Who destroyed businesses in the USA, it certainly was not liberals

CEO's and stockholders are the ones mainly responsible for businesses, especially manufacturing leaving the country. Cons like to say it was government regulation, but they know it came down to greater earnings by moving manufacturing overseas to low wage areas of the world. If started with Japan, then moved to South Korea and China and now is slowly moving again to places like South Vietnam, India and Indonesia. Always looking for the one more buck of profit. Even in this country some states have passed laws that do not allow employee salary increases without permission of the companies stock holders. they see all money within the company as belonging to the stockholders. It is one reason so many companies have moved their headquarter to New Jersey. So blaming regulations for these moves is the Cons way of deflecting from what they know as the truth.

It was those gosh damned yoonyuns and their pensions.

independentusa said:

CEO's and stockholders are the ones mainly responsible for businesses, especially manufacturing leaving the country. Cons like to say it was government regulation, but they know it came down to greater earnings by moving manufacturing overseas to low wage areas of the world. If started with Japan, then moved to South Korea and China and now is slowly moving again to places like South Vietnam, India and Indonesia. Always looking for the one more buck of profit. Even in this country some states have passed laws that do not allow employee salary increases without permission of the companies stock holders. they see all money within the company as belonging to the stockholders. It is one reason so many companies have moved their headquarter to New Jersey. So blaming regulations for these moves is the Cons way of deflecting from what they know as the truth.

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The current state of business in America, the wealth disparity, income inequalities, manufacturing overseas, ect was not caused by the right or the left. It was caused by Americans. It was caused by consumers. It was caused by each and every American.

Businesses don't make decisions. Consumers do. Businesses do what consumers demand. McMillon/Waltons don't really make the decisions that drive Walmart. Steve Jobs and Tim Cook didn't/don't make the decisions for Apple. Consumers do. The CEO's and heads of companies simply react to consumer demands. Jobs move overseas because consumers demand that jobs move overseas. Manufacturing moves when consumers demand they move. The "1%ers" exist because consumers decided to make them exist.

This specific problem is not driven by a political party.

Kreton said:

The current state of business in America, the wealth disparity, income inequalities, manufacturing overseas, ect was not caused by the right or the left. It was caused by Americans. It was caused by consumers. It was caused by each and every American.

Businesses don't make decisions. Consumers do. Businesses do what consumers demand. McMillon/Waltons don't really make the decisions that drive Walmart. Steve Jobs and Tim Cook didn't/don't make the decisions for Apple. Consumers do. The CEO's and heads of companies simply react to consumer demands. Jobs move overseas because consumers demand that jobs move overseas. Manufacturing moves when consumers demand they move. The "1%ers" exist because consumers decided to make them exist.

This specific problem is not driven by a political party.

Click to expand...

This is incorrect, at least in my experience, which is considerable and relevant. Business managers and owners have learned ways to dictate what consumers do, at least statistically speaking.

For example, manufacturers began moving automobile manufacturing overseas at a non-negligible rate in the 1970s, and sold it as something that would be good for consumers, since it was (at the time) only a few jobs, and the lower labor costs would drive down the price of automobiles for all. But that's not what happened. When the lower labor costs were reaped, the big three actually raised the retail price of automobiles slightly, while taking the profits for themselves and the company owners. But, of course, in American cities, and thanks to lots of auto-industry lobbying, you need a car to get around, and so those economic elites could count on receiving slightly more of each American family's yearly budget, plus paying lower labor costs, all for the low-low price of having also weakened the U.S. economy.

Of course, the story is more complex still, as the decline of the U.S. auto industry was largely precipitated by moving jobs overseas and dismantling geographically concentrated chains of production (which model still obtains for Japanese and European automakers). But those decisions were taken by managers of the Big Three as a means of minimizing worker power in the face of increasing unionization.

