Who destroyed businesses in the USA, it certainly was not liberals

Does anyone realize for every 300-3000% mark up and profit made from Foreign imports, also cost America 300-3000% deterioration in infrastructure and deterioration in every aspect of what could be done if that production and wages had been paid to America's...

If Business and Unions had remained in America. The production and progressive wages would have afforded America's the means to be consumers of what American's produced and it would not be an issue of cost or price... because out system would have recycled those dollars into the American system and its economy. We would not be filling our landfills with this cheap disposable stuff!!! We would have the supply chain connected directly to America, and all the collateral business that supply industry would have continued to flourish.

The only winners were the wealthy who pocketed and stashed off shores all that extracted profit... and America suffers economically as a result.

Production Cost, Progressive Wage and Consumerism, would have continue to uplift and improve America as it did that gave America the once dominant lead in Industrial Production. No time in history has cost not increased, and during the days of Union progressive labor, American's purchasing power met the measure to be quality consumers.

So, all this greed driven exporting of industry, was a sham sold to "gullible people" who worry more about the wealthy extracting a savage level profit at the expense of American society, its economy, its quality standards of cities and the quality standard of our infrastructure and progressive growth and development in all sectors of society.

People seem to forget that America became the leader in the world of industry, with a profit margin of 40-60-65% and Industry was able to write off the cost of doing business and providing employee benefits, and they made fortunes that allowed business to expand all across this nation. Now business make astronomical profits in the tune of 300% and more, and "everything including the lives of American is challenged and many debt consumed and devastated.

WHY... Because the White Nationalist Agenda of Republican Confederacy Ideology, never, wanted to see women and minorities have economic parity with white males... and all of American is paying a heavy price for it, and wrapped in $22 Trillion plus of debt, and more than $70 Trillion in unfunded obligations.

Social Security would have a large surplus if America had kept American Industry and American people working and producing no less than 40-60% of what American's consume. The contribution into Social Security would have been astronomical, and the System would have no concerns of insolvency in any time in the projected future.

health care cost would be lower, because jobs sponsored health programs would have had 10's of million still on the programs and insurer's would know they have a high enough volume of contributors to keep premiums cost low. Even with co pay, it would have been far less than it is today.

But, people don't think that deep... they don't understand how everything is linked and factored upon the interactive functions within the systems... Instead; they (Right Winger Mentality) in their cultist gullibility built upon the historical ideology of race bias and ethnicity bigotry, better known as racism... which they did nothing but develop "code words" to continue to spins drama and chase the fictional fantasy of folklore and interject confabulated idiocy based on old time segregationist idiocy into their mindsets... to try and retain the same ignorance of race based stupidity that the wealthy and the confederate Republican minded politicians instill and feed them a steady diet of bigoted, they keep them on a diet of such madness and bias and they are cult devoted enough to continue to try and justify it.

Then... They have the audacity to try and "deny" it.... as if they think the mass majority of liberal humane respecting people can't see through it. Then when they are busted and it hits their pocketbook, they want to pretend they didn't mean it, or claim they mis-spoke... when fact is, what's in their hearts came out their mouth and showed in their conduct and acts.

Click to expand...

Kreton said:

That is incorrect. American consumers were purchasing cars manufactured overseas because they were less expensive due to labor manufacturing costs.

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Well...that's certainly what those CEOs who did the offshoring and people like me from fifteen years ago and those with whom I palled around want you to think. And we spent some money, and more time, making sure you'd buy this kind of story unthinkingly.

But it's not true. One simple point: American car manufacturers started diffusing their supply and manufacturing chains in the mid 1960s, and they started offshoring jobs in the early 1970s. But Americans didn't start buying Japanese cars in any appreciable volume until the mid 1980s. Now, how could your narrative be true if that's correct?

See: Joshua Murray and Michael Schwartz, Wrecked: How the American Automobile Industry Destroyed its Capacity to Compete, New York: Russel Sage Foundation, 2019.

here's a summary of the book:

Decline of U.S. auto industry linked to midcentury shift in production models | Vanderbilt News | Vanderbilt University

Anyway, the reason Americans started buying Japanese cars wasn't because Japanese cars were necessarily cheaper just as such, at least in terms of purchase price. A new Honda cost about the same as a new Ford. The thing was that the Ford would crap out after 100,000 miles, while the Honda would keep going to around 250,000 miles relatively maintenance free.

The rise of Japan: How the car industry was won - The Globe and Mail

Kreton said:

When American manufacturing went overseas consumers decided to continue purchasing that car.

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When American manufacturing went overseas, exactly what choice did consumers have? Go back to the horse and buggy, and endure a six-hour commute each day? Or just go live under a bridge?

Kreton said:

That decision to purchase cars manufactured overseas severely impacted other manufacturers and those that wanted to survive had a choice to make. Follow suit or go under.

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Offshoring was already a decade-and-a-half old by then.

Kreton said:

The price wars of Ford and Chevy - driven by consumer demand for cheaper cars -forced them to make decisions. Quick way to lower cars is cheap labor and few manufacturing restrictions. It worked.

That follows suit for most industries.

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Again, when economic elites who run large American companies offshore most of their labor, what choice do consumers really have?

Moreover, your claims could only be correct if prices had been dropping on any number of consumer goods. That's the story, right? Consumers want cheaper products, and the idea is that CEOs listen to that demand and provide cheaper products by cutting labor costs.

