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Right to repair

CLAX1911

CLAX1911

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I'm a freelance mechanic, that's been working on various things for about 20 years.

As a freelance mechanic I can pick and choose what I work on. Something I've noticed with automobiles are the German automobiles have sometimes punitively high parts replacement costs. Which of course cuts into my profit. So I just don't work on them. I figured the high costs were due to import prices.

So something I've stumbled upon while I was surfing the internet was this article about Farmers buying old tractors driving up the price. And it turns out they're paying 40 to $60,000 for tractors that are over two decades old because the new ones have been designed to where you can't repair them. Either they have some sort of software gateway or they have some form proprietary barrier, forcing you to go through the manufacturer.

Sometimes the manufacturers charge five figures for repairs.

So it got me thinking about right to repair and apparently this is a thing. I was watching a video from a guy who does repairs on cellular phones and computers and he was talking about Apple products. I had an iPod years ago and I was having a little difficulty with its function end basically Apple told me I have to replace it. After spending $300 on it and having it for just over a year. I was done with the product at that point. But apparently things have gotten worse.

So back to right to repair, and what this means. It is essentially legislation that forbids manufacturers from putting on needlessly complicated gateways and proprietary barriers for repairs. Is this a form of Monopoly? Is this a form of antitrust?

I'm not sure this seems to be new territory.

What are your thoughts?

Farmers Are Buying Up Old Tractors Because New Ones Are Pointlessly Complicated and Expensive - The Drive
 
It's the same thing with today's cars. Once you go over 100,000 miles, they fall apart. They even have a name for it, planned obsolescence.
There are SO many electronic parts in today's cars that they are going to fail sooner rather than later. You mention European cars. have you looked at a BMW lately?
Plastic everywhere, and that's under the hood.

Unfortunately, modern corporations have turned so greedy that I don't know what the answer is. Somehow, we have to end the unbridled greed that is running amuck and ruining our society.
 
gino said:
It's the same thing with today's cars. Once you go over 100,000 miles, they fall apart. They even have a name for it, planned obsolescence.
There are SO many electronic parts in today's cars that they are going to fail sooner rather than later. You mention European cars. have you looked at a BMW lately?
Plastic everywhere, and that's under the hood.

Unfortunately, modern corporations have turned so greedy that I don't know what the answer is. Somehow, we have to end the unbridled greed that is running amuck and ruining our society.
Click to expand...

You must buy the wrong cars.

140,000 on a Nissan Maxima when we sold it. 130,000 on a Hyundai Accent when the clutch finally failed. Toyota Camrys regularly reach 200,000 miles and beyond.

25 Cars That Can Take You to 300,000 Miles
25 Cars That Can Take You to 300,000 Miles
 
Fledermaus said:
You must buy the wrong cars.

140,000 on a Nissan Maxima when we sold it. 130,000 on a Hyundai Accent when the clutch finally failed. Toyota Camrys regularly reach 200,000 miles and beyond.

25 Cars That Can Take You to 300,000 Miles
25 Cars That Can Take You to 300,000 Miles
Click to expand...



I wrenched on and off for most of my career. I also wrote service, sold parts and was a business owner. When I was just beginning US cars were just starting to decline. Gas was starting to go up and the Japanese were eating our automotive lunch. The first foray into both computer controlled ignition and FWD were engineering embarrassments. If you turned your back on an idling car, you were liable to have the coolant boil over. In the late seventies, 100k was something to achieve. Now, Fled has pointed out, 100k is just getting the car broken in.

Many years ago, a customer’s Nissan with over 200K miles broke one of the timing chains. There are two chains because the cam and crank aren’t in-line. The four cylinder is also and interference engine. Most of the valves had made contact with the pistons and needed replacing. We were basically looking at a major overhaul. The cam uses machined parts of the cylinder head instead of half-shell bearing inserts. There was no visible wear to the camshaft or the head. In addition there was no ridge in the cylinders. Nothing to hang a fingernail on. My only complaint was that Nissan sold each part individually, instead of a kit with all the pieces need for the timing chain job.