I think you'll have a hard time explaining how consumers in the 1970s were demanding the same cars at slightly increased prices, while also demanding that jobs leaves these shores. Obviously, U.S. consumers demanded no such thing.

independentusa said:

CEO's and stockholders are the ones mainly responsible for businesses, especially manufacturing leaving the country. Cons like to say it was government regulation, but they know it came down to greater earnings by moving manufacturing overseas to low wage areas of the world. If started with Japan, then moved to South Korea and China and now is slowly moving again to places like South Vietnam, India and Indonesia. Always looking for the one more buck of profit. Even in this country some states have passed laws that do not allow employee salary increases without permission of the companies stock holders. they see all money within the company as belonging to the stockholders. It is one reason so many companies have moved their headquarter to New Jersey. So blaming regulations for these moves is the Cons way of deflecting from what they know as the truth.

Click to expand...

Technically, it is government regulation. The people trumpeting that message want such protections as minimum wage and child labor laws to go away, so that they'll be free to force their fellow Americans to work for a dollar a day, or something like that--never mind that it's impossible for a worker to support herself on that kind of wage.

independentusa said:

CEO's and stockholders are the ones mainly responsible for businesses, especially manufacturing leaving the country. Cons like to say it was government regulation, but they know it came down to greater earnings by moving manufacturing overseas to low wage areas of the world. If started with Japan, then moved to South Korea and China and now is slowly moving again to places like South Vietnam, India and Indonesia. Always looking for the one more buck of profit. Even in this country some states have passed laws that do not allow employee salary increases without permission of the companies stock holders. they see all money within the company as belonging to the stockholders. It is one reason so many companies have moved their headquarter to New Jersey. So blaming regulations for these moves is the Cons way of deflecting from what they know as the truth.

Click to expand...

Go back and look at the George Wallace racism to the Goldwater Racist Agenda, then look at Richard Nixon who adopted Goldwater's racist dreams, then you find Ronald Reagan did everything he could to carry bias and bigotry wrapped in racism forward.. Reagan took funding from Community Colleges and State Universities to block women and minorities from gaining an education uplift. These men together set the process in motion to elevate the cost of higher education and then placed "degree requirements on even the silliest of jobs that any 10th or 11th grader can do, and administrative jobs that any high school graduate can do.

Nixon opened the door to "EXPORT" Ore Process, and in doing so set in motion to break Unions, because the Union Pathway to Middle Class living standards had been opened to women and minorities. He could not bear the thought of a white woman earning the same as a white man, and certainly he detested the thought of black men and black women earning the same as a white man in a Union Shop....

No only was he loosing his economic dominance over white women, he could not relegated the crappies jobs to blacks and pay them less... So... his choice was ... TO OUTSOURCE... to keep the wealth white male a the higher end of Profit Gains...

It all backfired!! Now, America is in Debt to a level of 105% of GDP... Running deficits in the $100+ Billions and expected to go into a $Trillion... and by the world standards, that Equals... "Insolvency".... which means ... the Global Nations can charge high interest rates to keep America at least at a level where its debt does not reach mouth and nose level... but as of date we are fare beyond just being up to our neck in debt....

The wealthy who created this mess... will find over time... inflation will make their money look very different, People seem to forget is was only a decade ago, during the damages Republicans did to the economy, that Nordic Regions did not want to touch the US Dollar, and as the world plans its changes they will begin to use "other currency as a trade currency, for a great many of their trade agreements. The only thing that kept the U.S. Dollar in the basket is the Petro Dollar systems, but nations are looking at more green tech and renewable energy, and that means less reliance on Petro...

America Racism has always damaged society... and did much damage in other nations of the world, and stood by as a means of supporting racism in some places, as it did with the Apartheid system in Africa... until it was inevitable that such racism would not advance itself to the 21st Century...

Trump called African nations 'shet holes" because he is fully aware that American white man can't go there and create any more white nationalist agreement that rips and strip and rob and loot the lands and the people.


The 21st Century and those who are becoming adults this very day and time, don't buy into the old racist vile, and the younger ones are learning how the system was rigged against them, and they watch the debt game consume and damage the generation before them... and together they will "squash that madness" and in doing so, they will rebuild with new technology, but they will also do so with international cooperative agreements... and they will create interstate collaborations with business development in all 50 states, any states that put up a rebellious opposition, will only find themselves behind.

ashurbanipal said:

This is incorrect, at least in my experience, which is considerable and relevant. Business managers and owners have learned ways to dictate what consumers do, at least statistically speaking.