But again, if that narrative were true, why would prices on virtually everything have been rising steadily? You'd expect to see prices drop when some CEO offshores a massive number of jobs--but the prices of consumer goods do not drop. They keep on rising around 1-6% per year. All those profits gained by cutting labor costs just go into the pockets of the guys who did the offshoring. In terms of the price-point for the consumer, virtually nothing changes. But plenty does for the CEOs, CFOs, and CIOs of the world.

independentusa said:

CEO's and stockholders are the ones mainly responsible for businesses, especially manufacturing leaving the country. Cons like to say it was government regulation, but they know it came down to greater earnings by moving manufacturing overseas to low wage areas of the world. If started with Japan, then moved to South Korea and China and now is slowly moving again to places like South Vietnam, India and Indonesia. Always looking for the one more buck of profit. Even in this country some states have passed laws that do not allow employee salary increases without permission of the companies stock holders. they see all money within the company as belonging to the stockholders. It is one reason so many companies have moved their headquarter to New Jersey. So blaming regulations for these moves is the Cons way of deflecting from what they know as the truth.

Click to expand...

You're partly right, and partly full of........ Companies move offshore for any number of reasons. Only one of them is labor costs, and that ONLY if the product being manufactured is labor intensive, like textiles (textiles includes clothing, BTW). Other considerations is tax liability; some countries offer a "NO Tax" period of several years, and then low, low taxes after that. Some will even donate the land to build the plant, and subsidize the construction costs. Permits are fast tracked; it can take 15 to 20 years to get all the permits in California. Several US states have tried to copy that "No Tax" model, most recently New York and Kansas. Other incentives to moving is going to a developing country with NO environmental regulations. (or little enforcement). This is especially attractive if a company does metal casting, chemical production, and things like batteries.

Other incentives to moving offshore include no unions to fight, no product liability (so you don't have to worry about getting sued because of Consumer Protection Laws). Offshore it's easier to infringe copyrights, generally the government won't require employee retirements, Worksmen Comp, health insurance, and there is no OSHA governing worker safety.

There are some other practical reasons. These days, offshore is where the supply chains are. Want to make a TV or DVD player in the US? Most ALL of your component suppliers will be in Asia. I know a lady who makes hospital scrubs....very good hospital scrubs.... she had to get all her fabric and sewing machines from Asia; she eventually just moved her whole operation offshore; with only a sales and warehouse operation here.

So what should we do? Require ALL imports to meet our environment standards, product liability standards, OSHA standards, and all the rest. Then we should add a tariff to do R&D here.

Thought I'd add one more observation.

We live in a global world. Democrats and Republicans created it. Ross Perot warned us about it. Like it or not, US businesses have to compete. That means American labor is in competition with labor all over the planet. Companies HAVE to go where they get the best deal.

If you and I both make brake pads for cars, and you build yours offshore where labor is cheap, you don't have to worry about OSHA or the EPA citing you for pollution, you don't have unions to worry about, and your taxes are very low, I won't be able to compete with you unless I move my operation offshore as well. I'll try to find some ****hole of a country that will give me an even better deal than you got.

So quit whining about American wage rates. You're lucky we have any jobs at all, considering the twin threats of globalization and automation. In the not too distant future, we might not.

Waddy said:

Thought I'd add one more observation.

We live in a global world. Democrats and Republicans created it. Ross Perot warned us about it. Like it or not, US businesses have to compete. That means American labor is in competition with labor all over the planet. Companies HAVE to go where they get the best deal.

If you and I both make brake pads for cars, and you build yours offshore where labor is cheap, you don't have to worry about OSHA or the EPA citing you for pollution, you don't have unions to worry about, and your taxes are very low, I won't be able to compete with you unless I move my operation offshore as well. I'll try to find some ****hole of a country that will give me an even better deal than you got.

So quit whining about American wage rates. You're lucky we have any jobs at all, considering the twin threats of globalization and automation. In the not too distant future, we might not.

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I 100% agree with most of what you stated.....however it is not a matter of quitting wining about American wage rates. To be blunt they are absolutely terrible. When you compare the US to the rest of developed Western nations and account for the PPP it is ranked quite low. The answer is not 'move everyone offshore', it is about continuing to fight and politicians stepping up to the table because so far they have not.

Globalisation and Automation means jobs are being lost in the US but jobs are being created in other industries. There will be not threat to jobs in the near future (in other words there will not be an under demand and oversupply for a long time)

goldkam said:

I 100% agree with most of what you stated.....however it is not a matter of quitting wining about American wage rates. To be blunt they are absolutely terrible. When you compare the US to the rest of developed Western nations and account for the PPP it is ranked quite low. The answer is not 'move everyone offshore', it is about continuing to fight and politicians stepping up to the table because so far they have not.

Globalisation and Automation means jobs are being lost in the US but jobs are being created in other industries. There will be not threat to jobs in the near future (in other words there will not be an under demand and oversupply for a long time)

Click to expand...

Here we will have to differ. The rate of change is accelerating. Automation will create far fewer jobs than it creates. That's the point of it, at least in large part. Even now we are becoming a colony of Asia. We ship raw materials and they ship back finished (value added) product. We can still be a major player as a colonial supplier, but not a leading wage economy. That requires tech, something we are falling behind in. China, for instance, is kicking our butts everywhere across the globe in tech now. They are the ones building global 5G.
First Asia took the low hanging fruit; labor intensive and polluting industries (BTW: that's how we cleaned up our pollution, we moved it to Asia) like textiles and metal casting. Now Asia intends to dominate high tech industries like aircraft and automobile manufacturing. It's called the 2025 program. Own those industries by 2025.

As trends show, most jobs being created now in the US are low paying service work. That trend will continue. We have quite a surplus of engineers, of all types, except computer programmers. They built a cat litter plant here a few years ago; it has NO line employees, just a maintenance crew and some fork lift loaders for the shipping.

Tech favors capital over labor. We are going to be a nation of those who manipulate tech, work in tech, who will make a good living, and everyone else. The wealth gap will get worse.

What I know... is during the Era of American's high level of dominant industry from Automotive to Attire... Americans "built durable quality". We also built things that could be repairable, and companies managed and maintained a segment of "replacement parts" as part of the business model.. It went further, our stores had knowledgeable sales people, who understood product types and the variations of product models.
American Income afforded the level to allow people to consume what was needed and indulge in some of the things wanted. Sadly, it did not do that for All American's because of segregationist ignorance that promoted inequity and income disparity...

