• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The truth about the PRO Act (pro-union dream bill)

Sure they do. They demand unreasonable expectations from the company. Plenty of companies have just chosen to shut down or move operations instead of playing
games with the unions.
.
Honestly.. you are being absurd. SO.. you are telling me that a union (made of up employees)… would rather lose their jobs.. instead of getting a fair wage from their employer?

That's ludicrous. Employers use unions as a scapegoat for the fact that they can find cheaper employees somewhere else. Its just that simple. The employer has the control. No union is going to say "sorry.. but you offered a fair wage..but we want 3 times market rate in compensation and so you go ahead and close".

That's like saying that companies would go "you know what.. we are going to raise our prices 3 x the market rate.. even though we know we are going to lose all our customers".

It just doesn't happen. Sure.. employees in Oregon.. in a union... may not be able to compete with 2 dollar an hour salaries in Mexico.. or even minimum wage in Idaho because the employees in Oregon face higher living costs.. than mexico,, or Idaho...

but that doesn't make their need for a higher living wage.. "unreasonable".

Which is why you would think that unions would make more reasonable requests than what they do.
And they do. They do make reasonable requests.. all the time.. in fact.. the often bend backward for companies. Over the years.. unions have made more concessions than they have been getting increases.

The problem is.. a union cannot compete against 2dollars an hour in mexico and china.

ou just said it was free speech. i think you need to read your own post again.
Protesting is fine...harassment is not..whether by unions or the right wingers...

BUT.. its interesting that simply a union protesting.. is considered harassment by the right wingers... but threatening a lady and calling her names as she goes into planned parenthood.. is considered by them to be free speech.

(I read my post just fine).
 
Then tell us where. I only see anti-union pundits making those claims.

“(B) In any case in which a majority of the valid votes cast in a unit appropriate for purposes of collective bargaining have not been cast in favor of representation by the labor organization and the Board determines that the election should be set aside because the employer has committed a violation of this Act or otherwise interfered with a fair election, and the employer has not demonstrated that the violation or other interference is unlikely to have affected the outcome of the election, the Board shall, without ordering a new election, certify the labor organization as the representative of the employees in such unit and issue an order requiring the employer to bargain with the labor organization in accordance with section 8(d) if, at any time during the period beginning one year preceding the date of the commencement of the election and ending on the date upon which the Board makes the determination of a violation or other interference, a majority of the employees in the bargaining unit have signed authorizations designating the labor organization as their collective bargaining representative."

Lots of words, but what they mean is that whenever an organizing election fails, the union can reverse the results and win by 1) alleging some sort of employer "interference" occurred during the election, and 2) convincing whatever minimum number of additional votes they needed to agree to sign authorization cards (card-check), which can be done in any sort of unsupervised/unregulated way.

And again, solidarity strikes are legal in most nations, and yet it has not crippled capitalism around the world (surprise!). Nor do I see any problem with unions trying to amplify their leverage, especially in an environment where business owners can legally use similar mechanisms to amplify their leverage.

Some things organizations might like to do to amplify their leverage are illegal. Group boycotts, price-fixing, exclusionary contracts, trade association deals, these are tactics that are regulated for good reason by the FTC. The statement that "you see nothing wrong" with amplifying leverage using these types of tactics isn't a compelling argument. They've been regulated for generations because they're considered unfair business practices that reduce competition, innovation, quality, and increase prices.

It's "literal" in the sense that you're literally ignoring half the functionality of Right to Work laws.

I'm not literally ignoring anything. Union security clauses are specific things, and Right To Work laws just say "union security clauses are illegal."

No, the freeloader problem is that people benefit from collective bargaining even when they aren't in the union, don't have to pay dues, don't have to go to union meetings, don't have to go on strike, and so forth.