For example, manufacturers began moving automobile manufacturing overseas at a non-negligible rate in the 1970s, and sold it as something that would be good for consumers, since it was (at the time) only a few jobs, and the lower labor costs would drive down the price of automobiles for all. But that's not what happened. When the lower labor costs were reaped, the big three actually raised the retail price of automobiles slightly, while taking the profits for themselves and the company owners. But, of course, in American cities, and thanks to lots of auto-industry lobbying, you need a car to get around, and so those economic elites could count on receiving slightly more of each American family's yearly budget, plus paying lower labor costs, all for the low-low price of having also weakened the U.S. economy.

Of course, the story is more complex still, as the decline of the U.S. auto industry was largely precipitated by moving jobs overseas and dismantling geographically concentrated chains of production (which model still obtains for Japanese and European automakers). But those decisions were taken by managers of the Big Three as a means of minimizing worker power in the face of increasing unionization.

I think you'll have a hard time explaining how consumers in the 1970s were demanding the same cars at slightly increased prices, while also demanding that jobs leaves these shores. Obviously, U.S. consumers demanded no such thing.

Click to expand...

That is incorrect. American consumers were purchasing cars manufactured overseas because they were less expensive due to labor manufacturing costs. When American manufacturing went overseas consumers decided to continue purchasing that car. That decision to purchase cars manufactured overseas severely impacted other manufacturers and those that wanted to survive had a choice to make. Follow suit or go under.

The price wars of Ford and Chevy - driven by consumer demand for cheaper cars -forced them to make decisions. Quick way to lower cars is cheap labor and few manufacturing restrictions. It worked.

That follows suit for most industries.

When consumers have a choice between company A (manuf here for more money) and company B (manuf overseas for less money) and they choose B they are forcing A to move as well. And largely it isn't because they can't afford it. People are just as greedy as corporations.

The idea of cheap merchandise and high labor doesn't work. We can't have both.

Helix said:

It was those gosh damned yoonyuns and their pensions.

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Well you're closer to the facts than you usually are. However, somewhat ironically, the pension(s) in the biggest trouble are public employee ones; most of which were established and controlled by liberal politicians. And of course the biggest one was created by the biggest progressive administration: FDR.

Unions? They had a purpose at one time but unfortunately have veered off the tracks to become lobbyists for every progressive brain fart. Probably why they've suffered such dramatic membership losses.

Bullseye said:

Well you're closer to the facts than you usually are. However, somewhat ironically, the pension(s) in the biggest trouble are public employee ones; most of which were established and controlled by liberal politicians. And of course the biggest one was created by the biggest progressive administration: FDR.

Unions? They had a purpose at one time but unfortunately have veered off the tracks to become lobbyists for every progressive brain fart. Probably why they've suffered such dramatic membership losses.

Click to expand...

Republican scumbags routinely try to chip away at my deferred income even though the pension is fully funded. i look forward to voting against them in future elections.

Kreton said:

The current state of business in America, the wealth disparity, income inequalities, manufacturing overseas, ect was not caused by the right or the left. It was caused by Americans. It was caused by consumers. It was caused by each and every American.

Businesses don't make decisions. Consumers do. Businesses do what consumers demand. McMillon/Waltons don't really make the decisions that drive Walmart. Steve Jobs and Tim Cook didn't/don't make the decisions for Apple. Consumers do. The CEO's and heads of companies simply react to consumer demands. Jobs move overseas because consumers demand that jobs move overseas. Manufacturing moves when consumers demand they move. The "1%ers" exist because consumers decided to make them exist.

This specific problem is not driven by a political party.

Click to expand...

Respectfully disagree.
The entire Walton family, especially their father, Sam Walton, are and always were lifelong Republicans and talked of conservative values ever since the first Walmart was opened in the 1950's. The difference is in the KIND of conservative then and now.
Sam believed domestic manufacturing was the key to his success.
The very second the old man was in the ground, his children reversed that belief and in the blink of an eye 85 to 90% of all goods in Walmarts were Chinese made.

Uh...there are less than 4000 publicly traded companies listed today on US markets. Do you think that's all the businesses there are in the US?

