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Right to repair

Hari Seldon said:
Thank you, I always feel I'm getting hosed at the dealer but I like to bring it in every so often. Its all wheel drive and I saw the battery had some corrosion on top but they said it only needed a cleaning. Still very happy with the purchase around 9 years ago. I traded in a 2007 RAV4 with 115,000 for the Highlander and they gave me a credit of $9,500. It was burning oil and I really beat it up commuting but also very happy with it and the resale. Don't buy an Altima, replaced the CVT at 86,000 plus there is always a problem. Never again. Funny thing my wife got a 2018 Subaru Legacy with the CVT and they already sent us a notice the warranty was increased to 100,000 miles. Under 30k and driving fine so far, no issues. If I trade in my Highlander what do you suggest? Looking for something cheaper, better gas mileage. The new RAV4 or Subaru Outback (pricey) or Forrester are on my list. TIA
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When you go to the dealership, you do pay a premium. Whether or not that's a rip-off is whether or not u-value what you're paying for. Something about a dealership is the see one kind of car a whole lot, tell me the diagnostics and repairs are not often met with surprise.

I'm not going to fault people for taking their cars to the dealership I do it very rarely but then again I'm a mechanic.

I want to say it was around 2010 Nissan merged with Renalt. Their quality suffered in the 80-90s they made cars right next to Toyota in quality. I heard they are going to dissolve that relationship. I think this is a good move for them.

As far as CVT transmissions go I'm sad to see that's probably the future. They're easy to manufacture and there better for environmental reasons on paper.

That being said Toyota makes a solid CVT.
 
Hari Seldon said:
Thank you, I always feel I'm getting hosed at the dealer but I like to bring it in every so often. Its all wheel drive and I saw the battery had some corrosion on top but they said it only needed a cleaning. Still very happy with the purchase around 9 years ago. I traded in a 2007 RAV4 with 115,000 for the Highlander and they gave me a credit of $9,500. It was burning oil and I really beat it up commuting but also very happy with it and the resale. Don't buy an Altima, replaced the CVT at 86,000 plus there is always a problem. Never again. Funny thing my wife got a 2018 Subaru Legacy with the CVT and they already sent us a notice the warranty was increased to 100,000 miles. Under 30k and driving fine so far, no issues. If I trade in my Highlander what do you suggest? Looking for something cheaper, better gas mileage. The new RAV4 or Subaru Outback (pricey) or Forrester are on my list. TIA
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Nothing wrong with Honda, imo.
 
CLAX1911 said:
When you go to the dealership, you do pay a premium. Whether or not that's a rip-off is whether or not u-value what you're paying for. Something about a dealership is the see one kind of car a whole lot, tell me the diagnostics and repairs are not often met with surprise.

I'm not going to fault people for taking their cars to the dealership I do it very rarely but then again I'm a mechanic.

I want to say it was around 2010 Nissan merged with Renalt. Their quality suffered in the 80-90s they made cars right next to Toyota in quality. I heard they are going to dissolve that relationship. I think this is a good move for them.

As far as CVT transmissions go I'm sad to see that's probably the future. They're easy to manufacture and there better for environmental reasons on paper.

That being said Toyota makes a solid CVT.
Click to expand...

Thanks again, I am leaning toward another Toyota. My 1999 Altima got 179,000 miles before I donated it. Too much work needed, I commuted with it over the TZ Bridge for quite a while. Its why I thought the 2013 we got for my wife would be good. Its now my daughters but is a piece of dreck. How about Honda? My son drives a 2012 CRV we bought used. So far so good. I like the new ones.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I'm a freelance mechanic, that's been working on various things for about 20 years.

As a freelance mechanic I can pick and choose what I work on. Something I've noticed with automobiles are the German automobiles have sometimes punitively high parts replacement costs. Which of course cuts into my profit. So I just don't work on them. I figured the high costs were due to import prices.

So something I've stumbled upon while I was surfing the internet was this article about Farmers buying old tractors driving up the price. And it turns out they're paying 40 to $60,000 for tractors that are over two decades old because the new ones have been designed to where you can't repair them. Either they have some sort of software gateway or they have some form proprietary barrier, forcing you to go through the manufacturer.

Sometimes the manufacturers charge five figures for repairs.