You're not understanding what I explained. When a union chooses to certify as "exclusive representative" over a specified bargaining unit, then all of those employees in the bargaining unit are represented by that union. They don't have a choice to be represented or not, at that point. They can't opt out of the representation. This is what creates unions' Duty of Fair Representation, which is the only way anyone could "freeload" from that union. If a union were to choose not to certify as exclusive representative, then its only duties of fair representation would be over its dues-paying members. It would have no representational or other duties for anyone opting out of its membership/refusing payment to it. So unions have this choice. They can either certify as exclusive representative and absorb the free-loaders in the bargaining unit, or they could structure themselves as members-only and all free-loaders would be excluded. At this point they almost always choose to continue with exclusive representation and absorb the freeloaders. Here's a longer explanation: Labor at a Crossroads: In Defense of Members-Only Unionism - The American Prospect
 
Yep..you just made hyperbole about unions without considering that the reason for unions is employer malfeasance.

I made up hyperbole/absurdism as a way of challenging you to explain where you draw the line on union tactics. I don't think you're considering the history of some of these practices and the entirely sensible reasons why Taft Hartley (which the PRO Act would roll back) was passed in the first place.

Sure..just like unions can't kidnap children and hold them ransom until employees vote for a union. The truth is.. that companies do far and away worse to each other than what unions do to companies. . I contract with facilities that are union. My greatest challenge is what my competitors do against me. Some worry about "what if the union decides to picket you"...if far far far far.. down the list of worries when you have competitors that push forth legislation that would increase my costs.. but they would get an exemption to that legislation. Or competitors that will "buy up".. physician practices to control more of the referral stream... or a myriad of other ways my competitors compete in ways other than price and quality.

These arguments are basically a diversion from the issue. Being able to identify other anticompetitive practices that are occurring does not demonstrate why we should pass laws that explicitly try to legalize anticompetitive practices that were made illegal a long time ago for completely decent reasons.

Pooh... you are still dealing out hyperbole. The only concerning part of the regulation is the getting rid of secret ballots. And that provision has come about because of EMPLOYER intimidation of employees.

That's incredibly naive. Unions are always going to allege employers did something wrong if making that allegation is in their interests. That doesn't mean they should necessarily be believed. For example, pretty much every time a union goes on strike for more money (which is inherently an economic strike), they first file at least one unfair labor practice. Why? Because the employer committed an unfair labor practice? No. Because merely alleging a ULP allows the union to declare it is conducting a ULP strike. Why do this? Because ULP strikers cannot be permanently replaced. It is extremely easy to allege an employer ULP in bargaining. They can just send a letter to the labor relations agency stating "the employer engaged in regressive bargaining and/or surface bargaining," and that's it. The ULP claim is filed, they declare the strike is ULP, thus extinguishing any risk (however remote) of any permanent replacements of the strikers.

Similarly with this, it would be extremely easy to allege "employer interference" in an election as a pretense for resorting to card-check. If I were a union organizer, I would absolutely develop an entire set of strategies and tactics aimed at intentionally provoking an employer response that I could use and construe as as "intimidation" or "coercion" or "interference," and I would do this for no other reason than to be able to resort to card-check if the election fails.

The fact is.. that there has been an assault on the right of workers to collectively bargain for that last 40 years or so.

That is not a fact. It is an extremely biased unsupported opinion. Specifically identify what "right to collectively bargain" has been assaulted and the law or regulation that assaulted it. Usually whenever any attempt is made to explain how anyone's right to be in a union has been attacked, a bunch of things are mentioned that have nothing to do with whether someone has a right to join a union or not.
 
In right to work states you make $5,000 less than in non-right to work states. I don't think those laws are beneficial. As a Trump supporter, I'm pro-union and believe in workers rights.

I am pro union and believe in workers rights

Then why would you vote.republican or be a trump supporter?
 
I made up hyperbole/absurdism as a way of challenging you to explain where you draw the line on union tactics. I don't think you're considering the history of some of these practices and the entirely sensible reasons why Taft Hartley (which the PRO Act would roll back) was passed in the first place.
.
Pooh.. you are making up hyperbole to try to make it appear that poor employers are the victims of unions. While completely ignoring the tactics that employers have and continue to use. The history of these "practices".. or pretty much non existent. Can you show me a history of unions doing abuses ANYWHERE CLOSE.. to the abuses that I can find employers doing in the past and STILL doing? I think not.

