”
 
Vern said:
Mmmm, it was a partisan issue when you and yours blamed Carter, Clinton, Barney Frank, CRA, GSEs etc.
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this discussion ends with this. until you can link to me blaming Carter and Clinton, you are just throwing crap out there hoping something... anything sticks.

you are new in this forum. you are making a cardinal mistake of assuming people like me are as partisan as people like you.

as an FYI - I spend more time arguing with conservatives - atleast I used to when they dared defend Bush (and later McCain and Romney)
 
Vern said:
Mmmm, it was a partisan issue when you and yours blamed Carter, Clinton, Barney Frank, CRA, GSEs etc.
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I'm sorry but "you and yours" is pretty clear. If you didnt blame Carter, Clinton, Barney Frank, CRA, GSEs then I apologize for the "you" part. But when I post Bush's working and told you it Bush's working group, you kept arguing "the president appoints the working group" as if that made the facts go away because you thought it was President Obama's working group.

I post facts. Facts are not partisan. I dont post 'editorials'. I'm not trying to "out" rhetoric anybody. I'm not going to pretend something doesn't exist just because it doesnt fit a narrative.

So now that we are on the same page, what do you think about Bush's working group telling you the mortgage bubble started in late 2004.
 
joko104 said:
And if you factor in inflation, DOW stock on average in real value has declined significantly, right?
Click to expand...
Yep. The DJIA, adjusted for inflation, is about 10% lower than its peak in 2007.

This is a common oversight when talking about equities. They're never adjusted for inflation.


And wouldn't that NOT include any bankruptcies so no longer on the DOW list where people lost just about everything too?
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Erm... that's not really how it works.

If you want something more comprehensive, you can look at the S&P 500, or the NYSE Comprehensive Index (NYA). If you aren't a serious investor, though, most of the major indexes track close enough for informal use.


For some time I've felt we are in a known managed decline....
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We aren't. It's entirely normal for equities to go up and down.
 
Vern said:
Help me out, what angle

Mmmm, it was a partisan issue when you and yours blamed Carter, Clinton, Barney Frank, CRA, GSEs etc.


thats a pretty telling statement. "its not accurate to place blame anymore". Accuracy doesn't have a time limit. I posted Bush’s working group on Financial Markets telling you the Bush Mortgage Bubble started in late 2004 . You were certainly “interested in partisan hackery” when you were cluelessly thought I was posting Obama’s working group. And feel free to admit you thought democrats controlled congress when you tried to blame congress.
And I posted Bush’s OCC telling you they preempted all state laws against predatory lending with the explicitly stated purpose of INCREASING SUBPRIME LENDING. You didn’t let me tell you about Bush’s policy of forcing the GSEs to buy more low income home loans, reducing downpayments to zero and reversing the Clinton rule that reined in Freddie and fannie. And guess what, those policies were enacted by Bush in 2004. Yep, the same year the Bush mortgage bubble started.
Sorry, I’m posting actual facts because I’m not “ interested in partisan hackery”
Click to expand...

Oh I blame Clinton, and have shown over and over his unending effort to mandate lower lending standards through the enforcement and strengthening of CRA, his GSE Act, which put the GSEs under HUS regulatory power and instituted a quota system, his National Home Ownership stategy....( that you said Bush put through.....in 1994 ). his signing of the Grahm Leachey Act and his signing of the Futures and Modernization Act.

AND I've quoted him saying that the Democrats after he left should have follow through with the regulation of the GSEs. Hindsight for slick willie.

Barney Frank was a huge proponent in the 90s working with community groups like ACORN to force lower lending standards AND to force the GSEs into buying cut rate low quality loans. The GSEs bought their first low quality alt-a loan in 1997, not 2004.

Barney Frank fought the Bush's attempt to regulate the GSEs. I've quoted his testimony.


Not to mention from 1993 to 1998 he replaced all of the executives including the CEOs in Fannie and Freddie with his own corrupt Liberal buddies. Franklin Raines and friends.

Ive posted actual liberal testimony as they fought against Bush's effort to regulate Fannie and Freddie, videos, etc.

What did you post Vern..?

"Nuh-uhhh..." basically thats what you posted. And some clap trap about FHA initiatives when FHA was a fraction of the 6 trillion dollars of sub-prime debt thats now on the books of the treasury.

The Feds buying up MBS Vern. Take a looksy from where they're coming from.

But nothing beats the motivation of your typical corrupt liberal for trying to pin this, unsucessfully on Bush, and thats to blame him for Obama's incompetence.

Vern you lost what little legitimacy you had when you posted the thread celebrating the rich getting richer.

If you don't understand the impact of printed currency on the stock market, your damn sure not going to understand the cause of the sub-prime collapse.
 
Oh and please post where Clinton "reigned them in " Vern.

Not your word, facts and evidence.
 