So it got me thinking about right to repair and apparently this is a thing. I was watching a video from a guy who does repairs on cellular phones and computers and he was talking about Apple products. I had an iPod years ago and I was having a little difficulty with its function end basically Apple told me I have to replace it. After spending $300 on it and having it for just over a year. I was done with the product at that point. But apparently things have gotten worse.

So back to right to repair, and what this means. It is essentially legislation that forbids manufacturers from putting on needlessly complicated gateways and proprietary barriers for repairs. Is this a form of Monopoly? Is this a form of antitrust?

I'm not sure this seems to be new territory.

What are your thoughts?

Farmers Are Buying Up Old Tractors Because New Ones Are Pointlessly Complicated and Expensive - The Drive
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With farm equipment, it will move toward no right to tinker with the software but you can do more physical repairs like replace parts. Part of it is that the higher end models are becoming increasing electronic and are heading in the full automation direction. They don't want you in the software because you can screw it up and states like California that are super virtue signaler do not want you to be able to change the government approved emissions.
 
Being absurdly computer controlled, virtually no car made now can even possibly be a running collectible a few decades from now. Companies claim their software is proprietary and only have to make parts available for a few years.

I recall when Mercedes released a car with a infinitely variable speed transmission. They proved very weak. However, when the deadline to have to make parts available by law ran out, any of those cars transmissions broke they were salvage value only. It's not like long ago when transmission was bolted to the back of a motor.

A boat I have, 12 years old, The manufacturer - still in business - provides no parts for them and all their dealers refuse to even look at them. To work on it requires used parts and a shade tree mechanic (who at least can do it.)

Being proprietary, the cost of replacement computers - I have one car with dozens - can cost thousands of dollars. When the A/C stopped working on an '03 Ranger I have, the dealer told me it's the computer for the a/c - $1200 and used ones wouldn't work. I said no. I only paid $2000 for the whole truck. A couple months later when at a parts store for oil, I thought I'll just replace the fuse ($2) and see what happens. "PRAISE JESUS! A MIRACLE!" Worked just fine. The dealer was going to rip me off for $1200 for a $2 fuse. Of course, they did offer that I trade it in for a new truck. (Yeah, right, I'm not that much of a chump.)

That is the other problem with the complexity of cars now. You are 100% at the mercy of whatever shop you take it to. They can tell you ANYTHING, be completely lying, and no way to detect it. Engine light on? "You need a new $1500 cat converter" - when really you only needed a $50 sensor, "Your fuel injection pump is out" for $2300, when really it is just a $20 fuel filter. "Your transmission is out - $4200" when really just a wire came loose etc.

Of course, more, the dealer tells you your car needs $5000 in repairs, so why don't you trade it in for a new one? So you do. Even don't negotiate the price hard, glad they are taking your car you can't even afford to fix so at least you have a car - and a new one.

Then they fix your car for $21 and wholesale it - still making a profit on your car. That is how it REALLY most often works - how to screw you out of your paid-off car for their profit to sell you a new car for a higher price than you'd otherwise pay glad to unload your old car you can't afford to fix - a double hit (double rip off).
 
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Drawdown said:
With farm equipment, it will move toward no right to tinker with the software but you can do more physical repairs like replace parts. Part of it is that the higher end models are becoming increasing electronic and are heading in the full automation direction. They don't want you in the software because you can screw it up and states like California that are super virtue signaler do not want you to be able to change the government approved emissions.
Click to expand...

This isn't about messing with software. It's about not programming the software to render the equipment useless if one does change parts.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I'm a freelance mechanic, that's been working on various things for about 20 years.

As a freelance mechanic I can pick and choose what I work on. Something I've noticed with automobiles are the German automobiles have sometimes punitively high parts replacement costs. Which of course cuts into my profit. So I just don't work on them. I figured the high costs were due to import prices.

So something I've stumbled upon while I was surfing the internet was this article about Farmers buying old tractors driving up the price. And it turns out they're paying 40 to $60,000 for tractors that are over two decades old because the new ones have been designed to where you can't repair them. Either they have some sort of software gateway or they have some form proprietary barrier, forcing you to go through the manufacturer.

Sometimes the manufacturers charge five figures for repairs.

So it got me thinking about right to repair and apparently this is a thing. I was watching a video from a guy who does repairs on cellular phones and computers and he was talking about Apple products. I had an iPod years ago and I was having a little difficulty with its function end basically Apple told me I have to replace it. After spending $300 on it and having it for just over a year. I was done with the product at that point. But apparently things have gotten worse.

