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Family health coverage passes $20K this year

That is not necessarily true, and probably not true most of the time. Price them all out. Gold, silver, bronze, and catastrophic, what would you pay (including premiums) at each level of total health expenditure? Usually it's pretty close.

I've done this numerous times. I have an ultra-high deductible plan that covers nothing until that deductible is met. I want to know how much more or less I'd pay overall if I chose a silver, and often I'd actually pay more, and with gold, I'd pay more. As difficult as the ultra-high deductible would be to have to shell out, if I'm not actually better off in any allegedly "more generous" plan, why would I choose any of those plans?

No.. that is true. PRice them all out.. and people that have a ton of medical bills.. need more insurance than that. Its not just the deductible.. its the copays.. etc.

I have multiple patients who love that they have the "gold insurance".. because if they have sever medical problems.. they have a lot less out of pocket costs than if they had to pay a high deductible year after year.. plus premium...

I have a 24 year old with MS. They have a 1000 dollar deductible and her premium is 500 a month.. She meets her deductible by January 30 of every year.

Now imagine a 6,000 deductible and a premium of 350 a month (the next plan available to her). She would much rather pay 7000 per year. Vs 10,200 a year

(of course its much less because she gets insurance through her husbands work. ) and hopefully she will live to be at least 50. Do the math.

The high deductible works out for people that aren't sick every year and hitting that high deductible every year.
 
You're just pulling that political answer out of thin air. ACA metal tier plans already do that.


The public option would definitely be contracted out to private company to administer, and it would play by basically all the same rules as the metal tier plans through the ACA.

Attacking the ACA doesn't build the case for Congress to suddenly be effective.

It's not a conspiracy theory that progressives are attacking the ACA and don't want to fix it.


1: Even if that's true, and I don't think it is, not really, unless we provide considerable expanded subsidy to private insurers, I rather doubt that the ACA market place system with all its fragmentation would provide care in a more cost effective manner than a consolidated public insurance option.

2: Again, even if its administration was contracted out to a private insurer, that doesn't address the totality of my points concerning relative ease of adjustments to the PO program, formation of a greater standard by which the private sector will be judged, consolidation of tax payer dollars away from what is almost certain to be a comparatively inefficient subsidy/tax payer dollar give away to multiple private insurers versus more efficient consolidation in a public option that has superior powers of negotiation for cost control as per the CBO, and can serve as a robust, graduated path to singlepayer, etc....

3: No, but primarying and defeating industry shills like Joe Lieberman and getting them out of government certainly does. Political pressure, effective bully pulpit, and party whips all help.

4: No. It's more that fixed or not, progressives don't think ACA goes far enough, and they're right; to state what should be obvious isn't to attack ACA, nor is critiquing ACA's failings earnestly. Not only will it probably not achieve universal coverage, fixes or not, but it will do relatively little to get our health costs and spend anywhere close to being on par with the rest of the developed world.

Which pretty much shows just how weak the support is...

...otherwise the other high risk patients are already covered under either Medicaid or private insurance. The group that is not currently covered by insurance.. is NOT the high risk group. They are not elderly or disabled. And in general are healthy enough to work enough that they don't meet Medicaid requirements.. but don't make enough to afford healthcare. So the reality is that to cover those that don't have insurance... we DON"T need to increase subsidy of high risk patients. Because the group without insurance is not these folks.

Clipped for brevity.

A: No, it shows you that there is an overall and substantial lean towards the PO that is subject to influence and advocacy. Again, even when you slam the PO with absolutely no positive arguments in its favour, it still has 40% support, which is substantial. By contrast, a neutral presentation has super majoritarian support.

B: That a specific implementation of the PO at a certain point of time did not permit employers to buy into the PO does not forbid another version of the PO from allowing them to do so, especially when even more moderate Democrats these days look to the PO as a bridge to singlepayer, nor does it forbid the subsequent expansion of that same specific PO proposal to accept employer buy ins.