Today, no matter how much Racism is promoted, it does nothing to benefit the racist. They will not get to dominate everything with "white skin priviledge', and they being white, will not give anyone instant wealth; and it has never given that to the poor whites who are the front like soldier promoting the engagements of racist ignorance's in society. Everything they try to promote denying blacks the accessibility and opportunity, also denies it to them as well. They backed everything that tried to cut off access to Union Jobs, and they did everything to try and raise prices to make standard of living out of reach for blacks, and it also became out of reach for the same racist and the race bias types.

The so called Middle Class that detested poor whites and hated poor blacks.. found themselves reaping a life of "credit debt", because overthinking they did to try and make life difficult for blacks, women and poor whites in general, also made things difficult for them as well.

Today, many who put on the pretense they are upper middle class, live in a circle and cycle of fears and they are terrified of not being able to shop and consume material things they measure their lives based upon. Until... they wrap themselves in debt, waste money on anything they think is a status image, and their reliance on the system of industry to pay them higher, while the greed of the wealthy control the mechanism they find themselves employed.

If they are laid off, get sick or loose their jobs, they fall even harder than the average working person within the poor whites society, blacks and women. Because they built their lives and place their self worth value in money and things. Go look around, many bury themselves because they have to have the most expense status vehicle, and everything they consume themselves within has to have the so called "right designer labels", come from the so called "right store', and their kids are core to the mentality that breeds youthful "bullying" ... yet when they themselves are bulled among the group who measure themselves on money and status, they claim depression and feel their lives are intolerable.

The human reality is not as complicated as it appears, its the "ignorance of people" that make it confounding.

In 2016, digital analytic's led them, dictated to them and manipulated them by targeting them with ad's that drove a wedge in society, with bigoted, vile and malicious political ad's. We've seen recently, in political ad's that are centered around 'Attack".... In the state of Louisiana, when it came to Governor's race, the ad's were vicious by the Republican Candidature, who tried to play on the people with a claim of Jobs. yet, they forgot their own spill and story about politicians is not who creates jobs. Yet, they wanted to now claim its politicians who create jobs.

The Ads had nothing to say about what concerns the daily lives of people, it spoke about "how it sided with Trump" and then led into the spill about "Conservatives'... yet, never addressing public policy related to schools, colleges, health care, and social civility.

Those that followed int, still have no idea how they were controlled like digital robotic toy's... targeted with such vile divisive s campaign ads.

Republican ignored the facts that came out in the Mueller Investigation, and blinded themselves to facts they should have paid attention unto.

Cambridge Analytics... targeted "Red States' and manipulated the gullible with "targeted advertisements of mis information"... Now, people who were instrumental in that now defunct company are speaking out and speaking their remorse at the vile they did in influencing and manipulating the minds of so many. At some point people will learn of the complicity Facebook played, along with other social platform people are obsessed with. The same for various social media Forums, where people can be lead by "drama incitements" and ignore facts.

Even within this site, people fade away when details are discussed, because they have been groomed to chase, pursue and indulge themselves in one and two liner slap stick, and become befuddled at any posting that present details and try and promote them to do their own investigation to learn.

This is the type of groomed sheep mentality so many have been afflicted with, and they've made it so common of a habit, until they justify their lack of regard and their willful indulges in the ignorance of denial mentality.

So many, especially within the Republican ranks, have been groomed to "not think for themselves", they are fed daily drama by Right Wing Media, and trained like one would a seal to try and balance a ball on their nose, unaware their consumption in such distraction, occupies them to the point they can't think beyond the ball, bounding off their nose.

They bought into the racist divisiveness promotions, and they bought into the disrespect of the nations governance, and they sit back and rally at the damages done to national policy and now that leaves them blind and unaware of their support for the incessant attacks upon our American Justice System... to the point they don't respect the policy and rules of Congressional Oversight.

They've been taught and led, to worship the wealthy white man, until they support daily denigration of America. This demonstrates the level of generalized and willful ignorance of how easily people can be led, and managed like a string puppet... until they fight against all that is designed to help them, the nation, its environment and its future.

Their concept of Religion has become silent and in silence they support the "daily belligerence", they support the inhumanity of "kids being taken from their parents' and they fell for the delusions that Immigrants is the cause of their own misery, when truth is, they supported a bigoted system that has never cared to see poor whites become economically capable to meet the standard of living.

They are taught "never" to even consider blaming the wealthy... so they are easily led like a "cult"... and they devote themselves as cultist in both mentality and actions.

They have been taught to look at drama, and ignore the ways the wealthy have bought away their voice and dictate over their environments with gerrymandering which functions like a cage, that contains them and feed them a daily dose of self defeatist ignorance...

And....... they remain unaware these process has consumed them.

Waddy said:

Here we will have to differ. The rate of change is accelerating. Automation will create far fewer jobs than it creates. That's the point of it, at least in large part. Even now we are becoming a colony of Asia. We ship raw materials and they ship back finished (value added) product. We can still be a major player as a colonial supplier, but not a leading wage economy. That requires tech, something we are falling behind in. China, for instance, is kicking our butts everywhere across the globe in tech now. They are the ones building global 5G.
First Asia took the low hanging fruit; labor intensive and polluting industries (BTW: that's how we cleaned up our pollution, we moved it to Asia) like textiles and metal casting. Now Asia intends to dominate high tech industries like aircraft and automobile manufacturing. It's called the 2025 program. Own those industries by 2025.

As trends show, most jobs being created now in the US are low paying service work. That trend will continue. We have quite a surplus of engineers, of all types, except computer programmers. They built a cat litter plant here a few years ago; it has NO line employees, just a maintenance crew and some fork lift loaders for the shipping.