Like I said.. I don't agree with getting rid of the secret ballot because I can see the POTENTIAL for abuse. And that's about it.

Being able to identify other anticompetitive practices that are occurring does not demonstrate why we should pass laws that explicitly try to legalize anticompetitive practices that were made illegal a long time ago for completely decent reasons.
Why yes it does. Because it points out that the reality is that these "anti competitive practices".. ONE.. are not really anticompetitive practices in the grand scheme of things. Two.. the regulation you are advocating is merely to be used as a means to curtail the right of employees to collectively bargain.

Say you don't like the practices of planned parenthood? Should you be allowed to protest outside their headquarters (as long as peaceful etc)? Sure.

If you don't like the practices of dunkin donuts.. do you have the right to stand on the public way and protest them? Sure.

So whats the big deal here..if a union member from another company.. doesn't like my business and decides to protest me? Nothing.

That's incredibly naive.
That's laughable. Its you being credibly naïve. You seem to think that that union holds the power over the poor little employers. Sorry.. but the employer has and does have all sorts of tactics.. legal and illegal.. available to force concessions out of the union. If the union goes on strike.. in all likelihood, its the result of the unreasonableness of management. The person most hurt by a strike is the union and the employee. There is very little incentive for a full on strike as its economically damaging more to the employee than the employer. I don't many ceo's and board of directors have to worry about how to make their house payment during a strike... not so the working stiff.

pecifically identify what "right to collectively bargain" has been assaulted and the law or regulation that assaulted it.
Well.. start with the multiple "right to work laws"... that have been legislated in the past 40 years. With the specific intent of weakening collective bargaining. And I don't know how many states,I have seen that would outright make collective bargaining almost impossible. Some of the legislation in these bills require unions to hold an election every year to determine if they will stay union. Simply to create more havoc for the union.

The supreme court just upheld laws that unions in state and government workplaces..must represent and protect individuals.. but may not recoup the costs of that representation.. in other words.. free loaders.
 
I am pro union and believe in workers rights

Then why would you vote.republican or be a trump supporter?
Because democrats are bat sh*t crazy right now, that's why and all they are doing in the house is naming post offices and not passing meaningful legislation.
 
Pooh.. you are making up hyperbole to try to make it appear that poor employers are the victims of unions. While completely ignoring the tactics that employers have and continue to use. The history of these "practices".. or pretty much non existent. Can you show me a history of unions doing abuses ANYWHERE CLOSE.. to the abuses that I can find employers doing in the past and STILL doing? I think not.

You're just trying to divert the topic, shine the spotlight somewhere else. I don't even know what "abuses" you're specifically talking about. I mentioned several types of anticompetitive practices that the FTC regulates. Are we not doing enough? Do we need to expand the FTC's regulatory powers over these types of practices? Maybe. But that's not even your point. You're trying to distract and minimize from how bad a number of provisions of this law are.

Like I said.. I don't agree with getting rid of the secret ballot because I can see the POTENTIAL for abuse. And that's about it.

Why yes it does. Because it points out that the reality is that these "anti competitive practices".. ONE.. are not really anticompetitive practices in the grand scheme of things. Two.. the regulation you are advocating is merely to be used as a means to curtail the right of employees to collectively bargain.

Unions always allege this, even about things that have nothing to do with "the right to collectively bargain." This would be like a business whining that because it's not allowed to price-fix with competitors that the government is curtailing their right to do business. No it isn't. It's telling you that you have no right to price-fix. It's not depriving you of a right to do business. Similarly here, none of these regulations are depriving workers of any right to collectively bargain. They're telling them they don't have a right to engage in certain behaviors. Like everyone else in society who is also not allowed to engage in certain behaviors.

Say you don't like the practices of planned parenthood? Should you be allowed to protest outside their headquarters (as long as peaceful etc)? Sure.

If you don't like the practices of dunkin donuts.. do you have the right to stand on the public way and protest them? Sure.

So whats the big deal here..if a union member from another company.. doesn't like my business and decides to protest me? Nothing.

For one thing, you're arguing against decades of regulation and case law that draws a line in the sand about when it's okay and when it's not.