So back to right to repair, and what this means. It is essentially legislation that forbids manufacturers from putting on needlessly complicated gateways and proprietary barriers for repairs. Is this a form of Monopoly? Is this a form of antitrust?

I'm not sure this seems to be new territory.

What are your thoughts?

Farmers Are Buying Up Old Tractors Because New Ones Are Pointlessly Complicated and Expensive - The Drive
Click to expand...

if you want economy, you have to pay for it



you young whippersnappers don't know how good you've got it
coming up, in the 50s & 60s, cars were traded in every two to four years
stuff would start to fall apart by then
wherever we drove, it was not unusual to see cars stranded by the roadside
a good portion of the failures were tires. no steel belts in those days. tire replacements tended to be an annual event
the good side was that there were lots of shade tree mechanics available to work on cars as a side project
not much of that going on these days
100,000 miles was a rarity back then. i just flipped a quarter million in my BMW, and no telling how many more miles are on the car from when the odoment was not hooked up. parts can be expensive but i need them rarely
in my never-humble opinion, we are now in a golden age of auto production; cars tend to be reliable and have a substantial longevity. often have great performance as well
not like the days on my starter wife's vega, known to need an engine replacement by 40,000 miles. or my replacement wife's seventies-something fiat which proved Fix It Again Tony was an appropriate adage
or my 69 vw hatchback with the "computerized" fuel injection system. i soon knew why the jet pilot gave me such a sweet deal on it after he had driven it for only a year
and don't get me started on the cars built after the first oil embargo when emission requirements were added. unlike the muscle car period that immediately preceded it, there are NO collectibles from that sorry era

here is an excellent article which addresses - and dismisses - your assessment of planned obsolescence ... it even references ralph nader's objections about such intent back in the 60s: Planned Obsolescence Isn't Really a Problem | Mises Wire
 
CLAX1911 said:
This isn't about messing with software. It's about not programming the software to render the equipment useless if one does change parts.
Click to expand...

Then don't buy a $300K tractor if you cannot afford to pay someone to work on it. And it is about messing with the software. Emissions and fuel efficiency are a big part of the equation and they want to make sure that you do not screw them up with an aftermarket amazon replacement part.
 
I have tested repair shop / dealers before taking the real repair in. Just pull a spark plug wire off the plug, then limp it in saying "my car has been running really badly." If they pass your test, then take them the vehicle you really need repaired.

See what they tell you. I'd put the odds at 1 out of 10 a dealer will be truthful and about 1 in 3 for an independent - the smaller the better (why they are small - they're honest).
 
Hari Seldon said:
Thanks again, I am leaning toward another Toyota. My 1999 Altima got 179,000 miles before I donated it. Too much work needed, I commuted with it over the TZ Bridge for quite a while. Its why I thought the 2013 we got for my wife would be good. Its now my daughters but is a piece of dreck. How about Honda? My son drives a 2012 CRV we bought used. So far so good. I like the new ones.
Click to expand...

Honda makes good cars, their CVT isn't as good as Toyota but it's decent. The manual transmission is the best with a Honda.
 
Drawdown said:
Then don't buy a $300K tractor if you cannot afford to pay someone to work on it. And it is about messing with the software.
Click to expand...
Ag equipment isn't a luxury.

Emissions and fuel efficiency are a big part of the equation and they want to make sure that you do not screw them up with an aftermarket amazon replacement part.[/QUOTE]
 
Drawdown said:
Then don't buy a $300K tractor if you cannot afford to pay someone to work on it. And it is about messing with the software. Emissions and fuel efficiency are a big part of the equation and they want to make sure that you do not screw them up with an aftermarket amazon replacement part.
Click to expand...

Those god-damn non-millionaire farmers who can't afford $300,000 tractors! And that's the fault of Trump the environmentalist - fault too, right?

Yeah, if you aren't rich enough to be "green" get out of farming or buy a mule and plow. Thank you environmentalist freaks who only like millionaires - and the more co2 and pollution they emit the better too!

Actually, for tractors what it means is that Korea, Japan and now the Chinese are fully capturing the tractor market, particularly China because they don't give a damn about any of our laws and cheat any way they can - plus if the tractor lasts thru the 1 year warranty that's good enough.
 
joko104 said:
Those god-damn non-millionaire farmers who can't afford $300,000 tractors! And that's the fault of Trump the environmentalist - fault too, right?