If you pay minimal attention to the maintenance requirements, sky’s the limit, IMO.
 
Rexedgar said:
I wrenched on and off for most of my career. I also wrote service, sold parts and was a business owner. When I was just beginning US cars were just starting to decline. Gas was starting to go up and the Japanese were eating our automotive lunch. The first foray into both computer controlled ignition and FWD were engineering embarrassments. If you turned your back on an idling car, you were liable to have the coolant boil over. In the late seventies, 100k was something to achieve. Now, Fled has pointed out, 100k is just getting the car broken in.

Many years ago, a customer’s Nissan with over 200K miles broke one of the timing chains. There are two chains because the cam and crank aren’t in-line. The four cylinder is also and interference engine. Most of the valves had made contact with the pistons and needed replacing. We were basically looking at a major overhaul. The cam uses machined parts of the cylinder head instead of half-shell bearing inserts. There was no visible wear to the camshaft or the head. In addition there was no ridge in the cylinders. Nothing to hang a fingernail on. My only complaint was that Nissan sold each part individually, instead of a kit with all the pieces need for the timing chain job.

If you pay minimal attention to the maintenance requirements, sky’s the limit, IMO.
Click to expand...

I had a 1990 Jaguar XJ-S.

Professionally maintained through 60,000 miles. This was a true "old school" car. The crankcase held 12 quart of oil. The crank actually sat in the oil. Why? The stock oil pumps were crap. The engine would routinely boil over to the point we couldn't even complete an emission test. If the car stopped running for any reason it was a good idea to pop the hood and let it cool. If you didn't it ran the chance of dropping a valve seat. The list goes on and on.
 
While I agree with you, the reason why such legislation will never pass is due to profit.

Corporations will lobby, easily, against this. They will call you a socialist if they have to. But even if the legislation should, by some miracle, pass...they will simply price up any parts or services to make up the profit. And if you try to fight that...again the rallying cry that you are against capitalism and 'Murica because you are a socialist and wish to impede on your fellow 'Muricans' right to make a profit.

We both know that's bull, but that is how it will go down.
 
Fledermaus said:
I had a 1990 Jaguar XJ-S.

Professionally maintained through 60,000 miles. This was a true "old school" car. The crankcase held 12 quart of oil. The crank actually sat in the oil. Why? The stock oil pumps were crap. The engine would routinely boil over to the point we couldn't even complete an emission test. If the car stopped running for any reason it was a good idea to pop the hood and let it cool. If you didn't it ran the chance of dropping a valve seat. The list goes on and on.
Click to expand...

I started my first shop in 1980. I had maybe 3 years of dealership/independent shop experience. One day a doctor found his way to the shop. He said he had an XKE that needed valve cover gaskets. Was this the type of work that I did? Yes, sir, three bags full, said I. I can imagine my face when I opened the bonnet and saw that immense V-12!

Another customer asked, do you work on Subarus? Hell yes we do, I had never heard of a Subaru.

Another WW2 Marine flyer brought home a Datsun 1600 from Japan. It was only sold here when it became the 2000, a smart looking two seat convertible. The WW2 vet was named Jack Maas, said he knew Pappy Boyington, he passed away a bunch of years ago.
 
Jason Warfield said:
While I agree with you, the reason why such legislation will never pass is due to profit.

Corporations will lobby, easily, against this. They will call you a socialist if they have to. But even if the legislation should, by some miracle, pass...they will simply price up any parts or services to make up the profit. And if you try to fight that...again the rallying cry that you are against capitalism and 'Murica because you are a socialist and wish to impede on your fellow 'Muricans' right to make a profit.

We both know that's bull, but that is how it will go down.
Click to expand...



See OBD II.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I'm a freelance mechanic, that's been working on various things for about 20 years.

As a freelance mechanic I can pick and choose what I work on. Something I've noticed with automobiles are the German automobiles have sometimes punitively high parts replacement costs. Which of course cuts into my profit. So I just don't work on them. I figured the high costs were due to import prices.