For another thing, you're acting like these actions are so benign, but if that were the case, how would they be effective at all? Why would unions care that they can't engage in secondary boycotts, if it were so not a big deal, like you say? The reality is that it is a big deal, because the protests do have harmful effects on the businesses that are subject to them. People feel intimidated by the thought of walking in to a business when they would have to fight through and ostensibly cross a picket line to get in. That intimidation is intended.

You seem to think that that union holds the power over the poor little employers.

That's not what I'm saying. I (just me) have pretty much zero power over, say, Wells Fargo Bank. Does that mean I should be able to vandalize their branch locations? I mean they're so much more powerful than me, that why would you protect them from little old me wanting to vandalize their branches? What if it's not vandalism but every day I go in and grab all their deposit booklets, pens, informational pamphlets and dum dum suckers and walk out with them because I don't like their business practices or how they pay their tellers. Should I be able to do that? Or what if I can convince a dozen of my friends to link arms and prevent customer entry (unless a customer is determined to physically overpower us). Should that be allowed? After all, they're WAAAYYY more powerful than I am! This is not about relative power. It's about behaviors that should be illegal across the board, for unions and companies, workers and employers, regardless of whatever supposed power balance or imbalance between them.

And by the way, those hypothetical behaviors toward Wells Fargo used as a comical example... in reality those behaviors would not be tolerated. They're not "protected speech." I can't do whatever the hell I want.
 
Last edited:
Because democrats are bat sh*t crazy right now, that's why and all they are doing in the house is naming post offices and not passing meaningful legislation.

The PRO Act, passed by House Democrats, is bat sh*t crazy. Those bat sh*t crazy Democrats are going to tell you that the law is only all about workers' rights. Are you going to be gullible and believe them?
 
Well.. start with the multiple "right to work laws"... that have been legislated in the past 40 years. With the specific intent of weakening collective bargaining.

You're perpetuating lies that unions tell. Right To Work has zero to do with the right to collectively bargain. If workers want to bargain collectively by asking a union to represent them, they can do that, and Right To Work rules do nothing to prevent that.

Some of the legislation in these bills require unions to hold an election every year to determine if they will stay union. Simply to create more havoc for the union.

An extreme majority of union-represented workers have never in their lives had an opportunity to reaffirm (or not) their desire to be represented by that union. Almost 19/20ths of union employees simply inherited that representation from a group of workers from a bygone era that voted that way. An every-year recertification election might be overkill, but what we have now is that workers virtually never ever ever have any opportunity at all whatsoever to reaffirm their desire to be represented by their current union. So maybe it shouldn't be every year, but maybe every 2, 3, or 5.

The supreme court just upheld laws that unions in state and government workplaces..must represent and protect individuals..

Nope. Directly from the Janus v. AFSCME decision:

"Nor can such fees be justified on the ground that it would otherwise be unfair to require a union to bear the duty of fair representation. That duty is a necessary concomitant of the authority that a union seeks when it chooses to serve as the exclusive representative of all the employees in a unit."

"No union is ever compelled to seek that [exclusive representative] designation."

but may not recoup the costs of that representation.. in other words.. free loaders.

It is 100% within the power of a union to not seek designation as exclusive representative, and thus its duty of fair representation would be limited to the employees who voluntarily join and pay the union.
 
Last edited:
Despite being amazingly non-sequitur, it is still wrong just like the first time you constantly throw out half-assed "facts". You need to adjust for entitlement, defense, and infrastructure spending and suddenly that gap disappears like a champ. 80% of it is simply retirees fleeing blue states upon retirement and dragging their medicare/ss with them.

What a stupid argument.... "After you adjust for everything the federal government does... that wealth transfer evaporates...."
 
