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Are we hamstringing evolution by hiding from viruses???

jaypatriot said:
Good point, Bodi,
Modern medicine is allowing us to live to around 80 years old because we learn to avoid certain illnesses that are curable or manageable. Genetics, of course, plays an important role also. I play handball against a guy who is 82 years old, and he moves like he is 60. A combination of modern medicine, clean living, and genetics.
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I was 45 when I played this 80 something year old guy in tennis. Grass court. I won.

That makes me awesome...

...except it doesn't. I won 6-2, 6-1 or something. I thought. How in the hell did I lose three games against this super old guy.

:lol:
 
Fiddytree said:
Perhaps you would do well to consider saying this out loud to people who have died from or during the COVID-19 outbreak.

“I’m sorry, but I think your loved one’s death was necessary for human evolution.”


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My pleasure...would you be willing to do the same for the exponentially greater numbers of future generations effected???


As much as I hate to quote Ben Shapiro, “facts don’t care about our feelings”..

Left field example....

At least The last 3-4 generations of women in my family have died from skin cancer.

Well if me or my daughter were to have kids with an African, Hispanic or any or their race that doesn’t have to sweat skin cancer. My descendants for a dozen generations will not have to worry about it...

If me or my daughter have kids with some Irish partner the trend continues..


Is it wrong to ask your daughter to choose a partner because of that??

Morally , I guess..... but tell that to all the later generations that die of skin cancer...


PS: my daughters mother is as Irish as they come lol... feelings do not care about facts either.


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Fiddytree said:
Perhaps you would do well to consider saying this out loud to people who have died from or during the COVID-19 outbreak.

“I’m sorry, but I think your loved one’s death was necessary for human evolution.”


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Call me crazy but is there any time that counterpoint is used where the person does not know they are doing the wrong thing, but continue to do so to protect the feelings of another party??


Kinda like when someone does something “for principle”...

When has one ever done the logical or best thing for them “for principle “??

We say that as an excuse for doing the wrong thing....or for hurting ourselves by doing the thing..

For example: “I wanted to go to Disneyland, but because the kids were bad we did not go on principle .”


If you didn’t want to go in the first place then you would never say “for principle “..


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jaypatriot said:
Well, I wouldn't sat that to someone who died from Covid-19. That would be insensitive.
And I would never think or say that someone's death was necessary for human evolution.
But I do wonder if it was necessary for Neanderthals to be squeezed out of existence so that homo sapiens could dominate the species. Was the disappearance of Neanderthals necessary for homo sapiens to multiply and prosper?
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Their response is the biggest deflection answer in history..

The only time someone EVER makes that case is when they cannot think of an actual counterpoint. So instead they go emotional, because emotional is subjective and doesn’t care about logic or reason..


Exactly the same as when someone says they did something “for principle” , if it was the correct move, you probably wouldn’t need the disclaimer.


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Fiddytree said:
Perhaps you would do well to consider saying this out loud to people who have died from or during the COVID-19 outbreak.

“I’m sorry, but I think your loved one’s death was necessary for human evolution.”


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Click to expand...

PS..

Would you say the same to the family of a victim of a traffic death about why we don’t all drive 35mph??

All what?? 30,000 deaths a year??

We choose money over lives every day.. let alone something like evolution...


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Waddy said:
I think it is a contributing factor. But the real reason the cities have been hit so hard is vitamin D deficiency. This vitamin is essential to building a strong immune system. It is what blocks the "cytokine storm" which kills people with Covid. It is produced by sun exposure. Not much in food. The darker your skin the more sun exposed time it takes to produce it. 42% of Americans are low in vitamin D. For blacks that is almost 80%, and over half of Hispanics. here are some facts to back this up;

When vitamin d is checked for, 6 of 8 Covid deaths were low vitamin D.
black people are around 11% of the population but 62% of Covid deaths.
old people in nursing homes get very little sunlight.

Having adequate levels of vitamin D (and C) can really help protect you because they are so important to the immune system.
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That's interesting.

It's too bad that the President mentioned light as a good device to fight the virus. That removes the value of Sun light as a therapeutic measure.

It seems like the folks who run elderly care facilities should be serving up cocktails of Vitamin C and D and maybe wheeling the population into the Sun light...

I was noticing only the Age Demographics of those identified as Covid victims. Under age 50, the fatal impact is almost nil.

On TV, we are told by the authority figures only to panic, hide and never come out again. The obvious age conclusions are neglected. Your observations are not strongly emphasized.

It REALLY makes me wonder WTF is going on.
 
ArtemisBarca said:
So much of human evolution is powered by us trying to keep up with the viruses we encounter..

So much that it is theorized that the reason for the length of any creatures life span is how long it can live and still change enough to keep up with how fast viruses evolve..

How much does modern medicine hamstring that???


A certain percentage of the evolution of our immune systems require viruses to kill off the percentage of the population that is not immune to it, so only the immune systems that can handle the virus are passed on ..