Tech favors capital over labor. We are going to be a nation of those who manipulate tech, work in tech, who will make a good living, and everyone else. The wealth gap will get worse.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the insightful sharing, hopefully people won't be too obstinate to listen and learn.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's a sadness and great atrocity, that "People of the Right Wing" reject such truths.... President Obama, tried to tell American People, more than a decade ago, that "We have to Rebuild FROM THE BOTTOM UP and we have to do so with 'technology of the future"... and people bought into the insidiousness of Trump, trying to convince people that he can recreate the 1950's of his childhood.. Many who listen to him, have no idea, Trump grew up in an area and community, that did not take kindly to working poor whites and certainly not to minorities, and they had firm concepts of roles to contain women. Because it was about "white male dominance"... and white male priviledge, not just in everything, but the priviledge to see and make use of women as Ornamental, access to pleasure, and her role was to produce an heir, and dress like a doll, to flatter the males's public ego, but her roles was to "shut up", speak when spoken to, and keep her opinions to herself.

Technology won't wait for fools, it never has... fools even stood against the entrance of the Automobile, and they did it again, when the Computer entered into general society. Now, automobiles are everywhere and the computer systems control every aspect of business, industry and the collateral's that make society's systems function.

America should be teaching technology in every region of this country, from the rural to the inner cities, and when kids graduate from high school, they should be tech literate and proficient in utilizing it.

We still have a mass of people from the Baby Boom Era who are in general respects, Tech Illiterate, sadly we have people who came from the 1970's and 1980's who are semi literate but ineffectively deficient in understanding the basics of technology. There are people today, who still have issues learning to utilize computers for the most basic of things.
I made sure that my parents knew how not only to use it, but to understand what and how it functioned. I recall when the PC first hit the desktops of business, I spent vast amounts of time training people on even the simplicity of utilizing desktop programs. Still today, I see many people, who can barely properly format a documents. But I see young kids who can develop apps and use the tools to gather and compile information and do so where it is comprehensible and usable.

We have to face the fact of the levels of "illiteracy in American' and the many areas and types of "illiteracy that is within society". People still try and live by "folklore" based on confabulated nostalgia... Sadly, there are many who don't even know what the world "folklore means'.... and certainly many do not know what "confabulation" means. If they did learn the meaning , they go into denial... for fear of being discovered as not knowing. Unaware there is no shame in learning, there is shame in being too ignorant to accept that learning is an ongoing process.

There is a level of widespread "idiocy" in making assumptions that one knows, what they have not invested themselves to learn details and factors that they may be able to discern truth and facts from fiction and drama.

aociswundumho said:

By doing so, the greedy capitalists have brought billions of people out of poverty in formally third world countries. Funny how you guys never mention that part.

On top of that, the greedy capitalists have also greatly benefited poor and middle-class people in the US by providing them with consumer goods at much lower prices.

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And much lower quality.

Our current model only works if they sell more things to more people more times.

We had one can opener and one toaster my entire childhood. Now you're lucky if those things last more than a year or two.

RealityNow said:

Even within this site, people fade away when details are discussed, because they have been groomed to chase, pursue and indulge themselves in one and two liner slap stick, and become befuddled at any posting that present details and try and promote them to do their own investigation to learn.

This is the type of groomed sheep mentality so many have been afflicted with, and they've made it so common of a habit, until they justify their lack of regard and their willful indulges in the ignorance of denial mentality.

So many, especially within the Republican ranks, have been groomed to "not think for themselves", they are fed daily drama by Right Wing Media, and trained like one would a seal to try and balance a ball on their nose, unaware their consumption in such distraction, occupies them to the point they can't think beyond the ball, bounding off their nose.

They bought into the racist divisiveness promotions, and they bought into the disrespect of the nations governance, and they sit back and rally at the damages done to national policy and now that leaves them blind and unaware of their support for the incessant attacks upon our American Justice System... to the point they don't respect the policy and rules of Congressional Oversight.

They've been taught and led, to worship the wealthy white man, until they support daily denigration of America. This demonstrates the level of generalized and willful ignorance of how easily people can be led, and managed like a string puppet... until they fight against all that is designed to help them, the nation, its environment and its future.

Their concept of Religion has become silent and in silence they support the "daily belligerence", they support the inhumanity of "kids being taken from their parents' and they fell for the delusions that Immigrants is the cause of their own misery, when truth is, they supported a bigoted system that has never cared to see poor whites become economically capable to meet the standard of living.

They are taught "never" to even consider blaming the wealthy... so they are easily led like a "cult"... and they devote themselves as cultist in both mentality and actions.

They have been taught to look at drama, and ignore the ways the wealthy have bought away their voice and dictate over their environments with gerrymandering which functions like a cage, that contains them and feed them a daily dose of self defeatist ignorance...

And....... they remain unaware these process has consumed them.

Click to expand...

Who do you think grooms those of on the right? Curious....



Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Waddy said:

Thought I'd add one more observation.

We live in a global world. Democrats and Republicans created it. Ross Perot warned us about it. Like it or not, US businesses have to compete. That means American labor is in competition with labor all over the planet. Companies HAVE to go where they get the best deal.

If you and I both make brake pads for cars, and you build yours offshore where labor is cheap, you don't have to worry about OSHA or the EPA citing you for pollution, you don't have unions to worry about, and your taxes are very low, I won't be able to compete with you unless I move my operation offshore as well. I'll try to find some ****hole of a country that will give me an even better deal than you got.

So quit whining about American wage rates. You're lucky we have any jobs at all, considering the twin threats of globalization and automation. In the not too distant future, we might not.

Click to expand...

This is correct to some extent. However, manufacturers and retailers hide their actual markups and margin rates jealously, and I suspect if you actually saw some of that data, you might change your perspective somewhat. The profits reaped from cheap labor mostly go to the same economic elites who have chosen to offshore jobs. Those companies could hire American workers and still make a profit. The profit would be about 5-8% rather than 200-300%. And in what I've gestured toward here is part of the story about how the wealth and income gap in this country has gotten so out of whack.