Last edited:
They have passed all kind of legislation. It all goes to the Republican senate and dies. House Democrats have passed hundreds of bills. Trump and Republicans are ignoring them - Vox

Setting aside the policy analysis and just looking at politics for a second, House Democrats passed this particular piece of legislation knowing full well it would die too. It's a rallying cry bill. Pro-union bill draws 2020 battle lines - The Hill

It's being used as a litmus test for both sides. That's why you have all Democratic candidates unquestioningly pledging allegiance to this bill. On the other side, the Chamber of Commerce and other business interests are taking note of which Republicans are being soft or actually supporting this bill, and ready to use it as a club against them. For example, a small handful of Republicans in the House voted in favor. What do they get in return? Reelection. Unions agree not to fund campaigns against them. This is how Don Young (R-AK), for example, has stayed in office for the last 97 years.
 
You're just trying to divert the topic, shine the spotlight somewhere else. I don't even know what "abuses" you're specifically talking about. .
Pooh... you are the one that started the conversation off about what if the unions started kidnapping people.. because your position regarding the supposed abused by the unions is so weak.

Unions always allege this, even about things that have nothing to do with "the right to collectively bargain." This would be like a business whining that because it's not allowed to price-fix with competitors that the government is curtailing their right to do business.
They allege this because by and large.. its exactly true. and its nothing like a business trying to price fix.

Those "certain behaviors"...like being able to strike, like being able to protest outside other businesses.. is part and parcel of collective bargaining. IF an employers is not willing to come to the table to bargain in good faith under collective bargaining.. then strikes and protests are the tools that collective bargaining must have available to be effective. Your premise is like saying... "well black people had the right to vote.. as long as they could show they had property, could prove they could read.. etc." which were required under jim crow laws.

For one thing, you're arguing against decades of regulation and case law that draws a line in the sand about when it's okay and when it's not.
Nope.. I not... You are arguing that this law undoes all of the previous regulation and case law and is going to lead to some massive abuses.. which its neither does.. nor which won't happen.

For another thing, you're acting like these actions are so benign, but if that were the case, how would they be effective at all?
Because of public opinion. Businesses don't like the bad press to customers.. and don't like bad press that may make other companies not want to do business with them because they can't control their internal labor issues which makes them unreliable. BUT .. this is also a self limiting strategy on the part of the unions anyway.. anything that "really does damage to businesses".. means damage to the employees because they are the ones that get hurt the most if there is lack of long term business as a result of a strike etc.

That's not what I'm saying. I (just me) have pretty much zero power over, say, Wells Fargo Bank. Does that mean I should be able to vandalize their branch locations?

Now you a back to the hyperbole. No.. you cannot vandalize and neither can the union under this law. What you CAN do.. is protest outside their offices,, you can put up billboards about your poor experience with them.. you can start a lawsuit against them if you have been wronged.

And by the way, those hypothetical behaviors toward Wells Fargo used as a comical example... in reality those behaviors would not be tolerated. They're not "protected speech." I can't do whatever the hell I want.
And neither can a union under this law.. despite all your hyperbole.
 
You're perpetuating lies that unions tell. Right To Work has zero to do with the right to collectively bargain. If workers want to bargain collectively by asking a union to represent them, they can do that, and Right To Work rules do nothing to prevent that.

.

Bwaaaaahhh...…..that's funny. I am an employer in a right to work state. I know exactly how right to work states prevent unionization. I can hire and fire pretty much "at will"... (except for racial discrimination or whistleblowing or refusing to do something illegal)..

So.. Bob? My best employee? I hear a rumor that he has talked to a union rep? I fire him. Done. And there is nothing that can be done because I can hire and fire at will.

So don't tell me that right to work doesn't mean anything for collective bargaining.

A
n extreme majority of union-represented workers have never in their lives had an opportunity to reaffirm (or not) their desire to be represented by that union
It should be up to the employees whether they need to hold a vote or not.. not up to an outside entity.

Yep... because the very nature of collective bargaining.. compels unions to seek exclusive representation.

Hence its collective "collective bargaining"... That's why there is an election for becoming a union. And the MAJORITY decides whether its union or not.

It its not collective bargaining when the union doesn't represent the workers.. duh.

That opinion is from some asanine judges that don't understand the nature of collective bargaining. Basically their argument is.. "well you aren't compelled to collectively bargain.. so then you have to represent these freeloaders".

It is 100% within the power of a union to not seek designation as exclusive representative, and thus its duty of fair representation would be limited to the employees who voluntarily join and pay the union.
Right.. completely negating the reason for having a union!!!!

