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The truth about the PRO Act (pro-union dream bill)

Neomalthusian

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House approves pro-union labor bill

(what follows is from me, not the link)

This bill is called The Protecting the Right to Organize Act. It has provisions relating to franchising as well as independent contracting that are in some cases legitimately sketchy business practices and are maybe downright abusive and evasive of labor laws.

But the problem is they come bundled with four provisions that help unions (as an institution), not individual workers as a whole, by subjecting people who might not want to be associated with them to all manners of harassment, intimidation and coercion.

1) Eliminates NLRB-supervised secret ballot elections to unionize. Workers contemplating unionizing won't get to vote whether they want union representation or not. If a union organizer or even another militantly pro-union bargaining unit employee can convince them to sign a card, what would have been their secret ballot election vote has been cast. They can persuade, mislead, misrepresent, subtly intimidate, subtly coerce, and twist workers' arms into signing these cards. The NLRB has allowed this to happen because other pro-union employees are not considered "agents of the union."

If 100% of workers everywhere wanted nothing more than to unionize, this wouldn't be a big deal. But because unionizing is supposed to be based on a democratic process whereby the majority vote determines whether a union should be formed, there should be fair democratic election procedures. To eliminate elections doesn't "protect rights to organize." It infringes on the rights of workers who might not want to. The only way to maintain any semblance of fairness with regard to employees' rights to unionize or not unionize via card-check processes is by:

a) requiring NLRB-supervised recertification elections every, say, 2-5 years, or
b) eliminating exclusive representation, thereby effectively making it as easy for workers to opt back out of the union as it was for them to opt in via card-check​

Otherwise, NLRB-supervised secret ballot elections should be maintained.

2) It forces employers to hand over employees' personal information to unions. This goes hand-in-hand with #1 above. Employees' home address, personal email address, and mobile and home phone numbers must be given to unions. Why? So that they can dispatch organizers and pro-union co-workers on them to convince them to card-check unionize (see #1 above), or if it's public sector employment, to harass them into opting in to union membership and agree to pay dues even when their right not to is Constitutionally protected.

3) Abolishes states' private sector Right To Work laws. Right To Work simply says employers cannot agree to be unions' financial enforcers by agreeing to fire people the union tells them to fire based on non-payment of dues. I would maybe be resigned to be okay with this provision if there were regular recertification elections. But unions have always opposed letting their bargaining union employees hold a recertification election. Most union workers have never had the opportunity to actually vote in favor of or against their union representing them.

4) It subjects neutral third parties, who have never signed any agreement with a union, to strikes and secondary boycotts. These tactics that were prohibited over 70 years ago by the Taft Hartley Act, for good reason. This provision is a philosophy of unmitigated economic civil warfare, sabotage, and unrest. It's not only demented, it will come back to severely harm unions themselves. Why? Because if you're a business owner and you cannot or do not want to tolerate the risk of being subject to secondary boycotts, you will quietly find ways to avoid doing business with other companies that are involved with unions. The business community will put counter-pressure on other businesses to avoid unions, especially the militant ones that are known for exercising their new rights to conduct economic sabotage and secondary boycotts. So what happens over time? Business with unionized employees come under attack from both directions -- from unions who put pressure on their business partners, customers, et al. to not do business with them, and by those other business partners, customers, et al. to pressure the business to get away from this unionism. Simply put, this provision to legalize secondary boycotts and strikes is just absolutely ****ed in the head. It will make us all worse off, including unions themselves. It's a vote in favor of (economic) civil war. Civil war does not make countries better off.

Who here can explain how they can ideologically support provisions #1 through #4 above?
 
I operate a small business that relies very heavily on a third party vendor of a certain type of cloud based software platform.

Let's say the company that sells that software has a group of employees that unionize and then become locked in a labor dispute over wages. I have zero control over their labor dispute, other than what powers of persuasion little old me might have over someone who runs the software company who might listen to my opinion. Nonetheless, a union manager knocks on my door and warns me, "you sign this petition that tells the software company that you'll abandon them as a customer and go with their competitor if they don't agree to our terms, or if you don't sign the petition, we'll picket in front of your business and tell your customers you're anti-worker and do all we can to turn your customers away."