Yeah, if you aren't rich enough to be "green" get out of farming or buy a mule and plow. Thank you environmentalist freaks who only like millionaires - and the more co2 and pollution they emit the better too!

Actually, for tractors what it means is that Korea, Japan and now the Chinese are fully capturing the tractor market, particularly China because they don't give a damn about any of our laws and cheat any way they can - plus if the tractor lasts thru the 1 year warranty that's good enough.
Click to expand...

Some of it is about California's putting their ridiculous requirements on everything. Another part of it is about efficiency/cost-benefits. They are not interested in building for Joe the 20 acre farmer. They are interested in building for Archer Daniels Midland
 
CLAX1911 said:
Ag equipment isn't a luxury.

Emissions and fuel efficiency are a big part of the equation and they want to make sure that you do not screw them up with an aftermarket amazon replacement part.
Click to expand...

No, that is a lot about it for cars and trucks too. And "pollution control" reduces fuel economy - so pick one. Dirtier exhaust using more fuel - meaning also more co2, or use less fuel but not as clean.

I bought a dually all wheel drive retired '10 ambulance. ALL the ambulance equipment still in it. Radio. Sirens. Lights. Oxygen system - all of it. Like new condition cosmetically. Redundant everything. SUPER CHEAP at an auction. BUT every engine light came on and it would take a minute accelerate from 0 to 70. Only because it was an ambulance could even go at all (by-pass ability - minimally)I took to a shop that builds up 4X4s for off-roading. I would trust them. They told me it is the environmental stuff.

So I asked "how much to fix?" Answer: "Mostly parts, about $10,000. A few hundred for labor." Then he said "why don't you just get rid of that stuff? For about $3500 we can nearly double your horsepower and torque and increase your fuel economy about 35 to 50% depending how you drive."

"YEAH! DO THAT!" I even threw in some extra to replace the crapped up intercooler and add a water injection system. Florida has no inspections or tailpipe tests - meaning a customizers dream state.

WOW, does my ambulance RUN F A N T A S T I C. The twin inline turbo diesel makes about 40 psi putting out a tad under 600 horsepower and although weighing 4 1/2 tons and the areodynamics of a box gets about 18-19 mpg at 75 Interstate speed. Ever see a dually ambulance smoke the tires off the line? LOL!

The only time it makes a difference I can see is if I floor it and then there is some (Not alot) of diesel soot.

Ok, you greenies... which more destroys earth? A little black soot? Or burning 33% more fuel - meaning a lot more co2? The law says to maximize co2 to minimize other pollution. Do you agree? Is diesel truck soot the greater problem than climate change? You have to pick one.
 
justabubba said:
if you want economy, you have to pay for it



you young whippersnappers don't know how good you've got it
coming up, in the 50s & 60s, cars were traded in every two to four years
stuff would start to fall apart by then
wherever we drove, it was not unusual to see cars stranded by the roadside
a good portion of the failures were tires. no steel belts in those days. tire replacements tended to be an annual event
the good side was that there were lots of shade tree mechanics available to work on cars as a side project
not much of that going on these days
100,000 miles was a rarity back then. i just flipped a quarter million in my BMW, and no telling how many more miles are on the car from when the odoment was not hooked up. parts can be expensive but i need them rarely
in my never-humble opinion, we are now in a golden age of auto production; cars tend to be reliable and have a substantial longevity. often have great performance as well
not like the days on my starter wife's vega, known to need an engine replacement by 40,000 miles. or my replacement wife's seventies-something fiat which proved Fix It Again Tony was an appropriate adage
or my 69 vw hatchback with the "computerized" fuel injection system. i soon knew why the jet pilot gave me such a sweet deal on it after he had driven it for only a year
and don't get me started on the cars built after the first oil embargo when emission requirements were added. unlike the muscle car period that immediately preceded it, there are NO collectibles from that sorry era

here is an excellent article which addresses - and dismisses - your assessment of planned obsolescence ... it even references ralph nader's objections about such intent back in the 60s: Planned Obsolescence Isn't Really a Problem | Mises Wire
Click to expand...

I think you are mostly lucky. 250k on a Broke My Wallet. Is unheard of.