The US economy has been at least since the 60's designated a "Consumer Based Economy". That means consumer spending is what drives the economy not manufacturing.

What that means is if you lower costs to manufacture something, you lower prices in an effort to compete with other companies offering the same product. Lower prices increases consumption, theoretically. (I use this as a caveat to prevent "but what about...")

Delaware, not New Jersey is the State of choice for incorporation. With over half of publicly traded companies in the US being incorporated there.


I'm thinking maybe more Economics and Finance classes and less Justice Studies coursework would do you a world of good...just a suggestion.

:roll:

independentusa said:

CEO's and stockholders are the ones mainly responsible for businesses, especially manufacturing leaving the country. Cons like to say it was government regulation, but they know it came down to greater earnings by moving manufacturing overseas to low wage areas of the world. If started with Japan, then moved to South Korea and China and now is slowly moving again to places like South Vietnam, India and Indonesia.

Click to expand...

By doing so, the greedy capitalists have brought billions of people out of poverty in formally third world countries. Funny how you guys never mention that part.

On top of that, the greedy capitalists have also greatly benefited poor and middle-class people in the US by providing them with consumer goods at much lower prices.

independentusa said:

CEO's and stockholders are the ones mainly responsible for businesses, especially manufacturing leaving the country. Cons like to say it was government regulation, but they know it came down to greater earnings by moving manufacturing overseas to low wage areas of the world. If started with Japan, then moved to South Korea and China and now is slowly moving again to places like South Vietnam, India and Indonesia. Always looking for the one more buck of profit. Even in this country some states have passed laws that do not allow employee salary increases without permission of the companies stock holders. they see all money within the company as belonging to the stockholders. It is one reason so many companies have moved their headquarter to New Jersey. So blaming regulations for these moves is the Cons way of deflecting from what they know as the truth.

Click to expand...

This is a really difficult situation for anyone and everyone. Executives are competing for profit like every other executive in this country. They use the laws to maximize profits for the shareholders so they can keep their job. The shareholders, INCLUDING 401K and RETIREMENT managers are competing with each other to return the highest profits to their customers. They have to find the companies who are maximizing profits, not maximizing social justice.

The only way the government can correct this situation is to look at the calculations the executives are making and adjust them to be more balanced. Tariffs based on both regulation and wage equality would be great. Do we really want to pay 150 dollars for a pair of sneakers made by a person with no health insurance, safety regulations, clean water, sick leave, vacation or anything else. We say we do not but we are told all of our prices are going to increase with taxes.

I say apply the tariffs gradually over a five year period so it is not absolutely disruptive to the system. While the tariffs are increasing, our government can enact additional laws that help control the income level of rich people to poor people.

Last but not least, and this is across the board. Chevy, Ford and Dodge were the largest car companies in the world. They literally got their asses beat in Europe and Asia by companies who cared more about the customer than the profits. Those companies put quality and/or product functionality above profit. Toyota and Volkswagen are now the biggest car companies in the world. I am sure other international companies will climb that ranking thru product quality and not corporate mergers.

aociswundumho said:

By doing so, the greedy capitalists have brought billions of people out of poverty in formally third world countries. Funny how you guys never mention that part.

On top of that, the greedy capitalists have also greatly benefited poor and middle-class people in the US by providing them with consumer goods at much lower prices.

Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct that capitalist and the entire world economy has expanded amazingly well. It might have expanded a tad to much for the third world countries and slowed down a tad too much in this nation.

My question would be are we retaining our standard of living by increasing our Federal deficit by the trade imbalance and even more? When will all of these imbalances normalize?

The average person has no idea what the origins of idea was that created "Stock Markets". It was to allow the average worker and institutional investors to invest in corporations... The goal was: To Support Company Stability, Research and Development, and MANAGED GROWTH.

In early time Company President were the tier that managed the company, and the QUARTERLY REPORTING SYSTEM, was designed so each quarter they could measure production and sales to determine profit.

The Stock Market was for "LONG TERM INVESTORS" is was not designed for the Flip and Spin, Speculation and Derivatives. It was never designed for the game of CDS (Credit Default Swaps), and it was not designed for "over expansion" that was not justified and managed. It was not for "day traders to bleed off resources.