C: I already did several times, but sure, here it is again: CBO Predicts Medicare Public Buy-In Would Lead to Higher Insured Rates and Lower Costs | Consumer Watchdog | Budget Options, Volume 1: Health Care | Congressional Budget Office

D: I said help, not completely mitigate. In otherwords, while I'm sure that the overall risk pool for the PO would be worse than that of private insurers, as the PO provides guaranteed and affordable healthcare to those with pre-existing and serious conditions, a good chunk of that elevated risk should be offset by the PO's attractiveness to more healthy citizens.

E: Again, there are far too many cracks in the current system, and not all of them are filled by Medicare or Medicaid. If you have pre-existing and serious conditions, and don't qualify for either of these, unless you have more money than god, you're basically ****ed in terms of getting private insurance. Moreover, even among people who are relatively healthy, quality, individually purchased insurance can be prohibitive, especially among poorer Americans, or even those in the lower middle class.
 
This is why I don't think employers offer health coverage. 46% of all small and medium businesses (with less than 200 employees) don’t offer traditional employer-sponsored health insurance. That’s over 2.7 million employers. 56% of all micro employers (with less than 10 employees) don’t offer traditional employer sponsored health insurance. That’s 2.6 million employers. Many people are unemployed, between jobs or not working prior to retirement. Somewhere around 10 million people don't have coverage in the US. How do HSA's help them?
 
No.. that is true. PRice them all out.. and people that have a ton of medical bills.. need more insurance than that. Its not just the deductible.. its the copays.. etc.

I have multiple patients who love that they have the "gold insurance".. because if they have sever medical problems.. they have a lot less out of pocket costs than if they had to pay a high deductible year after year.. plus premium...

I have a 24 year old with MS. They have a 1000 dollar deductible and her premium is 500 a month.. She meets her deductible by January 30 of every year.

Now imagine a 6,000 deductible and a premium of 350 a month (the next plan available to her). She would much rather pay 7000 per year. Vs 10,200 a year

(of course its much less because she gets insurance through her husbands work. ) and hopefully she will live to be at least 50. Do the math.

I have done the math. The math I've done has never worked out like that, where the total OOP cost including premiums between two plans is significantly different (and $10k vs. $7k is significant). What was the OOP max of each of those plans?

The comparative total OOP cost curves (including premiums) of various plans almost always work out to be pretty similar, give or take a few hundred dollars in one direction or the other at significant levels of total health expenditure.
 
no that was only part of the goal the other goal was to make healthcare affordable i mean it was in the name the affordable care act.
yet it did no such thing.

Incorrect, the purpose was to insure people, the affordable part was supposed to help more people get coverage. Saved me a ton of money annually since it was put in place.
 
you have no clue what you are talking about.
if you work for any major company full time then you have access to healthcare, 401k, paid vacations etc...

the only time that you run into those issues are really small businesses and startups.

my company offers 3 different health plans from HSA to PPO.

i enjoy my PPO plan very much.

Congratulations on your coverage, don't leave your job for a small business... 46% of all small and medium businesses (with less than 200 employees) don’t offer traditional employer-sponsored health insurance. That’s over 2.7 million employers. 56% of all micro employers (with less than 10 employees) don’t offer traditional employer sponsored health insurance. That’s 2.6 million employers.
 
What proof do you have to back up these statements?

A large number of larger corporations are struggling to find high skill talent and upping the benefits and pay packages is a part of attracting and retaining that talent.


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46% of all small and medium businesses (with less than 200 employees) don’t offer traditional employer-sponsored health insurance. That’s over 2.7 million employers.
56% of all micro employers (with less than 10 employees) don’t offer traditional employer sponsored health insurance. That’s 2.6 million employers.
 
This is why I don't think employers offer health coverage. 46% of all small and medium businesses (with less than 200 employees) don’t offer traditional employer-sponsored health insurance. That’s over 2.7 million employers. 56% of all micro employers (with less than 10 employees) don’t offer traditional employer sponsored health insurance. That’s 2.6 million employers. Many people are unemployed, between jobs or not working prior to retirement. Somewhere around 10 million people don't have coverage in the US. How do HSA's help them?

HSAs help them by letting them save their money instead of hand it over to an insurance company.