So wouldn’t there be a price to pay for avoiding them rather than letting our immune systems learn to cope with them???


It seems to me that our immune systems would not keep up?

For sure I could have a fundamental misunderstanding of how all of that works, but if not....


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Can you source any of the bold?




This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa
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Checkerboard Strangler said:
You're wrong, turns out it's killing people of all ages.
You just aren't current on the research.
And as usual you are ignoring the clinical toll.

But don't worry, in six months or a year you will be reminded by the barrage of all day "Coronavirus Debt Relief" advertisements that will be flooding the airwaves.

TO ALL who keep carping about the virus "only killing old people", your comments are noted and they will not age well at all. By the way, I guess "ALL LIVES MATTER" is a thing of the past and never really was true anyway, right?
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Your conclusions are stupid, not founded in fact and free of any wisdom whatever.

More than 90% of all deaths attributed to coronavirus in Indiana occur in the age groups 60 years and up. That demographic comprises about 15% of the overall Indiana population.

ISDH - Novel Coronavirus: Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19)
 
ArtemisBarca said:
Evolution is random mutations that are more useful and so they get passed on..
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Incorrect. That is a much lesser common driver of evolution.

The main mechanism is the collection and distribution of beneficial genes throughout a population that enable the most individuals to survive to successfully reproduce.





This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa
Click to expand...
 
jaypatriot said:
Well, I wouldn't sat that to someone who died from Covid-19. That would be insensitive.
And I would never think or say that someone's death was necessary for human evolution.
But I do wonder if it was necessary for Neanderthals to be squeezed out of existence so that homo sapiens could dominate the species. Was the disappearance of Neanderthals necessary for homo sapiens to multiply and prosper?
Click to expand...

People too old to breed dying have zero impact on evolution.

And I believe that Homo sapiens were the last straw of environmental pressures that drove the neanderthals TO extinction. (Been awhile since I read up on it). We hunted them, drove them from the best hunting and resources, and interbred with them. Basically we out-competed them.



This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa
Click to expand...
 
Waddy said:
I think it is a contributing factor. But the real reason the cities have been hit so hard is vitamin D deficiency. This vitamin is essential to building a strong immune system. It is what blocks the "cytokine storm" which kills people with Covid. It is produced by sun exposure. Not much in food. The darker your skin the more sun exposed time it takes to produce it. 42% of Americans are low in vitamin D. For blacks that is almost 80%, and over half of Hispanics. here are some facts to back this up;

When vitamin d is checked for, 6 of 8 Covid deaths were low vitamin D.
black people are around 11% of the population but 62% of Covid deaths.
old people in nursing homes get very little sunlight.

Having adequate levels of vitamin D (and C) can really help protect you because they are so important to the immune system.
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Sources please?
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
It has mutated and there are 4 major strains of it. What I do not know is if a vaccine developed for one will work on the others
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The safest bet, right now, to protect those most vulnerable to Covid is to reverse quarantine them separated and protected from everyone else.
 
code1211 said:
In some ways, yes and in others, no.

The age demographics of this disease seem pretty specific.

I'm no researcher, but it seems very obvious that a 90% share of fatalities occurring in a 15% share of the population points at something significant.

What is it that young people have "on board" that old people lack?

It "feels" like this might be a promising track for research to pursue. I've heard absolutely NOTHING about this being pursued, though.

The fatalities attributed to Coronavirus separate almost exactly along the lines of fatalities not attributed to Coronavirus. I've seen this reported nowhere.

I wonder WHY it has not been reported.
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If it hasn't been reported, where are you getting your information?

Older people are more vulnerable because immune systems weaken with age. That's not a big secret. Since the elderly are no longer in the reproductive phase of their lives, killing them off, or letting them live longer has no evolutionary effect.
 
cabse5 said:
The safest bet, right now, to protect those most vulnerable to Covid is to reverse quarantine them separated and protected from everyone else.
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And how do you do that?

The most vulnerable often require living assistance from healthy people. Do you quarantine them as well? What about their families?

Trying to protect the vulnerable cascades quite far into to community if it is going to be actually tried rather than given lip service to
 
ArtemisBarca said:
So much of human evolution is powered by us trying to keep up with the viruses we encounter..
So much that it is theorized that the reason for the length of any creatures life span is how long it can live and still change enough to keep up with how fast viruses evolve..
How much does modern medicine hamstring that???
A certain percentage of the evolution of our immune systems require viruses to kill off the percentage of the population that is not immune to it, so only the immune systems that can handle the virus are passed on ..
So wouldn’t there be a price to pay for avoiding them rather than letting our immune systems learn to cope with them???
It seems to me that our immune systems would not keep up?
For sure I could have a fundamental misunderstanding of how all of that works, but if not....
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Click to expand...

Science and medicine are traits which evolved naturally in humans to help protect us from viruses, bacteria, prions, etc.
These are parts of humans' natural defenses
 
ArtemisBarca said:
Call me crazy but is there any time that counterpoint is used where the person does not know they are doing the wrong thing, but continue to do so to protect the feelings of another party??


