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November 3rd will decide, are we a Proactive nation, or a Reactive nation?

gdgyva said:
We have nukes because other nations have nukes....PERIOD

And we have a defense because we have had presidents D & R that have sent our troops into foreign soil....and parents want those kids equipped with the best and most modern possible equipment possible....do you disagree with those points?

Now...if you want to change our foreign affairs....and have us leave NATO....and let other nations start defending themselves, then say so....we can cut defense 40-50% a year.....turtle on our shores, and let China, Russia, and whoever else dictate whatever terms they want around the world

Is that your position?

And conoravirus has little to do with our defense budget.....
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President Eisenhower's farewell address:

Eisenhower's Military-Industry Complex Warning, 50 Years Later : NPR

When I was in the Navy and before I was assigned as the projectile man in a 5 inch gun, I was standing on the bridge as port lookout when this same 5 inch gun discharged. My only protection was the very heavy metal hat which did not protect my hearing. The OD on the bridge took out two filtered cigarettes and took of the filters and gave them to me to put in my ears. So, yes, I want our men and women to have the best equipment possible.

That said, IKE would not have made such a statement, given his experience as a General Officer, if he did not see what has become our future; that being a rusting infrastructure and how poorly we are prepared to defend us from a virus.

We need a federal government which is proactive, not reactive as can be seen by the chaos in which we are all living with today.
 
Wry Catcher said:
President Eisenhower's farewell address:

Eisenhower's Military-Industry Complex Warning, 50 Years Later : NPR

When I was in the Navy and before I was assigned as the projectile man in a 5 inch gun, I was standing on the bridge as port lookout when this same 5 inch gun discharged. My only protection was the very heavy metal hat which did not protect my hearing. The OD on the bridge took out two filtered cigarettes and took of the filters and gave them to me to put in my ears. So, yes, I want our men and women to have the best equipment possible.

That said, IKE would not have made such a statement, given his experience as a General Officer, if he did not see what has become our future; that being a rusting infrastructure and how poorly we are prepared to defend us from a virus.

We need a federal government which is proactive, not reactive as can be seen by the chaos in which we are all living with today.
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do you believe the coronavirus is a bioterror weapon?

if not, i have zero idea on where the hell you are going with this

defense is one department.....

the CDC belongs to the Department of Health of Human Services (not Defense)

so again....what does one have to do with the other?
 
gdgyva said:
do you believe the coronavirus is a bioterror weapon?

if not, i have zero idea on where the hell you are going with this

defense is one department.....

the CDC belongs to the Department of Health of Human Services (not Defense)

so again....what does one have to do with the other?
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Defense can be an invasion of an army, or a virus; both need to be defended against. We are putting tons of money into the defense of an invasion by a foreign nation-state, and too little to protect us from a virus. Is that too complicate or abstract for you to understand? 70,000 dead since Feb 2020, three thousand dead on 9-11 + the number dead and wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan + the cost to our treasury in both theaters.

The Federal Government's duty is to create and enforce laws around justice, peace, defense, welfare, liberty, and prosperity for a "more perfect" country for all Americans. The Trump Administration and The Congress has failed in each one of these goals established by We the People and signed off by the Founders of the United States.
 
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Trypt said:
I think the OP is right, Democrats are about social and genetic engineering, and they are great at imagining problems that don't exist and offering solutions. If they did get absolute power, they would attempt to engineer their ideal progressive society by breeding deplorables out of the genepool.

Republicans see western society as largely working as intended, with tweaks here and there. I wish they didn't react or act at all really, only in making sure the constitution is followed by the states and municipalities, but that's about it (other than securing the border from invaders naturally). The feds should have no more power than that, as intended.

But like I said, the OP is correct in the fundamental difference between the two ideologies of the two parties.
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Genetic engineering? They see western society as working because it privileges them.
 
TurtleDude said:
that assumes I support massive military budgets-I don't and your comment does not excuse the reactionary parasitic statism that dominates leftist thought these days
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You support trump. Yes you do, your voting record speaks for itself.
 