So.. the argument is.. well you can choose to have a union and collectively bargain for the workers.... or you can still have a union but not collectively bargain for the workers...which negates the reason for a union.

Dude.. I am an employer... in no way am I bargaining with a union that only represents say 50% or less of workers. I can deal with finding replacements for them.

Represent 100% of workers and now I have to listen. The idea that "its their choice"... is pure bunk because without that exclusive representation, the union becomes moot.
 
Bwaaaaahhh...…..that's funny. I am an employer in a right to work state. I know exactly how right to work states prevent unionization. I can hire and fire pretty much "at will"... (except for racial discrimination or whistleblowing or refusing to do something illegal)..

So.. Bob? My best employee? I hear a rumor that he has talked to a union rep? I fire him. Done. And there is nothing that can be done because I can hire and fire at will.

So don't tell me that right to work doesn't mean anything for collective bargaining.
You don't know what Right To Work means. It has nothing to do with at-will employment.
Yep... because the very nature of collective bargaining.. compels unions to seek exclusive representation.

Hence its collective "collective bargaining"... That's why there is an election for becoming a union. And the MAJORITY decides whether its union or not.

It its not collective bargaining when the union doesn't represent the workers.. duh.
No federal law prohibits unions from being members-only if they want to be. "The nature of collective bargaining compels exclusive representation?" No, it doesn't. A members-only union can collectively bargain.
That opinion is from some asanine judges that don't understand the nature of collective bargaining. Basically their argument is.. "well you aren't compelled to collectively bargain.. so then you have to represent these freeloaders".
You're conflating collective bargaining with exclusive representation. They are not the same thing.
Right.. completely negating the reason for having a union!!!!

So.. the argument is.. well you can choose to have a union and collectively bargain for the workers.... or you can still have a union but not collectively bargain for the workers...which negates the reason for a union.
In a members-only union (which does not seek designation as exclusive representative), the union's bargaining unit is only comprised of those who opt in to union membership and pay dues. Someone who opts out and refuses to pay gets no representation or protection from the union and the union has no fair representation duties over that non-payer.

I posted a link several posts back (Labor at a Crossroads: In Defense of Members-Only Unionism - The American Prospect) that explores this whole thing in depth. Does exclusive representation confer special benefits/privileges to the union? Yes. That's why they almost always prefer exclusive representation even if it means having to represent the "freeloaders." Does that mean collective bargaining and exclusive representation are one and the same thing? No. Members-only unionism is legal and can exist. It just isn't preferred by most unions currently. Most unions would rather have the benefits of exclusivity even if it means fairly representing the "freeloaders" the union insists upon exclusively representing. Read the link.
 
Last edited:
You don't know what Right To Work means. It has nothing to do with at-will employment.

.
Oh yes it does.. among a whole host of other things. Look man.. I own businesses in both right to work and in states without right to work laws. I know a heck of a lot more about the subject than you do. You ever prevented a union from coming into your business? I have. So lets stop the BS.

No federal law prohibits unions from being members-only if they want to be. "The nature of collective bargaining compels exclusive representation?" No, it doesn't. A members-only union can collectively bargain.
Bull crap they can... are you really going to tell me that say a union that has 5 members in it in a shop with 300 employees is going to be able to collectively bargain for those 5 workers.. or are they going to be told to pound sand.

Stop with the bullcrap. Its getting tiring.

Y
ou're conflating collective bargaining with exclusive representation. They are not the same thing.
Wrong.. in practical, real world terms it IS the same thing.

Oh sure.. you can say "well just members only can bargain collectively"... but anyone who understands the real world knows that if a union has 30 members in a 120 employee shop.. they are going to be told to pound sand.. no matter how much "they can collectively bargain".

IF NOT.. why is it that unions will tolerate free loaders to be exclusive? Its because without full representation.. the ability to collectively bargain goes down to just below nil.

Most unions would rather have the benefits of exclusivity even if it means fairly representing the "freeloaders" the union insists upon exclusively representing. Read the link.
Sheesh... see above.
 