People who aren't offered good coverage by an employer are consequently eligible for subsidies that limit their premium costs to less than 10% of the modified adjusted gross income. These people have the option to purchase expensive insurance, whereby they hand over a lot of money to the insurance company automatically, or cheap insurance, in which case they have the option to save the difference into an account which is money they can keep. If they're healthy, that money can accumulate and, when they do need to spend it, it's there to spend.

If you have the option to give an insurance company $10,000, or give them $5,000 but with the risk you might have to spend another $5,000 if you get pretty sick or injured, why would you choose to just give the insurance company all $10k?
 
HSAs help them by letting them save their money instead of hand it over to an insurance company.

People who aren't offered good coverage by an employer are consequently eligible for subsidies that limit their premium costs to less than 10% of the modified adjusted gross income. These people have the option to purchase expensive insurance, whereby they hand over a lot of money to the insurance company automatically, or cheap insurance, in which case they have the option to save the difference into an account which is money they can keep. If they're healthy, that money can accumulate and, when they do need to spend it, it's there to spend.

I love puppies and rainbows too, but it is disingenuous to suggest low-income people use HSA's when they struggle to pay for necessities for daily life.
 
I love puppies and rainbows too, but it is disingenuous to suggest low-income people use HSA's when they struggle to pay for necessities for daily life.

People who can't even afford the necessities of daily life are on Medicaid. They're not even a part of this discussion. If they are just slightly above Medicaid eligibility, they often pay $0.00 in premiums thanks to the APTCs and also get cost-sharing reductions if they choose silver plans (which are typically not HSA-eligible). So yes, there are some people who aren't benefited by HSAs, but that's because they already get something significantly more generous thanks to some other provision of our health care laws and regulations.
 
1: Even if that's true, and I don't think it is, not really, unless we provide considerable expanded subsidy to private insurers, I rather doubt that the ACA market place system with all its fragmentation would provide care in a more cost effective manner than a consolidated public insurance option.

2: Again, even if its administration was contracted out to a private insurer, that doesn't address the totality of my points concerning relative ease of adjustments to the PO program, formation of a greater standard by which the private sector will be judged, consolidation of tax payer dollars away from what is almost certain to be a comparatively inefficient subsidy/tax payer dollar give away to multiple private insurers versus more efficient consolidation in a public option that has superior powers of negotiation for cost control as per the CBO, and can serve as a robust, graduated path to singlepayer, etc....

3: No, but primarying and defeating industry shills like Joe Lieberman and getting them out of government certainly does. Political pressure, effective bully pulpit, and party whips all help.

4: No. It's more that fixed or not, progressives don't think ACA goes far enough, and they're right; to state what should be obvious isn't to attack ACA, nor is critiquing ACA's failings earnestly. Not only will it probably not achieve universal coverage, fixes or not, but it will do relatively little to get our health costs and spend anywhere close to being on par with the rest of the developed world.

Your speculation that a public option would be administered by a government agency requires some sort of evidence. I haven't seen any such thing. Further, you should read Greenbeard's posts #33 and #34 of this thread: Omamacare is Romneycare.. And note that Greenbeard has repeatedly expressed support for a public option.

My point isn't that a public option would be a disaster, it's that a lot of people seem to let their imaginations define what a public option would be or how it would work. It's those types of people who are setting themselves up (and as many others as will listen to them) for disappointments yet again.
 
Your speculation that a public option would be administered by a government agency requires some sort of evidence. I haven't seen any such thing. Further, you should read Greenbeard's posts #33 and #34 of this thread: Omamacare is Romneycare.. And note that Greenbeard has repeatedly expressed support for a public option.

My point isn't that a public option would be a disaster, it's that a lot of people seem to let their imaginations define what a public option would be or how it would work. It's those types of people who are setting themselves up (and as many others as will listen to them) for disappointments yet again.

The fact is that we do not actually know how it will be ultimately administered, especially given that there are no truly concrete proposals for a PO yet. It is certainly possible it might be privately administered, but again, whether or not it is doesn't obfuscate the other apparent benefits of a PO. Moreover, it is increasingly being looked at as a bridge to full on SP, even among relatively moderate Democrats, thus I would rather doubt that a PO in 2020 would resemble the initial proposed implementation back around 2008.
 