Eriech said:

Who do you think grooms those of on the right? Curious....



Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Research "Cambridge Analytica" and listen to some of the key players who worked there, and the congressional hearing both in the U.S. and in Europe., then how Facebook's info ... was used by Cambridge Analytica to gather info to target people. They specifically targeted red states..and red zone voting precincts. They also knew which people did not read to research issues, but were easily influenced by "attack ads" and "bias promotions", and every other "trigger" that could be used to drive their emotional state of thought, which becomes a direct influence on how they pull the levels in the voting booth.

Their target was the Right... the same as in Europe their target was those who were unsure and undecided and uninformed, which they groomed them to vote for Brexit... the same as they groomed them to vote for Trump... they hit Facebook with over 5 million ad's and mis information, as well as they used people on blogs and forums to spin the drama that coincides with the attack ads. People are not so difficult to influence... Advertiser have known that for decades upon decades. No Ad's that are crafted by Advertising agendas is just some random imagery, they know which psychological trigger to include, and what imagery that plays on the vainity, the fears and the desperation to be a part of something.

Most people are exactly like people who visit these Forums, they don't have long attention spans, the write slap stick, one liners, looking for pun, and 'gotcha' ego slap stick, and then go into 'denial cycles when they don't indulge to learn facts or details". Trump played people for their general ignorance of childhood silliness, when he played the "sling a put down name to every canididate" and he followed that up with declaring himself the greatest... and people never figured it out. he used symbolism of material things, and people sucked it up, with him parking a Jet with his name on it, to filling a stage with and exaggerated amount of American Flags. Mostly all he has said, is some form and manner of Put down of everything about the government, its agencies, its departments and its divisions, and then come back and claim he is 'the greatest and the only one" and people fell for it. Truth is, the man can't even fill Cabinet Position with dignified and honest intelligent people.
His Belligerent Fest is 90% about "Attacking Something" and the other 10% is about patronizing himself... he suckers the people to buy hats and tee shirts because they want so bad to be part of the "attack something machinery"... unaware they are attacking everything that built up America for 100's of years...

I don't play survey games on the internet, and I don't do Facebook and such things... and I certainly would not try to get my news from such sources. Many people don't even know at one point the Former Executive of Breitbart , also became a VP of SLC, the parent of Cambridge Analytics.



Read about: Christopher Wylie, and Brittany Kaiser, each whom now... advocate to consider the system usage of peoples personal data as a tool that has been weaponized against society, especially in the Political and Voting Arena.

ashurbanipal said:

This is correct to some extent. However, manufacturers and retailers hide their actual markups and margin rates jealously, and I suspect if you actually saw some of that data, you might change your perspective somewhat. The profits reaped from cheap labor mostly go to the same economic elites who have chosen to offshore jobs. Those companies could hire American workers and still make a profit. The profit would be about 5-8% rather than 200-300%. And in what I've gestured toward here is part of the story about how the wealth and income gap in this country has gotten so out of whack.

Click to expand...

Actually that profit would be 15%-30%-60% depending on product... that's the % range(s) that built America of many decades. the 200%-300%+ is the amount that our nations has declined on a yearly basis.... because that is the % losses of what has been fleeced and denied to the general population as income and taxes paid, that helped built our system and circulate currency within the American system of economy.

It should have long been labeled for what is it... "Economic Treason Against American Society and its Citizens", by American Industrialist.

ashurbanipal said:

This is correct to some extent. However, manufacturers and retailers hide their actual markups and margin rates jealously, and I suspect if you actually saw some of that data, you might change your perspective somewhat. The profits reaped from cheap labor mostly go to the same economic elites who have chosen to offshore jobs. Those companies could hire American workers and still make a profit. The profit would be about 5-8% rather than 200-300%. And in what I've gestured toward here is part of the story about how the wealth and income gap in this country has gotten so out of whack.

Click to expand...

Companies have to go where the profit margin is highest. Their job isn't social justice, it's to maximize profit. They pass that profit to shareholders. Shareholders include your pension plan, 401K's, public sector retirements, and even college endowments, which are huge. If one company moves offshore and gains a competitive edge, most other companies will have to follow. It's just plain economics.

What is unfair is that we have signed trade agreements, under both Democrats and Republicans, that give offshore tremendous advantages, making it almost impossible for domestic American companies to compete. Not that difficult to make a deal when you give all the advantages to one side. doesn't take a genius.

Coming out of WWII many nations needed favorable trade deals. We signed onto them in order to boost trade and contain Communism. We were the last man standing, and could afford to be generous. But times have changed; those countries are now our competitors. We need new trade deals that level the playing field. We need deals that make offshore producers meet American environmental standards (EPA), that insure worker safety standards (OSHA), offer retirements, health care, sick leave, adequate wages, Workmen's Comp, even vacation days. We need trade agreements that protect copyright, make offshore companies civilly liable for product defects (consumer protection), and offset low offshore taxation with some tariffs, which we should use for R&D.

Do you remember the Chinese wallboard scandal? We imported millions of dollars of defective Chinese wallboard and used it to construct homes all over the country. It turned moldy and promoted "black wire" when it was used. The Chinese manufacturers were untouchable; they sold the wallboard through US based front companies. When the lawsuits started rolling in they simply folded those companies, and consumers could not sue in China. Did the same thing with lead in toys, and tainted milk products. We need to fix that problem in future trade deals.

Doing all this will level the playing field, but the wealth gap, due to technology and automation will never go away. When mass agricultural machines started eliminating farm jobs we had a "manufacturing revolution" in progress that gave those displaced farmers a new way of making a living. So they moved to the cities. Technology back then in fact did create more new jobs than it eliminated. Today's technology won't do that. There is no "manufacturing revolution" on the horizon to absorb the labor surplus produced by automation. So we will have a relatively smaller class of people who benefit from this new system and a much larger class of under-employed laborers.