The Era leading up to the 1920's so all these Financial Gaming models move into the arena, and by 1929, the speculation game and all its instruments led to the Crash of 1929. The game of the wealthy buying on Margin, with practically no skin in the game, who then could not make the margin calls.

It was not designed for Merger's and Take Over... and doing so based on "debt"... that game took off in the 1980's with the Junk Bond programming,

People today, some are too young to remember and others just don't know, the game that led to the crash of the Saving and Loans... nor do many know about Enron, Aldephi and Global Crossing... all major messes that damaged the economy, by "accounting gaming" called the Arthur Anderson, Accounting Scandal... Enron did such damage to the Pension system; Couple this with the removal of Glass–Steagall Act of 1932, which established a separation between banks and investment houses. And then came the later years game of "MBS" - Mortgage Backed Securities, that began to use the foundational stability of Mortgage Bonds which previously had a low yield, because they were not based on spin and drama and speculation, they were based on "American Home-ownership and Home Valuation, which was not set on a wild ride trajectory of fast escalation in valuation.

As to Corporations, when they began to expand where they did not have market shares and overstocked their stores to give the Illusion of performance, and then cycled and programmed liquidation, wrapped in promoting high speculative gains, and then selling the overstock to secondary sellers, and telling stock holders that the dividend would be less because they did not meet the goal.. all the while "trading frenzy was going wild based on pure speculation... They no longer cared so much about "actual performance" based on historical models, they cared about what the "stock ticker trading frenzy could sell a stock for"... even knowing stocks were excessively over valued and under performing and could not meet the projections.. but they could play the 'broker spins and drive up the stock ticker value"... They used that fake value to borrow and then to try and buy out any competition, that later led to "buying companies that had nothing in common with the core business"... Example: Pepsi, ended up a long list of companies and brands. this created a network of business to offset any of the lower performing ones, and the stock game could engage speculation based on such modeling.
This modeling has seen the masses of companies being sucked up under "the umbrella of single entities".. reducing competition down to a few big names, who control a high volume of brands.
The system produced vast "over stocking" and this led to the rise of the Dollar Stores with an unending supply of liquidated goods. The winners is the Preferred and Blue Chip Stock Holders... the rest get fleeced in the spin cycle.

The CEO became beholding to only the Stock Holders, the company was then a figurative elements, to back the speculation, win, loose or draw on the profit side, the stock holders had increased their value and could leverage that value with drain offs as well as use it for justifying more acquisition, then selling off components of what they acquired and ultimately dismantling anything that posed a potential for competition.

Today, the Tech Companies like Google, Amazon are doing the exact same thing when it comes to tech... they buy out anything that pose competetion and after a couple of years, de-commission it... and set out to go after the next Target.

Amazon and Google are the Monsters of Tech, the same as people saw Walmart Become the monsters of the 1980's 1990's and early to mid 2000... then came the rise of Amazon... it destroyed book stores first and now it goes after everything !!!! Google Bought up YouTube and now Youtube goes after Movies Studios, and Amazon goes after them from the other angles.

The American public is not very financiall literate and certainly not literate in seeing the cycles of "Gobble up and spit out competition".

Companies like Sears, was ran by Imbeciles... Montgomery Ward fell first, then came Kmarts and Now JC Penny is on the ropes. Yet... Sears has Catalogs long before there was a thought of internet, and if they had used the technology they would be what Amazon is today. But, Sears did not modernize and they relied on the old head of a generations ago, they did not expand their product line and did not update the inventory, by the time the dedicated themselves to selling imports, they were no longer the Mega Merchant to market American Produced Products. they lost of every level, by not understanding how to address generational change in consumers.

Kmart survived many of such type stores that came and fell... but while Kmart had built up based on many Japanese products, they did not see or concern itself with the rise of the low quality cheap goods that China was mass producing. So Walmart moved in and signed companies to "exclusive agreements", and penalized the companies if they sold to anyone else and even more penalty if they sold to others at the price point that Walmart agreed to.