This is a secondary boycott. It is straight up coercion, to the bone. It directly harms me no matter what I do. If I switch software, that is a massive undertaking that would come at tremendous personal and business cost to me. If I don't switch software, or threaten to do so, I will be picketed and my customers will be driven away because they don't want to be harassed for "crossing a picket line." And let's say I cower to the union and switch software. The union will (if they haven't already) organize workers from the competing company and engage in the exact same actions as leverage over that competitor. They'll go back and forth doing this as much as they want.

Secondary boycotts are illegal, have been illegal for 73 years, and should remain illegal. The PRO Act wants to make them legal. Virtually all Democrats support secondary boycotts. That is demented. Someone explain to me why you think secondary boycotts should be legal. Explain why businesses of all kinds should be able to be picketed, boycotted, intimidated, coerced and economically sabotaged over disputes they're not a part of and can't control.
 
In right to work states you make $5,000 less than in non-right to work states. I don't think those laws are beneficial. As a Trump supporter, I'm pro-union and believe in workers rights.
 
In right to work states you make $5,000 less than in non-right to work states. I don't think those laws are beneficial.

Do you know what a right to work law is?

As a Trump supporter, I'm pro-union and believe in workers rights.

This (the PRO Act) isn't about workers' rights. Union Security Clauses (which right to work laws say are illegal) are also not about "workers' rights."
 
I'm for undoing as much right wing union busting as possible. It would be great to see right to work for less revoked, as well.
 
I'm for undoing as much right wing union busting as possible. It would be great to see right to work for less revoked, as well.

It isn't "union busting" when the NLRB supervises a secret ballot election. How are unions democratic if there doesn't even need to be secret ballot elections, and there are no automatic recertification elections, ever?

It also isn't "union busting" to prohibit secondary strikes and boycotts. The 50s-70s are often hailed as some sort of golden era of American labor (which is really just unions trying to take full credit for the post-war economic boom), but this golden era was after secondary boycotts and strikes were prohibited by federal law.

And just because you profusely lie about Right To Work, a friendly reminder that RTW has zero to do with compensation.

It's really too bad that areas likely in need of improved regulation, like abusive franchising and independent contracting practices, have their fate tied to some of these obscene proposals.
 
It isn't "union busting" when the NLRB supervises a secret ballot election. How are unions democratic if there doesn't even need to be secret ballot elections, and there are no automatic recertification elections, ever?

It also isn't "union busting" to prohibit secondary strikes and boycotts. The 50s-70s are often hailed as some sort of golden era of American labor (which is really just unions trying to take full credit for the post-war economic boom), but this golden era was after secondary boycotts and strikes were prohibited by federal law.

And just because you profusely lie about Right To Work, a friendly reminder that RTW has zero to do with compensation.

The right wing in my state has been union busting every chance it gets for years. Vote against.
 
The right wing in my state has been union busting every chance it gets for years. Vote against.

You're not paying attention. You're being a partisan lemming, chanting memes. "Yay unions! Boo, right wing union busters!"

Several of these provisions of the PRO Act are insane. I explained.
 
You're not paying attention. You're being a partisan lemming, chanting memes. "Yay unions! Boo, right wing union busters!"

Several of these provisions of the PRO Act are insane. I explained.

Right to work for less sucks. Having no representation or recourse sucks. Being able to get canned for any reason or for no reason at all sucks. The best way to fix that is to vote out the union busters. It won't solve all of the problems, but it will help with some of them.
 
Right to work for less sucks.

You've never acknowledged what Right To Work actually is. You say a lot of false and misleading things about it, but have never actually acknowledged what it literally is. You've insinuated that it's a law that pushes wages lower, which is false. You've insinuated it's a law that makes employment at-will. That is false. If you want to focus on Right To Work, you should start by acknowledging the facts about what it actually is.

Having no representation or recourse sucks.

Maybe having representation you don't want forced on you sucks too. Don't unions usually pride themselves in being "democratic," referencing the choice employees make to join together in a union? What is wrong with having a fair democratic election in that regard? The PRO Act seeks to eliminate these elections.

Being able to get canned for any reason or for no reason at all sucks.

That has nothing to do with any of this.

The best way to fix that is to vote out the union busters.

That also has nothing to do with anything I said in post #1 or #2. Try reading the topic and original post and responding to the actual points made, instead of repeating the same chant over and over?
 