Fenton said:
Oh and please post where Clinton "reigned them in " Vern.

Not your word, facts and evidence.
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oh fenton, I'm going to chuckle about "not your word, facts and evidence" all day. And fenton, I've already posted it. Your brain protects from harmful reality. Just like I posted the 2004 FHA Bush policy that increased the number of homebuyers by 150,000. You imagined it was a 2007 policy. I then posted the Bush policy of PREEMTING ALL STATE LAWS AGAIINST PREDATORY LENDING with the explicitly stated purpose of INCREASING SUBPRIME LOANS and then you imagined that was the 2007 FHA policy.

so fenton, you have to read it slow over and over until it gets through (and fenton, you posted the WaPo link too)

"(In 2000) HUD restricted Freddie and Fannie, saying it would not credit them for loans they purchased that had abusively high costs or that were granted without regard to the borrower's ability to repay."

How HUD Mortgage Policy Fed The Crisis

"In 2004, the 2000 rules were dropped and high‐risk loans were again counted toward affordable housing goals."
http://www.prmia.org/pdf/Case_Studies/Fannie_Mae_and_Freddie_Mac_090911_v2.pdf

ARealConservative said:
talking to yourself? :2razz:
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oh real, I cut and pasted what I said that upset you to A show you it wasnt just about you and B apologize. Again I'm sorry. and I'm sorry I gave you any credit. For somebody who thought President Obama was president in 2008 and repeatedly ignored me telling you it was Bush's working group combined with that childish response, I guess you're about 12, 13 tops.
 
joko104 said:
So in 6 years DOW stock on average has not increased in value a dollar??

And if you factor in inflation, DOW stock on average in real value has declined significantly, right?

And wouldn't that NOT include any bankruptcies so no longer on the DOW list where people lost just about everything too?

For some time I've felt we are in a known managed decline in which the solution will be systematically reducing the value of money - messing with the books every way possible to deny that is exactly what is happening. Anyone who goes shopping knows it is.
Click to expand...
This is exactly correct.
 
Blue_State said:
I have always thought that. I never really understood the value of gold. I get people want it, but why? As you mention...water was more valueable than gold. I get that.
Click to expand...
The adage "buy low, sell high" is as true for gold as anything else. If you bought gold 10 years ago....
 
Vern said:
oh real, I cut and pasted what I said that upset you to A show you it wasnt just about you and B apologize. Again I'm sorry. and I'm sorry I gave you any credit. For somebody who thought President Obama was president in 2008 and repeatedly ignored me telling you it was Bush's working group combined with that childish response, I guess you're about 12, 13 tops.
Click to expand...

the 2razz smiley is considered a friendly gesture. you should really lighten up.
 
Vern said:
oh fenton, I'm going to chuckle about "not your
word, facts and evidence" all day. And
fenton, I've already posted it. Your brain protects from harmful reality. Just like I posted the 2004 FHA Bush policy that increased the number of homebuyers by 150,000. You imagined it was a 2007 policy. I then posted the Bush policy of PREEMTING ALL STATE LAWS AGAIINST PREDATORY LENDING with the explicitly stated purpose of INCREASING SUBPRIME LOANS and then you imagined that was the 2007 FHA policy.

so fenton, you have to read it slow over and over until it gets through (and fenton, you posted the WaPo link too)

"(In 2000) HUD restricted Freddie and Fannie, saying it would not credit them for loans they purchased that had abusively high costs or that were granted without regard to the borrower's ability to repay."

How HUD Mortgage Policy Fed The Crisis

"In 2004, the 2000 rules were dropped and high‐risk loans were again counted toward affordable housing goals."
http://www.prmia.org/pdf/Case_Studies/Fannie_Mae_and_Freddie_Mac_090911_v2.pdf



oh real, I cut and pasted what I said that upset you to A show you it wasnt just about you and B apologize. Again I'm sorry. and I'm sorry I gave you any credit. For somebody who thought President Obama was president in 2008 and repeatedly ignored me telling you it was Bush's working group combined with that childish response, I guess you're about 12, 13 tops.
Click to expand...

150,000 ?!!! OMG...

Really Vern ? There were 29 million sub-prime loans in the US by 2008 and over 70% wound up on the books of Fannie and Freddie.

Remember CRA was extended to all " US Nonbank financial companies " in the 111th Congress and targets were set for CRA complaince.

Barney Frank called it a "top priority".

Add to that the 1992 "Affordable Housing Goals " that forced quotas on the GSEs to buy up crap mortgages and then push them out into the worldd investment market and you have a Democrat mandated bubble and the poisoning of the worlds investment market by Clintons appointed cronies.

But you point to 150k loans through the FHA.

This is why your arguments are so easily brushed aside. They lack truth and integrity and your one objective is to blame Bush for Obama's incompetence .

Quit embarrasing yourself
 
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