One other point; ALL the politicians on both sides are globalists. They thought, go ahead and let Asia have those labor intensive and polluting industries. We'll keep high tech. But for high tech to work you need a highly technical workforce. That would be the job of public schools. They failed miserably. So we've tried applying sound best business practices to education. Lot of testing to get baselines and measure progress. Lots of new "scientific" approaches to learning. Give every student a laptop. It hasn't worked out very well. We still underachieve. Basic fact; countries that prosper in high tech have high tech education that works. Our public school system is much too PC for that to ever happen here.

Politicizing offshoring is a false choice IMO. Regulation is certainly a contributor as is the rational desire of anyone engaged in manufacturing to maximize profits and minimize labor costs.

Corporation would do just fine in America with 15-30-60 profit margins, and using the system of paying people and providing benefits as the means for tax relief... But they became addicted to Greed... chasing 300-30005 profit margins, and caused the country to decline by that same 300-3000%.... its shows in the level of National Debt and it shows in the expanding ghetto's across America, to the broken down infrastructure and cities on the edge of bankruptcies.... The dry wall you spoke of is, exactly why the value of Regulatory Governance is necessary... to deny it, is only a wealthy ploy, because they don't any longer care about modernizing and upgrading industry. What they ignore is Regulatory Governing will come to China, just as it came to Japan... and cost will go up. The more China uplifts more people, they will have to uplift wages as well. They've uplifted more people than the entire population of America... at between 300-400 million people.... and that number will only increase, by 2022, they may well have uplifted over 500 million people. Those people continue to become consumers of what Chinese companies produce. China likely has 1.5+ Billion people... if they provided an accurate official count, which they will not provide such correct figures.

India and Indonesia will keep advancing, and already Vietnam has made great profess and more progress will come to Cambodia, Laos and other areas that have plenty of trainable labor, and the Asian have become very good and quite confident with supporting On The Job Training.

America, chose to ignore the value of On the Job Training, so they could sell young people, worthless degrees....

independentusa said:

CEO's and stockholders are the ones mainly responsible for businesses, especially manufacturing leaving the country. Cons like to say it was government regulation, but they know it came down to greater earnings by moving manufacturing overseas to low wage areas of the world. If started with Japan, then moved to South Korea and China and now is slowly moving again to places like South Vietnam, India and Indonesia. Always looking for the one more buck of profit. Even in this country some states have passed laws that do not allow employee salary increases without permission of the companies stock holders. they see all money within the company as belonging to the stockholders. It is one reason so many companies have moved their headquarter to New Jersey. So blaming regulations for these moves is the Cons way of deflecting from what they know as the truth.

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Read an Economics 101 book, especially labor cost, followed by corporate structure, and get back with us.

RealityNow said:

Corporation would do just fine in America with 15-30-60 profit margins, and using the system of paying people and providing benefits as the means for tax relief... But they became addicted to Greed... chasing 300-30005 profit margins, and caused the country to decline by that same 300-3000%.... its shows in the level of National Debt and it shows in the expanding ghetto's across America, to the broken down infrastructure and cities on the edge of bankruptcies.... The dry wall you spoke of is, exactly why the value of Regulatory Governance is necessary... to deny it, is only a wealthy ploy, because they don't any longer care about modernizing and upgrading industry. What they ignore is Regulatory Governing will come to China, just as it came to Japan... and cost will go up. The more China uplifts more people, they will have to uplift wages as well. They've uplifted more people than the entire population of America... at between 300-400 million people.... and that number will only increase, by 2022, they may well have uplifted over 500 million people. Those people continue to become consumers of what Chinese companies produce. China likely has 1.5+ Billion people... if they provided an accurate official count, which they will not provide such correct figures.

India and Indonesia will keep advancing, and already Vietnam has made great profess and more progress will come to Cambodia, Laos and other areas that have plenty of trainable labor, and the Asian have become very good and quite confident with supporting On The Job Training.

America, chose to ignore the value of On the Job Training, so they could sell young people, worthless degrees....

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On the job training is a gamble for any business. I was involved in that for many years. If you have a dependable, experienced employee of proven worth to the company, then paying to send him/her to continuing education classes makes a lot of sense because there is every expectation they will complete the classes and be even more valuable to the company. The only risk, and it is a risk, is that a competitor will hire them away after your company trained them up.

On the job training, however, for new hires, anything beyond very basic skills, is very risky. We went by the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 rule. One third of new hires will do very well, and end up being a asset to the company. The middle third can go either way; they might work out great or they might be a bust. The bottom third will never make it, they just don't have the social skills and personal discipline to become well trained workers. So a company can invest a lot for relatively little return. A better strategy is to try and lure proven workers away from competitors. And that happens every day.

Waddy said:

On the job training is a gamble for any business. I was involved in that for many years. If you have a dependable, experienced employee of proven worth to the company, then paying to send him/her to continuing education classes makes a lot of sense because there is every expectation they will complete the classes and be even more valuable to the company. The only risk, and it is a risk, is that a competitor will hire them away after your company trained them up.

On the job training, however, for new hires, anything beyond very basic skills, is very risky. We went by the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 rule. One third of new hires will do very well, and end up being a asset to the company. The middle third can go either way; they might work out great or they might be a bust. The bottom third will never make it, they just don't have the social skills and personal discipline to become well trained workers. So a company can invest a lot for relatively little return. A better strategy is to try and lure proven workers away from competitors. And that happens every day.

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That may have some validity, and that can be dealt with during the 90 day probation period, some places have 6 month probation periods. Even public service jobs have a probationary period. there is no guarantee even with people who have university degrees.

For decades, I've seen people given jobs who have degree that have absolutely no relation to position people seek or have been hired for. Even now in society, there are people who got their degree's in the 1970's and 1980's well before the computer became mainstream... who still to this day struggle with computer usages.