TurtleDude said:
I realize to some, the market economy is divorced from the prancing fields of unicorns that some on the left yearn for. But wages are controlled by supply and demand.
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The supply and demand analysis must be grounded in reality. It assumes all other things kept constant
 
Wry Catcher said:
Defense can be an invasion of an army, or a virus; both need to be defended against. We are putting tons of money into the defense of an invasion by a foreign nation-state, and too little to protect us from a virus. Is that too complicate or abstract for you to understand? 70,000 dead since Feb 2020, three thousand dead on 9-11 + the number dead and wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan + the cost to our treasury in both theaters.

The Federal Government's duty is to create and enforce laws around justice, peace, defense, welfare, liberty, and prosperity for a "more perfect" country for all Americans. The Trump Administration and The Congress has failed in each one of these goals established by We the People and signed off by the Founders of the United States.
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the congress is the problem....always has been, and always will be

but until we mandate what the military is to be used for....big expensive shiny toys made by corporations who can line lobbyists and congressmans pockets will be where the dollars go.....

you want to change our role in the world? fine....but define what our MISSION is....and then build a military just for that purpose

and when something happens elsewhere let someone else take over and help out....

congress dictates where the money is spent.....president has ONE POWER....sign or VETO....that is it
 
Tahuyaman said:
It does not assume all other things are kept constant. Explain why you believe that.
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Ceteris paribus is a very common assumption in the field of economics, my field of study. (admittedly only a bachelor’s degree). Monopoly and monopsony power along with price elasticity are things that throw a wrench into the usual supply/demand curve.
 
gdgyva said:
the congress is the problem....always has been, and always will be

but until we mandate what the military is to be used for....big expensive shiny toys made by corporations who can line lobbyists and congressmans pockets will be where the dollars go.....

you want to change our role in the world? fine....but define what our MISSION is....and then build a military just for that purpose

and when something happens elsewhere let someone else take over and help out....

congress dictates where the money is spent.....president has ONE POWER....sign or VETO....that is it
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For years I believed that the president ought to have the line - item veto, as many state governors have used responsibly; but, that was until trump became president. Of course he is unique among past American Presidents and many of the 20th Century state governors; he is vindictive and would abuse this power.

That said, the Defense Dept and the State Dept need to work and plan together to form a cohesive and pragmatic foreign policy. Unfortunately, Donald Trump is still a novice in all areas areas of policy management, he makes decision by his gut, which has led to chaos in the world community and a mockery of the United States.
 
Wry Catcher said:
Looks like my thread is a failure, it has not attracted a debate on the truth within the OP, or how some might feel the OP doesn't reflect reality. I suspect that those who read the OP and disagree are not able to provide a rebuttal, an expository few paragraphs explaining their opinion on economics in America for me, and for anyone who has agreed with me.
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I am impressed with your attempt to generate a debate over whether national parties are reactive or proactive.
There is no 'one size fits all' when it comes to a political response or a social reaction.
Your initial post gave too many variables; too many ways to interpret your arguments.
 
gulfman said:
Joe the Plumber isn't having any problem right now.He's making money hand over fist.Suzy the hair stylist and Lance the Bartender are the ones that are broke as hell.That's their own fault.They need to get real jobs.
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I can't even get a roof gutter installer to call me back. His message says he is booked out 2-3 months.
Some workers are cashing in on people staying home trying to get things done around the house.
 
Trypt said:
I think the OP is right, Democrats are about social and genetic engineering, and they are great at imagining problems that don't exist and offering solutions. If they did get absolute power, they would attempt to engineer their ideal progressive society by breeding deplorables out of the genepool.

Republicans see western society as largely working as intended, with tweaks here and there. I wish they didn't react or act at all really, only in making sure the constitution is followed by the states and municipalities, but that's about it (other than securing the border from invaders naturally). The feds should have no more power than that, as intended.