People who can't even afford the necessities of daily life are on Medicaid. They're not even a part of this discussion. If they are just slightly above Medicaid eligibility, they often pay $0.00 in premiums thanks to the APTCs and also get cost-sharing reductions if they choose silver plans (which are typically not HSA-eligible). So yes, there are some people who aren't benefited by HSAs, but that's because they already get something significantly more generous thanks to some other provision of our health care laws and regulations.

Medicaid is state by state, but using $16,500 annual income for a single person equals less than $1500 a month. 40 hours a week at $10.00 an hour, higher than required federal minimum wage, means about $20 k a year, so employees paid minimum wage would not qualify for medicaid. How much does this person put aside for retirement, unexpected non-medical expenses etc. HSA's are for rich people with plenty of disposable income.
 
Medicaid is state by state, but using $16,500 annual income for a single person equals less than $1500 a month. 40 hours a week at $10.00 an hour, higher than required federal minimum wage, means about $20 k a year, so employees paid minimum wage would not qualify for medicaid.

Using an outlier as an example doesn't really help. Not many people working $10/hour for 40 hours a week for 52 weeks a year. Working 30 or more at any one employer obligates the employer to offer insurance. If they're working multiple jobs all at $10 an hour and happen to fall into a loophole where health coverage is not generous, then that's a policy problem we should specifically focus on fixing. And until then, people who realize their additional work hours are actually screwing them will pull back on it to remain eligible for the more generous coverage. That's called a work disincentive and it happens when government fails to design policy properly (which happens a lot, it seems).

HSA's are for rich people with plenty of disposable income.

HSAs are not just for rich people. They're for anyone who has to choose between paying more of their own money for generous plan premiums vs. paying less of their money on premiums and saving the difference into an account they can keep. They're also for employers who know they're going to spend a lot on health benefits regardless, but discover they can benefit a lot of their employees significantly by using an HSA-eligible plan design versus just sending all of the money straight to the insurance company.

For you to be so opposed to HSAs across the board suggests you're not good at math and have never bothered to look and think.
 
Using an outlier as an example doesn't really help. Not many people working $10/hour for 40 hours a week for 52 weeks a year. Working 30 or more at any one employer obligates the employer to offer insurance. If they're working multiple jobs all at $10 an hour and happen to fall into a loophole where health coverage is not generous, then that's a policy problem we should specifically focus on fixing. And until then, people who realize their additional work hours are actually screwing them will pull back on it to remain eligible for the more generous coverage. That's called a work disincentive and it happens when government fails to design policy properly (which happens a lot, it seems).



HSAs are not just for rich people. They're for anyone who has to choose between paying more of their own money for generous plan premiums vs. paying less of their money on premiums and saving the difference into an account they can keep. They're also for employers who know they're going to spend a lot on health benefits regardless, but discover they can benefit a lot of their employees significantly by using an HSA-eligible plan design versus just sending all of the money straight to the insurance company.

For you to be so opposed to HSAs across the board suggests you're not good at math and have never bothered to look and think.

I disagree with your description of money saved. The only money you save from an HSA is the difference between pre- and post-tax expense. You still have to pay the premiums, you just do it with pre-tax income. I also dispute your description of who is getting health coverage. Speaking as if there are only 30+ employee companies around distorts reality. On my way to work today I bought a paper, filled my car with gas, and gabbed a cup of coffee. Not one of those 3 businesses had 30 employees.
 
I disagree with your description of money saved. The only money you save from an HSA is the difference between pre- and post-tax expense.

No. If you're choosing between a gold plan and bronze HSA plan, the money saved between the two also includes the premium cost difference.

I had to choose a plan for our family recently. I priced out oodles of them at every level of health expenditure. In almost every scenario, the bronze HSA-eligible plan left us better off overall financially than all the alternatives. There were a couple plans where, at one particular level of health need, they became a better overall plan financially than the bronze HSA, but only by a few hundred dollars, and only at a couple specific thresholds.