So something I've stumbled upon while I was surfing the internet was this article about Farmers buying old tractors driving up the price. And it turns out they're paying 40 to $60,000 for tractors that are over two decades old because the new ones have been designed to where you can't repair them. Either they have some sort of software gateway or they have some form proprietary barrier, forcing you to go through the manufacturer.

Sometimes the manufacturers charge five figures for repairs.

So it got me thinking about right to repair and apparently this is a thing. I was watching a video from a guy who does repairs on cellular phones and computers and he was talking about Apple products. I had an iPod years ago and I was having a little difficulty with its function end basically Apple told me I have to replace it. After spending $300 on it and having it for just over a year. I was done with the product at that point. But apparently things have gotten worse.

So back to right to repair, and what this means. It is essentially legislation that forbids manufacturers from putting on needlessly complicated gateways and proprietary barriers for repairs. Is this a form of Monopoly? Is this a form of antitrust?

I'm not sure this seems to be new territory.

What are your thoughts?

Farmers Are Buying Up Old Tractors Because New Ones Are Pointlessly Complicated and Expensive - The Drive
Click to expand...

Clax1911:

These barriers to repair are de facto restraint of trade (services) and are just one tool in the box which big players use to drive markets to either oligopoly, monopolistic competition or rarely outfight monopoly. Asking the government to do something about such behaviour is likely going to be futile since governments are more beholden large corporate donors than to average citizens and because such forced obsolescence and barriers to repair force consumers to buy new goods which bolsters an ever-degrading manufacturing sector in America.

Rather than depending solely on government, US and global consumers should boycott, divest and sanction firms which use such anti-competitive practices. The modern information environment makes organising grass-roots resistence to such behaviours far easier than in the past. All consumers have to do is talk to each other and be prepared to do without certain products for a short time. Drops in demand will discipline the offending manufactures far more efficiently than any government legislation will likely do.

If that doesn't work, consumers should consider non-violent direct action against offending firms.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
CLAX1911 said:
So something I've stumbled upon while I was surfing the internet was this article about Farmers buying old tractors driving up the price. And it turns out they're paying 40 to $60,000 for tractors that are over two decades old because the new ones have been designed to where you can't repair them. Either they have some sort of software gateway or they have some form proprietary barrier, forcing you to go through the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Most rotary air compressor companies do this now, too.

When the computer advises you it's time for maintenance, you have a certain amount of run time before it shuts down. To reset the computer, you do the maintenance and then swipe a card through the computer. The card is only available to authorized dealers.

So you can't just change the air filter, you have to pay someone to do it.
 
gino said:
It's the same thing with today's cars. Once you go over 100,000 miles, they fall apart. They even have a name for it, planned obsolescence.
There are SO many electronic parts in today's cars that they are going to fail sooner rather than later. You mention European cars. have you looked at a BMW lately?
Plastic everywhere, and that's under the hood.

Unfortunately, modern corporations have turned so greedy that I don't know what the answer is. Somehow, we have to end the unbridled greed that is running amuck and ruining our society.
Click to expand...
The only cars I know that are like that are Rolls-Royce and Tesla. Rolls-Royce will tell you upfront that you'll have to bring it to them for service.

Tesla nobody knows how to work on that, and I imagine with those type of cars you're going to have to be certified to work on those particular type of cars if they ever get to that point. as it stands now if it has a major failing component the best thing to do is just take it to the junkyard and by something a little less ridiculous. Where you sell it to someone who salvages Tesla cars.

But electronic components on a car that you can buy at a parts store, and have all sorts of different aftermarket manufacturers, that isn't what I'm talking about. also you can get a tool that talks to the computers on Amazon for a hundred bucks. You can get a almost professional grade one on Amazon for a couple hundred bucks.

So no that's not really the thing I'm talking about.
 
Fledermaus said:
You must buy the wrong cars.

140,000 on a Nissan Maxima when we sold it. 130,000 on a Hyundai Accent when the clutch finally failed. Toyota Camrys regularly reach 200,000 miles and beyond.