But like I said, the OP is correct in the fundamental difference between the two ideologies of the two parties.
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Obama was the ultimate Social Justice Warrior - always trying to find ways to move the society in a particular direction to satisfy his ideas for social change.
He would have loved (being in the White House) this period in history where Democrats want to spend trillions on policies for the poor and for people of color.
 
Wry Catcher said:
General Elections impact the nation, in recent decades this means the difference of a Fiscally Responsible policies when the Democrats are in power, and Fiscal Conservatism policies (trickle down) when the Republicans are in power.

Consider why we are today in such a serious recession now, it is because Joe the Plumber, that is the vast numbers of working men and women, are not out shopping, buying and working in jobs which keep dollars circulating across their communities. Their impact allows for profits and allows entrepreneurs the ability to profit, expand and hiring more and buying more from corporations; unfortunately the Tax "Reform" written by Ryan and signed by trump is a fraud, because 1/3 of the tax relief goes to the working men and women for 10 years and then sunsets, and 2/3 of the not needed relief without any strings on how it is spent comes with no sunset in sight.

BTW, Corporations are not people, they do not get a virus, suffer and some die. Corporations which do not adjust to changing circumstances do go out of business, and we can see how the major oil companies have invested in green and renewable energy, and Automobile Corporations are investing in Electric and other vehicle operating systems.

The Republican Party is in a reactionary state, and the Democratic Party is progressive; R's react, and D's are proactive. It is really that simple.
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I don't think the 2020 election is very profound. Its really Trump or Not Trump. There aren't any real issues that get litigated this year. Real issues are debated when the candidates are less important (they are both deemed capable, with presumption that each have America's interest at heart). That is not the case in this election.

I appreciate your grand look at the choice ahead of us, but its much more mundane.
 
upsideguy said:
I don't think the 2020 election is very profound. Its really Trump or Not Trump. There aren't any real issues that get litigated this year. Real issues are debated when the candidates are less important (they are both deemed capable, with presumption that each have America's interest at heart). That is not the case in this election.

I appreciate your grand look at the choice ahead of us, but its much more mundane.
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But don't you think there is so much anti-Trump fervor that Dems and Liberals would vote for anyone with a "D" after his/her name? My hope is that black voters stay home because Biden is not Obama.
 
TurtleDude said:
Nothing is more reactionary that screaming MORE TAXES and MORE GOVERNMENT for every problem
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Um...:

Conservatism and its modernising, anti-traditionalist rivals, liberalism and socialism, are the most influential political philosophies and ideologies of the post-Enlightenment era. Conservatives criticise their rivals for making a utopian exaggeration of the power of theoretical reason, and of human perfectibility. Conservative prescriptions are based on what they regard as experience rather than reason; for them, the ideal and the practical are inseparable. Most commentators regard conservatism as a modern political philosophy, even though it exhibits the standpoint of paternalism or authority, rather than freedom. As John Gray writes, while liberalism is the dominant political theory of the modern age, conservatism, despite appealing to tradition, is also a response to the challenges of modernity. The roots of all three standpoints “may be traced back to the crises of seventeenth-century England, but [they] crystallised into definite traditions of thought and practice only [after] the French Revolution” (Gray 1995: 78).

It is contested both what conservatism is, and what it could or ought to be—both among the public and politicians, and among the philosophers and political theorists that this article focuses on. Popularly, “conservative” is a generic term for “right-wing viewpoint occupying the political spectrum between liberalism and fascism”. Philosophical commentators offer a more distinctive characterisation. Many treat it as a standpoint that is sceptical of abstract reasoning in politics, and that appeals instead to living tradition, allowing for the possibility of limited political reform. On this view, conservatism is neither dogmatic reaction, nor the right-wing radicalism of Margaret Thatcher or contemporary American “neo-conservatives”. Other commentators, however, contrast this “pragmatic conservatism” with a universalist “rational conservatism” that is not sceptical of reason, and that regards a community with a hierarchy of authority as most conducive to human well-being (Skorupski 2015).

Conservatism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I hate to be pedantic, but if you are not bored with this ^^^, read on and then we can debate the issues.
 