Kinda like when someone does something “for principle”...

When has one ever done the logical or best thing for them “for principle “??

We say that as an excuse for doing the wrong thing....or for hurting ourselves by doing the thing..

For example: “I wanted to go to Disneyland, but because the kids were bad we did not go on principle .”


If you didn’t want to go in the first place then you would never say “for principle “..


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It’s not a deflection to notice the real world implications of your rather lazy rhetorical embrace of eugenics.


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The debate has to do with how to properly manage contagious diseases and in particular how to treat infectious illnesses, not eugenics. I appreciate some of you have issues of contempt for each other from previous posts but the fact I respond to the thread starter does not mean I support eugenics. His questions are asked daily by immunologists and health regulators. So if you may be uncomfortable with the questions I get it but calling the thread starter pro eugenics or simply saying ridiculous is name calling. It is what one does when they have nothing to offer. Thank you.
 
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The biggest mistake people are making, in my humble opinion, is that we're focused more on the death count than the clinical toll.
The death count is a tragedy, to be sure, but the death count is not the crisis.
The clinical toll on our healthcare infrastructure, and the long term damage that the virus is doing to patients who survive, is the real crisis.
As long as everyone's attention is kept on "the shiny thing" (the death count) the necessary attention to the clinical toll and the efforts to combat the virus can be deflected away, and people will not consider it.

And the entire thing will ultimately be "normalized".
And that's quite possibly the biggest mistake we can ever make as an entire species.
 
If you look at it that way then any and all medicine and medical help thwarts evolution. Or does it? Evolution happens whether we do something or nothing at all. Remember, evolution does not require a purpose, it has no purpose at all, it simply exists.
 
Fiddytree said:
It’s not a deflection to notice the real world implications of your rather lazy rhetorical embrace of eugenics.


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Do you think the mentally disabled should be allowed to reproduce??


You know, 2 people with genetic disorders who could never take care of the child..


Presently we do not let them by state and federal law..

That is eugenics , right??


If I choose to marry an African American to negate the risk of skin cancer, because it is a major threat for my descendants.. that is eugenics..


Again... super sad deflection.

It reminds me of a conservative who thinks that pointing at something and calling it socialism is a rock solid rebuttal lol..


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Lord Tammerlain said:
And how do you do that?

The most vulnerable often require living assistance from healthy people. Do you quarantine them as well? What about their families?

Trying to protect the vulnerable cascades quite far into to community if it is going to be actually tried rather than given lip service to
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We've been thru this in multiple threads...he's been proven wrong by many people.

Look at my signature....that should give a hint. And he cannot answer this question: what is the purpose of preserving medical resources, the goal, to spread them out by 'flattening the curve.'? He has no idea, he has not made the connection even tho it's been spelled out for him. IMO he believes it was to hoard them and sell them later :roll:




This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa
Click to expand...
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Science and medicine are traits which evolved naturally in humans to help protect us from viruses, bacteria, prions, etc.
These are parts of humans' natural defenses
Click to expand...

For sure, but I doubt it is free...

The stronger our science gets, then the weaker our primal immune system gets.. I’m guessing.

See the modern world requires TOTALLY different skills than cave man days on the macro level , correct???


Do our immune systems favor totally different skills than caveman days??

Nope....


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Mika-El said:
The debate has to do with how to properly manage contagious diseases and in particular how to treat infectious illnesses, not eugenics. I appreciate some of you have issues of contempt for each other from previous posts but the fact I respond to the thread starter does not mean I support eugenics. His questions are asked daily by immunologists and health regulators. So if you may be uncomfortable with the questions I get it but calling the thread starter pro eugenics or simply saying ridiculous is name calling. It is what one does when they have nothing to offer. Thank you.
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For sure this is a political thing, but I don’t think it has to do with previous posts..

People see someone questioning the quarantine and shut down, and assume it is a trump supporter coming at it from a conspiracy angle, or a foo foo peta type who thinks we should shun technology..


I am neither..


If most actually took the time to read the OP the would probably notice their mistake..


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Vadinho said:
If you look at it that way then any and all medicine and medical help thwarts evolution. Or does it? Evolution happens whether we do something or nothing at all. Remember, evolution does not require a purpose, it has no purpose at all, it simply exists.
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No it does not...I kinda think almost everyone here has a fundamental misunderstanding of evolution..it only matters if people are killed off before reproducing OR get to reproduce more because of it..

So I don’t know if exposure cuts it.

Only the genetic stuff where the patient would not have lived to pass on the defective or substandard gene..

With bacterial diseases we are exposed , then pinicillian helps fight it..

But that said I’m not sure exposure matters evolution wise..

Women are born with all their eggs, right??

So how does them being exposed get passed on??

It doesn’t.. or maybe the exposures of the grandmother does, but not mom..


Evolution only comes into play when things reproduce more or less because of a trait..


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