25 Cars That Can Take You to 300,000 Miles
25 Cars That Can Take You to 300,000 Miles
Click to expand...

There are certainly cars that have a very short life before they need repairs. And it's kind of counterintuitive which ones are which.

Most Toyotas are Dynamite cars. I would go with the Ford full-size pickup over the Toyota but Toyota is still really good. The small pickup there's nothing better than a Toyota.

The new Supra is actually a BMW so it is very unreliable.
 
Fledermaus said:
I had a 1990 Jaguar XJ-S.

Professionally maintained through 60,000 miles. This was a true "old school" car. The crankcase held 12 quart of oil. The crank actually sat in the oil. Why? The stock oil pumps were crap. The engine would routinely boil over to the point we couldn't even complete an emission test. If the car stopped running for any reason it was a good idea to pop the hood and let it cool. If you didn't it ran the chance of dropping a valve seat. The list goes on and on.
Click to expand...

Jags and Land rovers are notoriously unreliable cars. If you wanted decent when you have to go back to before the sixties.
 
Jason Warfield said:
While I agree with you, the reason why such legislation will never pass is due to profit.

Corporations will lobby, easily, against this. They will call you a socialist if they have to. But even if the legislation should, by some miracle, pass...they will simply price up any parts or services to make up the profit. And if you try to fight that...again the rallying cry that you are against capitalism and 'Murica because you are a socialist and wish to impede on your fellow 'Muricans' right to make a profit.

We both know that's bull, but that is how it will go down.
Click to expand...
Once parts are available they can be made after market.

I've already been called a commie and a hypocrite with regard to this subject on another forum. But this is typically by people who don't understand what I'm discussing.

I actually heard from another libertarian about it and he said that it was fraud by device or trick and I like to that description.
 
Evilroddy said:
Clax1911:

These barriers to repair are de facto restraint of trade (services) and are just one tool in the box which big players use to drive markets to either oligopoly, monopolistic competition or rarely outfight monopoly. Asking the government to do something about such behaviour is likely going to be futile since governments are more beholden large corporate donors than to average citizens and because such forced obsolescence and barriers to repair force consumers to buy new goods which bolsters an ever-degrading manufacturing sector in America.

Rather than depending solely on government, US and global consumers should boycott, divest and sanction firms which use such anti-competitive practices. The modern information environment makes organising grass-roots resistence to such behaviours far easier than in the past. All consumers have to do is talk to each other and be prepared to do without certain products for a short time. Drops in demand will discipline the offending manufactures far more efficiently than any government legislation will likely do.

If that doesn't work, consumers should consider non-violent direct action against offending firms.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

One of the companies that's the most notorious for this is Apple. I got burned by their service years ago, I wanted my iPod fixed. I called their service center set on hold for 4 hours and they basically told me that I had to replace it. I found somebody that said they worked on them and he looked it over and pointed out it was a software setting.

People buy Apple products even after they've been burned by this so, nobody's going to boycott these products. And it doesn't do anything to help anybody who got suckered into buying this money trap.

It's one thing if it's a $2,000 computer or a $1,400 phone (I find those prices obscene) but a farmer who has borrowed against this house get a piece of equipment that he needs for 150k. And two months after buying it it goes into limp mode and he has to wait 5 days for a repair technician to come out there plug in the computer and click a box for it to work again, and then pay them 20k to do that is a bigger issue.

The only comparisons I can draw to this would be so absurd it would almost be a joke.
 
Hamish Howl said:
Most rotary air compressor companies do this now, too.

When the computer advises you it's time for maintenance, you have a certain amount of run time before it shuts down. To reset the computer, you do the maintenance and then swipe a card through the computer. The card is only available to authorized dealers.

So you can't just change the air filter, you have to pay someone to do it.
Click to expand...

I wonder how much profit that would be in making some replacement operating software. You might have to change a little bit of electronic hardware but they components can't be that difficult.