Oh yes it does.. among a whole host of other things. Look man.. I own businesses in both right to work and in states without right to work laws. I know a heck of a lot more about the subject than you do. You ever prevented a union from coming into your business? I have. So lets stop the BS.

Your ownership of a business does not demonstrate that you to know what a Right To Work law is. To demonstrate that you know what a Right To Work law is, you'd have to state things about it that are true and correct, which you are not doing. A Right To Work law is a law that says union security clauses (requiring all bargaining unit employees to pay either dues or agency fees) in contracts between employers and unions are illegal. That's it. Right To Work is not about at-will employment. If a state passes a different law that has to do with at-will employment, then that's what it did, but that's a different law.

Bull crap they can... are you really going to tell me that say a union that has 5 members in it in a shop with 300 employees is going to be able to collectively bargain for those 5 workers.. or are they going to be told to pound sand.

I don't know, but you haven't read the link about members-only unionism, because you're balking at the notion that it can exist despite the fact that it does exist. Read this link, or this one, or this one.

There is no real reason for such protests against members-only unionism. Does it have downsides for unions? Yes. Potential for division/competition between micro-unions can get messy, and somewhat less bargaining leverage can be a downside. Does exclusive representation have downsides for unions? Yes. They have to try to appease dissenters, try to minimize the ability of dissenters to exercise their rights to organize recertification/decertification elections, and of course, the one we always hear about -- duty of fair representation is owed to "freeloaders." Which downsides are worse? Currently most unions say the downsides of members-only are worse than the downsides of exclusive representation.

Oh sure.. you can say "well just members only can bargain collectively"... but anyone who understands the real world knows that if a union has 30 members in a 120 employee shop.. they are going to be told to pound sand.. no matter how much "they can collectively bargain".

IF NOT.. why is it that unions will tolerate free loaders to be exclusive? Its because without full representation.. the ability to collectively bargain goes down to just below nil.

Sheesh... see above.

See my links. The AFT has 120,000 members in members-only unions across several states. UAW Local 42 formed a members-only unit after the failed Chattanooga vote. A variety of private and public sector unions have operated members-only bargaining units for years.
 
I am a specialized and highly educated and skilled employee. Representation would help me by increasing my ability to negotiate a better salary and job security. It's as simple as that.

So get you a head hunter. They will get you want, for far less than a union, because they are paid by the employer looking for the skilled employee.
 
Again, they are partisan bills in the house. Pelosi never considers the minority parties input and that's a problem if you want legislation to pass the senate. She runs the house like a dictatorship.

Are you honestly going to say with a straight face that when the Republicans ran the house, they considered the minority party's input?

There is nothing she could do to get McConnell to allow any substantive Democratic bills through the senate.
 
Are you honestly going to say with a straight face that when the Republicans ran the house, they considered the minority party's input?

There is nothing she could do to get McConnell to allow any substantive Democratic bills through the senate.
And I don't blame McConnell, because he knows no republican input was considered in the house.
 
And I don't blame McConnell, because he knows no republican input was considered in the house.
I assume you know politics 101, but while dems have the majority of the districts in the house, the GOP represents 196 of them, are you saying their constituents don't deserve any input? It's what happened when Obamacare with NO republican support and you wonder why their constituents were angry in 2010 and voted dems out of the majority. Their needs to be rules in the house to give the minority party a say. I say a filibuster system in the house.
 
So get you a head hunter. They will get you want, for far less than a union, because they are paid by the employer looking for the skilled employee.

Doesn't work quite like that here unless I want to move to another state. I don't at this point.
 
Doesn't work quite like that here unless I want to move to another state. I don't at this point.

Therein lies your problem. I have a family member who is a very good headhunter and gets paid confiscatory fees, getting confiscatory fees for the skilled contractors and employees from the would be employer.
 
Therein lies your problem. I have a family member who is a very good headhunter and gets paid confiscatory fees, getting confiscatory fees for the skilled contractors and employees from the would be employer.

I get headhunter calls from time to time, and could request a country transfer. It isn't worth leaving the elderly part of our family.
 
Back
Top Bottom