Yes, if you do a good job at your company, you shouldn't be fired just because if what you wear, how you act or anything like that. It's not right that employers can fire anyone for those reasons. It's stupid.
 
You've never acknowledged what Right To Work actually is. You say a lot of false and misleading things about it, but have never actually acknowledged what it literally is. You've insinuated that it's a law that pushes wages lower, which is false. You've insinuated it's a law that makes employment at-will. That is false. If you want to focus on Right To Work, you should start by acknowledging the facts about what it actually is.



Maybe having representation you don't want forced on you sucks too. Don't unions usually pride themselves in being "democratic," referencing the choice employees make to join together in a union? What is wrong with having a fair democratic election in that regard? The PRO Act seeks to eliminate these elections.



That has nothing to do with any of this.



That also has nothing to do with anything I said in post #1 or #2. Try reading the topic and original post and responding to the actual points made, instead of repeating the same chant over and over?

Come to my state and work a career for a few decades. You'll find out all about it.
 
Right to work for less sucks. Having no representation or recourse sucks. Being able to get canned for any reason or for no reason at all sucks. The best way to fix that is to vote out the union busters. It won't solve all of the problems, but it will help with some of them.

Please, support unions all you want, and watch the jobs leave. No employer wants to deal with a union, they are malignancies. The only employee who needs a union is a bad employee. Good employees get treated well, bad ones are the ones who get fired.

In right to work states you make $5,000 less than in non-right to work states. I don't think those laws are beneficial. As a Trump supporter, I'm pro-union and believe in workers rights.

Without seeing this substantiated, I will start by pointing out that pro-union states are pretty universally far more expensive to live in as well. So that higher wage may result in less real income.
 
Yes, if you do a good job at your company, you shouldn't be fired just because if what you wear, how you act or anything like that. It's not right that employers can fire anyone for those reasons. It's stupid.
Maybe if your company treats you well, you shouldn't be able to quit just because of what your boss wears, if the new CEO is black, or anything like that. It's not right that employees can quit for any of those reasons. It's stupid.
 
Please, support unions all you want, and watch the jobs leave. No employer wants to deal with a union, they are malignancies. The only employee who needs a union is a bad employee. Good employees get treated well, bad ones are the ones who get fired.



Without seeing this substantiated, I will start by pointing out that pro-union states are pretty universally far more expensive to live in as well. So that higher wage may result in less real income.

Cost of living is lower, but it isn't worth the lack of representation and job security.
 
Please, support unions all you want, and watch the jobs leave. No employer wants to deal with a union, they are malignancies.

If you think employers don't like unions now, just imagine how that would intensify if they started being subject to strikes and boycotts over disputes they aren't even involved in. These sorts of tactics foment perpetual unrest and economic warfare between labor interests and potentially everyone else in society. I sincerely do not believe it would be good overall for workers or unions to encourage these tactics. They were outlawed over 70 years ago for entirely smart reasons.
 
I operate a small business that relies very heavily on a third party vendor of a certain type of cloud based software platform.

Let's say the company that sells that software has a group of employees that unionize and then become locked in a labor dispute over wages. I have zero control over their labor dispute, other than what powers of persuasion little old me might have over someone who runs the software company who might listen to my opinion. Nonetheless, a union manager knocks on my door and warns me, "you sign this petition that tells the software company that you'll abandon them as a customer and go with their competitor if they don't agree to our terms, or if you don't sign the petition, we'll picket in front of your business and tell your customers you're anti-worker and do all we can to turn your customers away."

.

And you then tell the union manager that you have nothing to do with the other companies labor dispute.. but if they persist on hassling you.. you will have no choice but to find another vendor, and that means that the company will have less business and won't need as many union workers.

Explain why businesses of all kinds should be able to be picketed, boycotted, intimidated, coerced and economically sabotaged over disputes they're not a part of and can't control.
Its called free speech for a reason.

By the way.. I own several large businesses that do business with union shops. My position on unions is this. If you treat your employees so badly that they are willing to give up 3-6% of their salary.. simply to have some representation... that's on you.
 
Please, support unions all you want, and watch the jobs leave. No employer wants to deal with a union, they are malignancies. The only employee who needs a union is a bad employee. Good employees get treated well, bad ones are the ones who get fired.

Yeah.. that's BS.

Without seeing this substantiated, I will start by pointing out that pro-union states are pretty universally far more expensive to live in as well. So that higher wage may result in less real income.
Not really when you consider that those pro union states.. generally get less money from the federal government than they give to the federal government.
 