I ran into this with an old radio I took out of my suburban. I tried to give it to a friend of mine who had a radio on her car that Didn't work. It was just a factory piece of crap. Not the sort of thing anyone would break into a car to steal. And it was locked out. I called the Chevy and asked them if I could unlock it and they said no I have to bring it into the Chevy dealership and pay them $150 to punch in a code. Or I could purchase a new one for $175.

I can understand paying $15 to have them unlock the radio. I don't work for free. But this was an effort to try and make me just replace it. Because they wanted the money for the replacement.

So I bought her a $70 aftermarket radio that was leaps and bounds above.
 
Rexedgar said:
See OBD II.
Click to expand...

OBD2 isn't proprietary. You can buy scanners online that can run a diagnostic check on your car for a hundred bucks.

I have one I bought on Amazon for 90 bucks. I Bluetooth it to my cell phone. I can see all diagnostic code I want. You can too. At the time on board diagnostics came out, it was cutting edge, the tool to scan those was about $3,000. But snap-on sold it, not the car manufacturer. So if you had 3K to spend on that you can do thosw diagnostics.
 
Fledermaus said:
You must buy the wrong cars.

140,000 on a Nissan Maxima when we sold it. 130,000 on a Hyundai Accent when the clutch finally failed. Toyota Camrys regularly reach 200,000 miles and beyond.

25 Cars That Can Take You to 300,000 Miles
25 Cars That Can Take You to 300,000 Miles
Click to expand...

I have 111,000 on my 2012 Highlander. Just paid $686 for front brakes & rotors, oil change, tire rotation, air filter, battery cleaning at the dealer. Probably high but its in good condition.
 
Rexedgar said:
I started my first shop in 1980. I had maybe 3 years of dealership/independent shop experience. One day a doctor found his way to the shop. He said he had an XKE that needed valve cover gaskets. Was this the type of work that I did? Yes, sir, three bags full, said I. I can imagine my face when I opened the bonnet and saw that immense V-12!

Another customer asked, do you work on Subarus? Hell yes we do, I had never heard of a Subaru.

Another WW2 Marine flyer brought home a Datsun 1600 from Japan. It was only sold here when it became the 2000, a smart looking two seat convertible. The WW2 vet was named Jack Maas, said he knew Pappy Boyington, he passed away a bunch of years ago.
Click to expand...
The strangest thing I worked on was a tractor called a Yanmar. This is a product only sold in Japan but that farmers are buying second-hand here and importing. Since it doesn't operate on a road doesn't have to meet any kind of standards.

The funny thing about this was it was made for Japanese market, everything on the tractor was Japanese. So I really had no idea how to operate it. I had to have the customer explained it to me who also didn't understand Japanese. He had to figure out out through trial and error.

It had a misfire in a 3 cyl engine so it was shaking it apart.

But After figuring out how to operate it I was able to do a repair because the parts were generic. I have to admire the Japanese for that. They purposefully made that thing not complicated. You can fix it with parts you found at home Depot.

There are no dealerships in the US for this product there are no parts counters. The repair manuals are in Japanese.

But if you need a light-duty tractor I suggest finding one of those.
 
CLAX1911 said:
OBD2 isn't proprietary. You can buy scanners online that can run a diagnostic check on your car for a hundred bucks.

I have one I bought on Amazon for 90 bucks. I Bluetooth it to my cell phone. I can see all diagnostic code I want. You can too. At the time on board diagnostics came out, it was cutting edge, the tool to scan those was about $3,000. But snap-on sold it, not the car manufacturer. So if you had 3K to spend on that you can do thosw diagnostics.
Click to expand...


For the basic driver the trouble code won’t tell them much. Years ago there was a mechanics web-site that you had to log on to. If you didn’t participate and only tried to get fixes while not helping with your own experiences, they would restrict access. Now you can enter a diagnostic code and the internet will spill forth with fixes, There are also specific brand forums.

My brother tried to get me to do the mobile mechanic thing years ago. I thought long and hard and it just didn’t work for me. Going to a customer’s house or job and trying to fix the car just had too many drawbacks.....


...and then there are the specialty tools.......
 