Many did not engage continuing educational skill development. System have changed dramatically. Even people making use of Excel spread sheets, I've seen them manually calculate totals and enter it into a cell, because they don't know the simply formula to make a column auto calculate.

I'm continually amazed at some documents that people create where they don't know the usage of formatting to produce what MS Word is capable of producing. I've built Database in Access, that work like any web portal where one fill in the boxes, and people are reluctant to make use of it. I've seen the offices go into stall mode when it time for 'Report generation", trying to go line by line to gather data.

Today, many people use "bought and paid for data portals' or some companies web based portal, and not understand if you don't enter the data necessary, you can't get that data into a report.

As to other type of jobs that use Robotics, many of those system have so much automation built in, until they are almost dummy proof.

Most jobs especially up to the 1980's and 1990's was designed for 10th grade reading and comprehension level, and many management jobs were designed with a 12th grade reading and compression level. People forget that America was built by people with 10th -12 grade education, and AA degree were what many in the floor level management group. BA and BS degrees were the upper level of professional position. Now, people are being asked to have a Masters degree or comparable experience for Administrative Assistant jobs. (I find that generally absurd)

HR (Human Relations Departments) have lots of dictation from programming promoted by "University Promotions"... as if to create criteria to ensure that people spend time in University, even the Masters Degree programs that is required for some jobs, appear to be more about University having figured out it can profit more from former Alumni, by raising the degree standards, so they come back and pay for a Master's Degree. I'm all for those degree's in specialized fields, especially when people are pursuing jobs in the specialty they invested themselves.

Working with people have sport these degree is an interesting dynamic, especially when it comes to critical decision making situations. Some don't think outside of the scripts they were taught.

Today, it certainly matters that one try and stay up to date on technological changes, system modification and operational advancements and the overall objectives of the operations.

I tell new hires, read the company's Administrative Procedures, Read the HR rules and Regulations and Read the Safety and Loss Prevention manuals..., if its a public jobs, learn what are the regulation, learn the ordinances, and stay updated to the Federal Register of changes and read the case studies, one should always seek to know how a company works... they will become a far better employee, but also improve themselves as an individual, both as person and in association and relation to the business they have chosen to invest their time and efforts.

It's Unfortunate but true, that many people simply don't know what they should know about the companies they work for.

Many young people don't stay on jobs very long, they are looking to trade up, it is not like it was 40-50 yrs ago when people stuck with jobs for career building longevity. Also, many jobs don't create an environment where people can see themselves sticking with long term employment.

Many Job of industry and business systems today, focus on profit only, quality standards become secondary... and employees notice this!! They notice it in how they are treated, and how management interacts, and they watch how things are done in the actual production arena.

Some jobs has poorly trained managements, they have no idea their jobs entails ensuring that the work environment is congenial on a multitude of levels, and employees feel valued.

Many have poor communication skills, and others are so busy trying to protect their jobs, they refuse to acknowledge talent, and when they do, they feel more threatened by it, more than understanding how to advance that talent.

Many levels of Supervision don't deal with confidentiality as it relates to employees, they deal with "group think" and many can destroy an employee's reputation by the way they communicate with other supervisors and management about an employee. companies get sued, because they ignore by lack of knowledge to be informed, about Dept of Labor Standards, EEOC guidelines, and State Level organizations that must adhere to Federal Standards.

These are very important things and becoming more important, because society has by responsibility to deal with respect of person as individual, and that includes person as employee.

People should learn the value of these things... if they did, we'd have less Job related conflicts and certainly diminish the chance of workplace violence, and we'd improve performance and productivity tremendously.

There's a way to terminate employment where the individuals personal dignity is not irreparably damaged, and that relates to a safety factor that many simply don't connect the dots. Teach employees how to make beneficial usage of things like EAP (Employee Assistance Programs).... and value those programs as part of work place standards.

independentusa said:

CEO's and stockholders are the ones mainly responsible for businesses, especially manufacturing leaving the country. Cons like to say it was government regulation, but they know it came down to greater earnings by moving manufacturing overseas to low wage areas of the world. If started with Japan, then moved to South Korea and China and now is slowly moving again to places like South Vietnam, India and Indonesia. Always looking for the one more buck of profit. Even in this country some states have passed laws that do not allow employee salary increases without permission of the companies stock holders. they see all money within the company as belonging to the stockholders. It is one reason so many companies have moved their headquarter to New Jersey. So blaming regulations for these moves is the Cons way of deflecting from what they know as the truth.

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Not true.

Learn something about fiduciary duty.

RealityNow said:

Actually that profit would be 15%-30%-60% depending on product... that's the % range(s) that built America of many decades.

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Not according to the data I've seen...which has been fairly considerable. Net profit expectations for any business from the immediate post-war years through the early 80s was around 5-8%. Many people don't understand the power of compounding interest here. An investment at 7% will nearly double the original capital in ten years.

RealityNow said:

the 200%-300%+ is the amount that our nations has declined on a yearly basis.... because that is the % losses of what has been fleeced and denied to the general population as income and taxes paid, that helped built our system and circulate currency within the American system of economy.

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I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but I might be inclined to agree with you. However, what I can tell you is that businesses who have offshored a significant portion of their labor tend to make profits in that range. Of course, that's not what they report to the public. But that's what they actually do.

RealityNow said:

It should have long been labeled for what is it... "Economic Treason Against American Society and its Citizens", by American Industrialist.

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Yep.

RealityNow said:

Research "Cambridge Analytica" and listen to some of the key players who worked there, and the congressional hearing both in the U.S. and in Europe., then how Facebook's info ... was used by Cambridge Analytica to gather info to target people. They specifically targeted red states..and red zone voting precincts. They also knew which people did not read to research issues, but were easily influenced by "attack ads" and "bias promotions", and every other "trigger" that could be used to drive their emotional state of thought, which becomes a direct influence on how they pull the levels in the voting booth.