Wry Catcher said:
General Elections impact the nation, in recent decades this means the difference of a Fiscally Responsible policies when the Democrats are in power, and Fiscal Conservatism policies (trickle down) when the Republicans are in power.

Consider why we are today in such a serious recession now, it is because Joe the Plumber, that is the vast numbers of working men and women, are not out shopping, buying and working in jobs which keep dollars circulating across their communities. Their impact allows for profits and allows entrepreneurs the ability to profit, expand and hiring more and buying more from corporations; unfortunately the Tax "Reform" written by Ryan and signed by trump is a fraud, because 1/3 of the tax relief goes to the working men and women for 10 years and then sunsets, and 2/3 of the not needed relief without any strings on how it is spent comes with no sunset in sight.

BTW, Corporations are not people, they do not get a virus, suffer and some die. Corporations which do not adjust to changing circumstances do go out of business, and we can see how the major oil companies have invested in green and renewable energy, and Automobile Corporations are investing in Electric and other vehicle operating systems.

The Republican Party is in a reactionary state, and the Democratic Party is progressive; R's react, and D's are proactive. It is really that simple.
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LOL, "proactive" as in take as much independence and freedom of choice from the people and give it to their "betters". No thank you.
 
Bullseye said:
LOL, "proactive" as in take as much independence and freedom of choice from the people and give it to their "betters". No thank you.
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Proactive is to take responsibility and to prepare early to create means to prevent or mitigate the damage to human life and property; reactive is to blame others for the damage done. I'm surprised that so many on this forum do not understand leadership means to lead, and that means to prepare for consequences and to plan ahead before the earthquake, tornado, hurricane or pandemic lands in their lap. The President is still in blame others mode, he is reacting in a most deplorable way.

We've seen in this century failures of leadership on 9-11-2001; Oct, 2008 and the ongoing failure which began when the first death's from the coronvirus were recorded in FEB 2020***

*** Coronavirus Death in California Came Weeks Before First Known U.S. Death - The New York Times
 
Wry Catcher said:
Proactive is to take responsibility and to prepare early to create means to prevent or mitigate the damage to human life and property; reactive is to blame others for the damage done. I'm surprised that so many on this forum do not understand leadership means to lead, and that means to prepare for consequences and to plan ahead before the earthquake, tornado, hurricane or pandemic lands in their lap. The President is still in blame others mode, he is reacting in a most deplorable way.

We've seen in this century failures of leadership on 9-11-2001; Oct, 2008 and the ongoing failure which began when the first death's from the coronvirus were recorded in FEB 2020***

*** Coronavirus Death in California Came Weeks Before First Known U.S. Death - The New York Times
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hogwash.jpghogwash.jpg
 
Bullseye said:
I don't rebut hogwash; I point it out.
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Correction, you use an ad hominem when faced with an argument you cannot rebut. It's sad and deplorable that those who support the current administration cannot see and admit reality which is right in front of them, i.e. CHAOS; the effort led by Donald Trump to divide our nation into tribes in the hope he will win a second term, no matter the consequences to our nation and its people.
 
Wry Catcher said:
Correction, you use an ad hominem when faced with an argument you cannot rebut. It's sad and deplorable that those who support the current administration cannot see and admit reality which is right in front of them, i.e. CHAOS; the effort led by Donald Trump to divide our nation into tribes in the hope he will win a second term, no matter the consequences to our nation and its people.
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What argument? Liberal talking points? The outright bull**** of claiming TRUMP is trying to divide the country? That's the worst case of projection I've seen. It's you guys on the left trying to divide us into little victim groups fighting with each other for the favors of our Democratic betters.
 
Wry Catcher said:
Looks like my thread is a failure, it has not attracted a debate on the truth within the OP, or how some might feel the OP doesn't reflect reality. I suspect that those who read the OP and disagree are not able to provide a rebuttal, an expository few paragraphs explaining their opinion on economics in America for me, and for anyone who has agreed with me.
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You must learn Patience, kick em where it hurts and it takes time to react.
 
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