Cost of living is lower, but it isn't worth the lack of representation and job security.

It depends, a lot of people don't want representation. A good employee doesn't want to be treated equal as their peers, they wanted to be treated by their merit. You know who wants unions? Marginal employees. People who are easily replaced and problematic employees. Good employees have lots of options and are likely to be paid/treated better than their peers. I really can't think of a union that has worked out for either the customer or the business long term.

If you think employers don't like unions now, just imagine how that would intensify if they started being subject to strikes and boycotts over disputes they aren't even involved in. These sorts of tactics foment perpetual unrest and economic warfare between labor interests and potentially everyone else in society. I sincerely do not believe it would be good overall for workers or unions to encourage these tactics. They were outlawed over 70 years ago for entirely smart reasons.

Honestly, part of me just wants to see this leftist bull**** get enacted at a state level so you can get a really good look at what the implosion looks like. Just look at Michigan, Illinois, New York, and California with their laws and regulations. They absolutely gutted working class industry in the name of protecting them. Good job dummies.

Not really when you consider that those pro union states.. generally get less money from the federal government than they give to the federal government.

Despite being amazingly non-sequitur, it is still wrong just like the first time you constantly throw out half-assed "facts". You need to adjust for entitlement, defense, and infrastructure spending and suddenly that gap disappears like a champ. 80% of it is simply retirees fleeing blue states upon retirement and dragging their medicare/ss with them.
 
It depends, a lot of people don't want representation. A good employee doesn't want to be treated equal as their peers, they wanted to be treated by their merit. You know who wants unions? Marginal employees. People who are easily replaced and problematic employees. Good employees have lots of options and are likely to be paid/treated better than their peers. I really can't think of a union that has worked out for either the customer or the business long term.



Honestly, part of me just wants to see this leftist bull**** get enacted at a state level so you can get a really good look at what the implosion looks like. Just look at Michigan, Illinois, New York, and California with their laws and regulations. They absolutely gutted working class industry in the name of protecting them. Good job dummies.



Despite being amazingly non-sequitur, it is still wrong just like the first time you constantly throw out half-assed "facts". You need to adjust for entitlement, defense, and infrastructure spending and suddenly that gap disappears like a champ. 80% of it is simply retirees fleeing blue states upon retirement and dragging their medicare/ss with them.

Horse**** to your "marginal employee" nonsense.
 
Horse**** to your "marginal employee" nonsense.

Really? How many people do you employ?

Just imagine this for a moment. Let's pretend you are an exceptional employee, in an in demand skillset, say a specialized welder. Why would you want a union, that you have to pay, which will get you a compensation package similar to the "average" member of the same employee class? You wouldn't, you would rather stand on your own merit and get treated accordingly.

I will give you a real example in my world. I employ a number of people, pretty diverse job descriptions. I have six employees who do the exact same thing. Five of those six are paid between 50-70k on an hourly basis per year, largely based on experience etc. The sixth is paid well in excess of $100k. Why? She is helpful, she is more productive, she is never a problem. She gets paid. If someone tried to recruit her away, I would fight. If one of the other five was a problem? I would replace them, because they are average and replaceable.

That's how business works. If you want to try an extort me with a union, then good luck to you and your career.

A wider example? The steel industry, the auto industry. Both of them had/have incredibly strong unions of largely unskilled labor that was built up during a time of global domination by domestic industries. They refused to adapt to the times with unions demanding job/wage/compensation "protection" which eventually imploded the industries. Where is the steel industry now? Where is the auto industry? They both got shattered. Now, the steel industry in the US is primarily non-union mini mills in right to work states. The auto industry has been gutted with even the Big3 having tiered employee classes and the bulk of auto-job growth in the US has moved to the south and non-union locales.

So your theory is cute in a perfect union world, but in reality it just doesn't work. Unfortunately some people are too stupid to see it.
 
Really? How many people do you employ?

Just imagine this for a moment. Let's pretend you are an exceptional employee, in an in demand skillset, say a specialized welder. Why would you want a union, that you have to pay, which will get you a compensation package similar to the "average" member of the same employee class? You wouldn't, you would rather stand on your own merit and get treated accordingly.