Their target was the Right... the same as in Europe their target was those who were unsure and undecided and uninformed, which they groomed them to vote for Brexit... the same as they groomed them to vote for Trump... they hit Facebook with over 5 million ad's and mis information, as well as they used people on blogs and forums to spin the drama that coincides with the attack ads. People are not so difficult to influence... Advertiser have known that for decades upon decades. No Ad's that are crafted by Advertising agendas is just some random imagery, they know which psychological trigger to include, and what imagery that plays on the vainity, the fears and the desperation to be a part of something.

Most people are exactly like people who visit these Forums, they don't have long attention spans, the write slap stick, one liners, looking for pun, and 'gotcha' ego slap stick, and then go into 'denial cycles when they don't indulge to learn facts or details". Trump played people for their general ignorance of childhood silliness, when he played the "sling a put down name to every canididate" and he followed that up with declaring himself the greatest... and people never figured it out. he used symbolism of material things, and people sucked it up, with him parking a Jet with his name on it, to filling a stage with and exaggerated amount of American Flags. Mostly all he has said, is some form and manner of Put down of everything about the government, its agencies, its departments and its divisions, and then come back and claim he is 'the greatest and the only one" and people fell for it. Truth is, the man can't even fill Cabinet Position with dignified and honest intelligent people.
His Belligerent Fest is 90% about "Attacking Something" and the other 10% is about patronizing himself... he suckers the people to buy hats and tee shirts because they want so bad to be part of the "attack something machinery"... unaware they are attacking everything that built up America for 100's of years...

I don't play survey games on the internet, and I don't do Facebook and such things... and I certainly would not try to get my news from such sources. Many people don't even know at one point the Former Executive of Breitbart , also became a VP of SLC, the parent of Cambridge Analytics.



Read about: Christopher Wylie, and Brittany Kaiser, each whom now... advocate to consider the system usage of peoples personal data as a tool that has been weaponized against society, especially in the Political and Voting Arena.

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How was Cambridge able to create such loyalty? Trump and his voters have been beset by a barrage of focus grouped slurs since election day something in the range of 95% negative coverage? You'd think if the support was that shallow it would have abandoned him.
You mentioned red states and red districts.....wasn't the Republican going to win those anyway? It would be like Hillary campaigning in California rather than Wisconsin.
But I am more interested in the "grooming". The left grooms their voters at university, public schools and through identity politics those and their total dominance in the media and Hollywood.
How does the right even exist? Must frustrate the heck ......
Sorry to take so long to reply. Watched a good game between the Eagles and Patriots.....maybe I was being groomed

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Waddy said:

Companies have to go where the profit margin is highest. Their job isn't social justice, it's to maximize profit. They pass that profit to shareholders. Shareholders include your pension plan, 401K's, public sector retirements, and even college endowments, which are huge. If one company moves offshore and gains a competitive edge, most other companies will have to follow. It's just plain economics.

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Well...that's certainly how we have imagined and implemented our economy, and now it's as if hardly anyone can imagine anything else. So when you say that companies "have to go" to where profits are highest, the necessity is only contingent on how we've structured and understood our economy. Change that, and suddenly the necessity evaporates.

One way to understand my posts in this thread is as simply exposing the consequences of the economic system we have now, the implication being that those consequences are bad, they're getting worse, and we will be forced to change at some point, but probably soon, or face a very grim future indeed.

Waddy said:

Coming out of WWII many nations needed favorable trade deals. We signed onto them in order to boost trade and contain Communism. We were the last man standing, and could afford to be generous. But times have changed; those countries are now our competitors. We need new trade deals that level the playing field. We need deals that make offshore producers meet American environmental standards (EPA), that insure worker safety standards (OSHA), offer retirements, health care, sick leave, adequate wages, Workmen's Comp, even vacation days. We need trade agreements that protect copyright, make offshore companies civilly liable for product defects (consumer protection), and offset low offshore taxation with some tariffs, which we should use for R&D.

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That'd all certainly be a start, but I'd go much farther.

Waddy said:

Do you remember the Chinese wallboard scandal? We imported millions of dollars of defective Chinese wallboard and used it to construct homes all over the country. It turned moldy and promoted "black wire" when it was used. The Chinese manufacturers were untouchable; they sold the wallboard through US based front companies. When the lawsuits started rolling in they simply folded those companies, and consumers could not sue in China. Did the same thing with lead in toys, and tainted milk products. We need to fix that problem in future trade deals.

Click to expand...

Yes, surely.

Waddy said:

Doing all this will level the playing field, but the wealth gap, due to technology and automation will never go away. When mass agricultural machines started eliminating farm jobs we had a "manufacturing revolution" in progress that gave those displaced farmers a new way of making a living. So they moved to the cities. Technology back then in fact did create more new jobs than it eliminated. Today's technology won't do that. There is no "manufacturing revolution" on the horizon to absorb the labor surplus produced by automation. So we will have a relatively smaller class of people who benefit from this new system and a much larger class of under-employed laborers.

Click to expand...

Seems correct to me.

Waddy said:

One other point; ALL the politicians on both sides are globalists.

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I would hesitate to make that kind of sweeping claim. Surely not literally all politicians are globalists.

Waddy said:

They thought, go ahead and let Asia have those labor intensive and polluting industries. We'll keep high tech. But for high tech to work you need a highly technical workforce. That would be the job of public schools.

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You have a much more optimistic view of how those politicians and economic elites think about American citizens generally than I do.

Waddy said:

They failed miserably. So we've tried applying sound best business practices to education. Lot of testing to get baselines and measure progress. Lots of new "scientific" approaches to learning. Give every student a laptop. It hasn't worked out very well. We still underachieve. Basic fact; countries that prosper in high tech have high tech education that works. Our public school system is much too PC for that to ever happen here.

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I work in education (university professor) and I think the problems with public education are much deeper.