Hari Seldon said:
I have 111,000 on my 2012 Highlander. Just paid $686 for front brakes & rotors, oil change, tire rotation, air filter, battery cleaning at the dealer. Probably high but its in good condition.
Click to expand...

Not too bad especially if it was four-wheel brakes. I wouldn't say unless it's an all wheel drive don't bother rotating tires. If it's an all wheel drive you have to.

Highlanders are pretty solid cars excellent resale value to.
 
CLAX1911 said:
The strangest thing I worked on was a tractor called a Yanmar. This is a product only sold in Japan but that farmers are buying second-hand here and importing. Since it doesn't operate on a road doesn't have to meet any kind of standards.

The funny thing about this was it was made for Japanese market, everything on the tractor was Japanese. So I really had no idea how to operate it. I had to have the customer explained it to me who also didn't understand Japanese. He had to figure out out through trial and error.

It had a misfire in a 3 cyl engine so it was shaking it apart.

But After figuring out how to operate it I was able to do a repair because the parts were generic. I have to admire the Japanese for that. They purposefully made that thing not complicated. You can fix it with parts you found at home Depot.

There are no dealerships in the US for this product there are no parts counters. The repair manuals are in Japanese.

But if you need a light-duty tractor I suggest finding one of those.
Click to expand...


I thought I recognized YANMAR. They are big in marine engines.

Marine Engines | Yanmar USA
 
Rexedgar said:
For the basic driver the trouble code won’t tell them much. Years ago there was a mechanics web-site that you had to log on to. If you didn’t participate and only tried to get fixes while not helping with your own experiences, they would restrict access. Now you can enter a diagnostic code and the internet will spill forth with fixes, There are also specific brand forums.

My brother tried to get me to do the mobile mechanic thing years ago. I thought long and hard and it just didn’t work for me. Going to a customer’s house or job and trying to fix the car just had too many drawbacks.....


...and then there are the specialty tools.......
Click to expand...
I remember when I first started the shop I worked for didn't buy an OBD scan tool. But we did have a code book that was also made by snap-on. It wouldn't tell you what was wrong it would just tell you what component was making the code. You would have to run some diagnostics but I was a mechanic that's what I got paid for.

The only thing I do on site jobs for is equipment or generators. I don't have a facility that can accommodate a d6 dozer and of course generators are typically stationary.

I explain that I make a diagnostic call and then a repair call. Depending on how far away it is it will take me two days. That's typically faster than manufacturer or the rental company.

I can't pass it up because it's the money is too good.
 
Rexedgar said:
I thought I recognized YANMAR. They are big in marine engines.

Marine Engines | Yanmar USA
Click to expand...

I am really completely unskilled as far as Marine goes. So I had no idea about that.

The only Marine workout ever done is on an inboard engine that was already removed from the boat. Or perhaps a clone. 350 parts fit it. Odd though, no timing chain. The cam and the crank ran opposite directions to one another and they were simply geared to each other. So I'm not sure if it was a Chevy product or not.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Not too bad especially if it was four-wheel brakes. I wouldn't say unless it's an all wheel drive don't bother rotating tires. If it's an all wheel drive you have to.

Highlanders are pretty solid cars excellent resale value to.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I always feel I'm getting hosed at the dealer but I like to bring it in every so often. Its all wheel drive and I saw the battery had some corrosion on top but they said it only needed a cleaning. Still very happy with the purchase around 9 years ago. I traded in a 2007 RAV4 with 115,000 for the Highlander and they gave me a credit of $9,500. It was burning oil and I really beat it up commuting but also very happy with it and the resale. Don't buy an Altima, replaced the CVT at 86,000 plus there is always a problem. Never again. Funny thing my wife got a 2018 Subaru Legacy with the CVT and they already sent us a notice the warranty was increased to 100,000 miles. Under 30k and driving fine so far, no issues. If I trade in my Highlander what do you suggest? Looking for something cheaper, better gas mileage. The new RAV4 or Subaru Outback (pricey) or Forrester are on my list. TIA
 
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