Those cars are pretty unreliable these days.
 
joko104 said:
I have tested repair shop / dealers before taking the real repair in. Just pull a spark plug wire off the plug, then limp it in saying "my car has been running really badly." If they pass your test, then take them the vehicle you really need repaired.

See what they tell you. I'd put the odds at 1 out of 10 a dealer will be truthful and about 1 in 3 for an independent - the smaller the better (why they are small - they're honest).
Click to expand...

I'd advise you not to run your car in that condition.
 
I have a drive-em-til-the-drop attitude. I'll have them tinkered up enough to keep them going, run them into the ground and around 200K give it to a salvage yard. I won't sell a bad or questionable vehicle. It can mess up someone's life and family too much if I do.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Honda makes good cars, their CVT isn't as good as Toyota but it's decent. The manual transmission is the best with a Honda.
Click to expand...

The only one in my family who can drive a stick is my wife. She used to drive a manual Plymouth Horizon when we were in college. Always scared the hell out of me sitting in the passenger seat.
 
joko104 said:
No, that is a lot about it for cars and trucks too. And "pollution control" reduces fuel economy - so pick one. Dirtier exhaust using more fuel - meaning also more co2, or use less fuel but not as clean.

I bought a dually all wheel drive retired '10 ambulance. ALL the ambulance equipment still in it. Radio. Sirens. Lights. Oxygen system - all of it. Like new condition cosmetically. Redundant everything. SUPER CHEAP at an auction. BUT every engine light came on and it would take a minute accelerate from 0 to 70. Only because it was an ambulance could even go at all (by-pass ability - minimally)I took to a shop that builds up 4X4s for off-roading. I would trust them. They told me it is the environmental stuff.

So I asked "how much to fix?" Answer: "Mostly parts, about $10,000. A few hundred for labor." Then he said "why don't you just get rid of that stuff? For about $3500 we can nearly double your horsepower and torque and increase your fuel economy about 35 to 50% depending how you drive."

"YEAH! DO THAT!" I even threw in some extra to replace the crapped up intercooler and add a water injection system. Florida has no inspections or tailpipe tests - meaning a customizers dream state.

WOW, does my ambulance RUN F A N T A S T I C. The twin inline turbo diesel makes about 40 psi putting out a tad under 600 horsepower and although weighing 4 1/2 tons and the areodynamics of a box gets about 18-19 mpg at 75 Interstate speed. Ever see a dually ambulance smoke the tires off the line? LOL!

The only time it makes a difference I can see is if I floor it and then there is some (Not alot) of diesel soot.

Ok, you greenies... which more destroys earth? A little black soot? Or burning 33% more fuel - meaning a lot more co2? The law says to maximize co2 to minimize other pollution. Do you agree? Is diesel truck soot the greater problem than climate change? You have to pick one.
Click to expand...

Most of the emissions tech these days is in the brain meaning not equipment built into the car. The catalytic converter is required to be there by federal law, but they don't really do much any more. If you were to remove it you'd like see the same emissions in an emissions test.
 
Hari Seldon said:
The only one in my family who can drive a stick is my wife. She used to drive a manual Plymouth Horizon when we were in college. Always scared the hell out of me sitting in the passenger seat.
Click to expand...

Trimming a standard isn't that difficult. One thing about it it's hard to be a distracted driver.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I wonder how much profit that would be in making some replacement operating software. You might have to change a little bit of electronic hardware but they components can't be that difficult.

I ran into this with an old radio I took out of my suburban. I tried to give it to a friend of mine who had a radio on her car that Didn't work. It was just a factory piece of crap. Not the sort of thing anyone would break into a car to steal. And it was locked out. I called the Chevy and asked them if I could unlock it and they said no I have to bring it into the Chevy dealership and pay them $150 to punch in a code. Or I could purchase a new one for $175.

I can understand paying $15 to have them unlock the radio. I don't work for free. But this was an effort to try and make me just replace it. Because they wanted the money for the replacement.

So I bought her a $70 aftermarket radio that was leaps and bounds above.
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Well, that's the trick. When you calculate that after market service costs more than the warranty is worth, you tear out the controls and throw an Allen Bradley PLC in. Easy to do, so long as you don't mind chucking the 5 year warranty on air end.

For <50 HP compressors, that point is 6 months after install.
 
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