When Computers came instead of IBM and XEROX moving to dominate the computer production and printer and copier production in America, they allowed the vast profit potential of computer production to go to Foreign Shores. They sold America on the idea, by telling the gullible, that America could not compete, and so the gullible bought it, and had no thought that America wages were tired to American Standards of Living, and they ignored the fact that American's could be trained OJT just like the Chinese to produce these units. The Retail Prices are as if these were built by America level wages, but the production cost is done at slave wage labor.

The gullible America's paid the high price for the units, but got no benefit of having jobs to produce it. So.. corporations raked in astronomical profits with very low overhead.. which means, the "executive wealth gap increased 1000 fold +.... and still what people pay for foreign products is a cost as if American level wages was paid to produce it.

A few years ago, the factors estimated that a pair of Tennis shoes may cost maybe $7 to produce and ship and get to American markets, but the Retail price saw tennis shoes skyrocket to astronomical levels... and today, they use even cheaper lower grade materials while the prices continue to increase.
The average Tennis shoes if worn daily may last 3 months, the biggest difference a person gets between a $30 discount pair, and a $100 elite label... is "the quality of the "insert'. People got sold on "name brand", when fact is many of the lesser cost brands could simply be upgraded by buying a quality "insert" for around $20..

Now, the cheaper models now come with soles that have no grip and will slip and slide on even non wet floors.

The marketers found out, the higher profit is in generating a higher frequency of need to repurchase. Apple has used that to the maximum degree and people fall for it on a 9 month cycle, at an every increasing price point.

Online shopping will hit a snag... because there are many areas that "leaving packages" simply does work and attracts a criminal elements that is only going to increase.

Young people will develop means to address it, but if left up to the older generation, they don't have a clue... if people look at some of the older Right Wingers, there are many who still struggle with ATM Debit Cards...

I think before long people will get wise to Amazon's tactics, and people will get wise as they have to Cable Companies, which started out as "Commercial Free Paid Subscription", they lobbied until they demolished local analog programming, and when they did so, they added more commercials than old style Analog Tv had. Today, Cable Companies fleece people by forcing excessive TV Commercials into a shows until now, one may get 35-40 minutes of a 1 hr time slot, and its fast invading the "streaming systems' whick will become "commercial heavy" as it becomes more wide spread. Many don't remember when people were sold "giant satellite dishes"... the same as systems changed from the Era of the Video Disc Players, that saw the VHS demolish them, and then the DVD demolished the VHS and now Streaming has taken a damaging impact on DVD.

At some point Streaming will have to become to America, what Freeways are to highway systems, it will have to move away from individual providers fleecing the people, and make it "al la carte". The internet will change as well when fiber optics is fully in place, and there will have to become a system where one does not have to have a designated provider. One pays for an IP address and bandwidth and not be constrained by packaged programming by a provider for internet access. Too much is connected to the Internet, to allow it to be continue to be dominated by a select few service providers. It may become a form of "tax supported internet"... Content providers will then sell their content to subscribers, with an IP access the same as streaming service offer. Content providers pay for bandwidth to stream their content, and apps by content providers can be purchased by the individual. Internet access will be free like the access is to freeways, but a tax is paid to support it. then one can get on and off at any off ramp they choose and travel it as much as they want.

The world will continue to change...

Helix said:

Republican scumbags routinely try to chip away at my deferred income even though the pension is fully funded. i look forward to voting against them in future elections.

Click to expand...

How exactly are they "chipping away"?

There is a modeling and agenda reasons why you will "never" find a Walmart in a Wealthy Community. Middle Class upper Income will not allow Dollar Tree or Family Dollar stores in their areas. Target Stores play the "middle ground" they market themselves to "middle class" and above. They don't build their stores in low income areas and you will not see the same category of customers in a Target Store, that you find in a Walmart.

At some point, there will be "new models of merchant shops to open" but they will focus on "Specialty Product Lines", but they won't play the over expansion game that led former "Specialty Brand to get lost in the Shopping Mall" game. Many of those will be torn down, in some ways they were never cost effective, because the energy cost was astronomical and the floor space was excessive in cost. Various Specialist Brands now know its better they own the land and manage their space themselves. They can then "transition as needed" and they are fare more astute on how to develop and upgrade branding as needed to adjust with the changes in society. They can now do "on demand internet sales, but still maintain a physical presence. The game of internet undercutting fixed locations pricing will play out... because specialty brand will have a different type of investment to protect.