I will give you a real example in my world. I employ a number of people, pretty diverse job descriptions. I have six employees who do the exact same thing. Five of those six are paid between 50-70k on an hourly basis per year, largely based on experience etc. The sixth is paid well in excess of $100k. Why? She is helpful, she is more productive, she is never a problem. She gets paid. If someone tried to recruit her away, I would fight. If one of the other five was a problem? I would replace them, because they are average and replaceable.

That's how business works. If you want to try an extort me with a union, then good luck to you and your career.

A wider example? The steel industry, the auto industry. Both of them had/have incredibly strong unions of largely unskilled labor that was built up during a time of global domination by domestic industries. They refused to adapt to the times with unions demanding job/wage/compensation "protection" which eventually imploded the industries. Where is the steel industry now? Where is the auto industry? They both got shattered. Now, the steel industry in the US is primarily non-union mini mills in right to work states. The auto industry has been gutted with even the Big3 having tiered employee classes and the bulk of auto-job growth in the US has moved to the south and non-union locales.

So your theory is cute in a perfect union world, but in reality it just doesn't work. Unfortunately some people are too stupid to see it.

I am a specialized and highly educated and skilled employee. Representation would help me by increasing my ability to negotiate a better salary and job security. It's as simple as that.
 
I am a specialized and highly educated and skilled employee. Representation would help me by increasing my ability to negotiate a better salary and job security. It's as simple as that.

If you are an in demand employee, who is valuable beyond just the skillset (attitude/work ethic etc) then a union is holding you back, period. If you have a union, you are not negotiating any more at all, they are negotiating for a whole ton of people.

Think about it this way.

You, along with 100 of your classmates, go and take the SATs. You score a 1580/1600. The average is 1000, you are clearly vastly outperforming your peers. The "union" negotiates the SAT board to give everyone a 50 point bonus for some reason. You now have a 1050 score despite your actual ability getting you a 1580. The collective benefited, but the good performers are punished. It is no different with employment.

In a union everyone gets the same raise, the same pay scale, the same benefits and the same flexibility/protection etc. How would you feel if your union "protection" caused you to lose your job in a downsizing because you had less seniority to a terrible employee? How would you feel if your union, in order to protect a downsizing labor pool caused your employer to uproot and leave?

Anyone who is exceptionally, or even above average, should run far and fast from a union. They are meant to protect the marginal and the bottom performing. That's why the slugs always scream for a union.
 
If you are an in demand employee, who is valuable beyond just the skillset (attitude/work ethic etc) then a union is holding you back, period. If you have a union, you are not negotiating any more at all, they are negotiating for a whole ton of people.

Think about it this way.

You, along with 100 of your classmates, go and take the SATs. You score a 1580/1600. The average is 1000, you are clearly vastly outperforming your peers. The "union" negotiates the SAT board to give everyone a 50 point bonus for some reason. You now have a 1050 score despite your actual ability getting you a 1580. The collective benefited, but the good performers are punished. It is no different with employment.

In a union everyone gets the same raise, the same pay scale, the same benefits and the same flexibility/protection etc. How would you feel if your union "protection" caused you to lose your job in a downsizing because you had less seniority to a terrible employee? How would you feel if your union, in order to protect a downsizing labor pool caused your employer to uproot and leave?

Anyone who is exceptionally, or even above average, should run far and fast from a union. They are meant to protect the marginal and the bottom performing. That's why the slugs always scream for a union.

This is something that is somewhat complicated to explain unless you're inside it. Imagine that your employer is allowed to pretend that you aren't actually an employee and a couple companies control the access to work in your field. You're much better off with representation, and you're also a lot better off if other people have representation. If your employer knows that you could say **** it and move to a union job outside of your skill and education level and still make more money, that's a bargaining chip. Right to work for less seeks to eliminate that chip. In practice, it's ****.
 
Things this thread is not about:

- Union encouragement/protection of mediocrity/bare minimalism
- Wage comparisons between RTW and non-RTW states
- Blue vs. red state contributions to federal revenues and expenditures
- Unions being intrinsically “good” or “bad” overall

Things this thread is about

- The PRO Act, and the fact that it proposes to
- legalize secondary striking and boycotting
- eliminate NLRB-supervised secret ballot elections
- abolish private sector RTW (public sector RTW is a constitutional right)
- entitle unions to more private information of employees than even the IRS requires
 
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