When these things come to be, Product Quality will improve, becasue the public is at its limit already with low quality products sold with fancy advertising and the product does not meet up to the advertising hype.

We likely will see a Supreme Court Class Actions, against "Fallacy in Advertising". and we will see product labeling that has to be more honest. Example: If anyone has bought a belt at places that claim its Leather, and come to find out over time its nothing more than a coated material over pressed cardboard. new materials will make that game obsolete.

The more the younger generations learn, the more they will force the change. Intellect does not take kindly to swindler ignorance....

Already young people are making a stand against the long game of "pretending that everyone has to go to college"... the college game damaged itself, by corralling Human Resource to promote the Master Degree and requiring it for jobs that a 12th grader can do. Nations in the Asian Pacific is utilizing what once made American industry function, and that's the usage of "On The Job Training"... Technology changes too quick, to say a person with a 10 yr old degree is qualified for a job, based on their outdated training. "On the Job Training" can change with the advance and do so rapidly and produce skilled labor.

this means a change in Schools.. some of the Nordic Regions have already changed their model, to develop "Job Ready People" straight out of High School, and they did it by changing the skill training to include it in the curriculum. They don't waste youth, with a programming to place them in a rationing program through the university script that spins them around until they are 24 or so.
The specialized professions for those that are dedicated to a specific profession will continue to be for that function, but University won't be able to continue to fleece people, selling them pointless outmoded degrees.

All this Right Wing flap of trying to recreate a system that died out 4 decades or more ago, will eventually fall upon the right wingers, even as they fight it, they can't overcome the changes that are destined in society.

Look around, hand held computing has changed the world, and the development of App's has taken over where once people need giant websites and massive investments in software. Now one can find an App for almost anything they want to do, and Apps now can be used to make other thing happens any a location far from where one resides.
Video phones was only fiction in the 1960's and communication devices of old science fiction are today, allow people to video talk any where they go, and stream in real time anything they want or anything they are doing.

When a Farmer can plow a field with a computer, using GPS and Robotics to control a tractor... if that does not awaken the old thinking Right Wingers.. then they are only pushing themselves further into the past.

Before every big change in the economy, there is the spike up and then comes the crash... and the crash is what forces "innovation and change"...

We are coming for a crash, because speculation and advertising is all that is driving the economy, and the stock spin... is banking on over speculative profits on industry that does not have the production capacity to meet the valuation the stock ticker claims.

It's like blowing a bubble gum bubble, it can only be blown so big before it becomes too thin and stretched and pops!!!!

It's like going to McDonalds to try and buy a Burger and fries and a coke, and it cost more than an hour income at minimum wage. That modeling simply does not have a price to product relationship that can be sustained in a society where income levels are already below the standard necessary to meet the basic model of American promoted concept of Living Standards.

If anyone drive down to any place that has a series of "car lots" and look at the volume of cars that sit on those lots... they eventually have to be sold off to liquidators who can move them at a far lesser cost and a lesser mark up.

At some point, the Over production will have to change. Its not the old days when people changed cars every three years. Today, people have loans that go for 7 yrs... and warranties that cover more than 100k miles. So if a person drove an average in a city of 10k miles a year, that's now a 10 yr vehicle. With low and slow wages people just don't see a need to change cars as frequent as they did in decades past.

I have a 20 yrs old Mercedes, I bought in used 13 ys ago ...I spent maybe $8k over the past three years upgrading worn parts and paint and other things, and it looks and drives as good as any new car, and I've not had a car payment in over 20 yrs, because the Benz I had before I drove it for 8 yrs. When I factor in the maintenance cost, of what that $8k represents, it represents $400 a year of maintenance expense, that's without having a car payment. That amounts to $33 a month... and no one can get a car payment that is $33 a month. I did the same thing with my Truck, is it 23yrs old, and people compliment it every where I drive it.

Today, anything of technology I want to add, can be added... I see newer cars in the shop frequency... I tell my relative, buy you a quality care that was built well, and buy it after it has a few years on it... and take care of it. Save there money for other things, because most cars sit in parking lots for 8 hrs and then in the garage for the 8-12 hrs one is home, so what's the point in frequently changing and buying new cars every three years or so. Yes, I know it helps the economy, but maybe the economy since American lost its dominance in the Automobile Market, it is time for America to find new core products to build and develop and build supply chains based upon it. We long ago gave up the model where the American Automobile Production fueled thousands of collateral industries. Today, car parts are made all over the world... its not like one can find an Automobile with 100% American parts... heck one can barely find a Car Tire that is made in America with American workers and American Raw Materials.

Well what is clear is that it wasnt the unions creating those jobs in the first place, nor was it the liberals.

Unions are leeches...bloodsucking parasites that attach themselves to productive hosts and suck and suck until they kill the host and move on to another. Unions priced the American workers out of the jobs market. Unions built firewalls to protect weak, inept, and corrupt workers. For the whining bitching and crying leftists do about corporate America you would think there would be these successful union based businesses that are employing millions and showing everyone how its done.

Bullseye said:

How exactly are they "chipping away"?

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privatization schemes, mostly. we can't afford to pay you your deferred income, so hang on while we let others skim off of the top.

VanceMack said:

Well what is clear is that it wasnt the unions creating those jobs in the first place, nor was it the liberals.

Unions are leeches...bloodsucking parasites that attach themselves to productive hosts and suck and suck until they kill the host and move on to another. Unions priced the American workers out of the jobs market. Unions built firewalls to protect weak, inept, and corrupt workers. For the whining bitching and crying leftists do about corporate America you would think there would be these successful union based businesses that are employing millions and showing everyone how its done.

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I disagree, Union dues were very cheap for what they provided, now that there are no Unions providing the volume of medical benefits, the cost of medical coverage skyrocketd, the co pay in the course of a single year is more than Union dues would have cost over a decade of paying dues. Wages are stagnation, but corporation make profit in "$100's of Millions to $Billions every years, and some make that in 3 months"...
employees have no pension plan and wages remain stagnant and some don't provide even a cost of living increase.
One should learn about Labor and Industry before Unions... It was Unions that got the benefits and working conditions and safety standards to be improved in jobs, it was unions that were the last to stand in fighting against outsourcing.

The Right Wing Republican Confederacy that duped America to fight against Unions is what damaged society.
Who destroyed businesses in the USA, it certainly was not liberals

Society will move back to re-developing collective bargaining, because too many companies have sc-ewed over too many people, and cities and counties have lost too much in what they invested to help industry build and develop itself, and when these companies leave, communities are devastated as well as city resources and families are damaged. Young people care about having "voice in their lives" and within Union shops they have collective voice, without Unions, they have "no voice".

When States get more Democratic Governors, born with new generation mentality, they will abolish Right to Work programs... Right to Work was nothing but a design created to try and counter Affirmative Actions, and Affirmative Actions was only created because racism and ethnicity prejudices tried to find ways to deny people employment.
You should look and learn about the mentality of Southern white dominated industry during the George Wallace days, and you'd know how much prejudice and racism denied people opportunity and tried to limit the type of opportunity people could get.
Only Right Wingers and Right Leaning Independents still support systems that can be so damaging to people. but that old mentality has a far shorter life span today and as they pass on and new generations move forward, the old concepts built of racism and ethnicity bias will die out with them.

RealityNow said:

I disagree, Union dues were very cheap for what they provided, now that there are no Unions providing the volume of medical benefits, the cost of medical coverage skyrocketd, the co pay in the course of a single year is more than Union dues would have cost over a decade of paying dues. Wages are stagnation, but corporation make profit in "$100's of Millions to $Billions every years, and some make that in 3 months"...
employees have no pension plan and wages remain stagnant and some don't provide even a cost of living increase.
One should learn about Labor and Industry before Unions... It was Unions that got the benefits and working conditions and safety standards to be improved in jobs, it was unions that were the last to stand in fighting against outsourcing.

The Right Wing Republican Confederacy that duped America to fight against Unions is what damaged society.
Who destroyed businesses in the USA, it certainly was not liberals

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Union dues won them unemployment.

Well played.