You still have to pay the premiums, you just do it with pre-tax income.

You can't pay premiums from HSA money. With an HSA you can push your health expenditures through the HSA and reduce your taxable income correspondingly. That's a benefit. But the other, bigger benefit is the premium cost difference between HDHPs and "generous" gold-type plans. That difference is money saved too.

Tens of millions of Americans don't have this choice, either because they're on Medicare or Medicaid, or because their employer chooses silver or gold equivalent coverage that isn't HSA eligible. But for everyone that has a choice to make, this difference needs to be calculated, and the benefit of choosing an HSA-eligible plan can be huge.
 
I'm sorry that you don't appear to understand anything pertaining to the origin of Obamacare. It was based on a Republican idea, and was a moderate-centrist compromise designed to appeal to Republicans, since its foundation (the mandate) was conceived and backed by the Heritage Foundation and implemented by Romney.

:lol: No :)

Democrats had a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Not a single Republican had a hand in writing the bill, nor did they edit it, nor did they vote for it. It would have been easy to peel off one of the moderate Republicans in the Senate (Susan Collins, for example), and Democrats were uninterested in even the fig leaf of changes it would have taken to achieve such a thing. The ACA was designed to be as far left as it could and still pass, with Democrat support and Democrat support only. The only thing bipartisan about the ACA was the opposition to it.
 
:lol: No :)

Democrats had a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Not a single Republican had a hand in writing the bill, nor did they edit it, nor did they vote for it. It would have been easy to peel off one of the moderate Republicans in the Senate (Susan Collins, for example), and Democrats were uninterested in even the fig leaf of changes it would have taken to achieve such a thing. The ACA was designed to be as far left as it could and still pass, with Democrat support and Democrat support only. The only thing bipartisan about the ACA was the opposition to it.

That is not fully true. While no Republican voted for it, the ACA had 147 Republican Amendments in the bill. I would also submit, that considering the Republican base's opposition to the ACA, it would been utterly pointless to try to get any Republicans to vote for it.

Your argument would be like if the Republicans passed a bill that banned all abortions and used a filibuster proof majority to do it. Then a few years later, a Democrat comes along in a political forum and says "No Democrats were involved in the writing of the bill, that bill was designed to be as far right as it could and still pass, with Republican support only."

You know as well as I do that the Republicans had zero interest in 2009-2010 to do anything to reform healthcare in this country.
 
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:lol: No :)

Democrats had a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Not a single Republican had a hand in writing the bill, nor did they edit it, nor did they vote for it. It would have been easy to peel off one of the moderate Republicans in the Senate (Susan Collins, for example), and Democrats were uninterested in even the fig leaf of changes it would have taken to achieve such a thing. The ACA was designed to be as far left as it could and still pass, with Democrat support and Democrat support only. The only thing bipartisan about the ACA was the opposition to it.

 
:lol: No :)

Democrats had a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Not a single Republican had a hand in writing the bill, nor did they edit it, nor did they vote for it. It would have been easy to peel off one of the moderate Republicans in the Senate (Susan Collins, for example), and Democrats were uninterested in even the fig leaf of changes it would have taken to achieve such a thing. The ACA was designed to be as far left as it could and still pass, with Democrat support and Democrat support only. The only thing bipartisan about the ACA was the opposition to it.

Keep doubling down on ignorance. You're not fooling anyone.

The reason Republicans opposed the ACA isn't because of the policy, it's because their base hated Obama for some mysterious, non-racist reason, and the Republicans leveraged this fact to oppose him for political benefit. It was politically advantageous to abandon their own ideas and call them socialist when Obama adopted them. That's what Republicans do. They're not honest actors; they're not interest in compromise. Any notion to the contrary is pure fantasy. Your party is broken; the entire conservative movement is now an intellectually bankrupt con job. Own it.
 
That isn't true. The great majority of workers aren't allowed to use them because their employer buys them insurance that is too generous to be allowed to participate in an HSA.

If instead of my employer paying $2,000 a month for gold plan insurance, the employer paid $1,000 a month for bronze plan insurance and put $750 a month into an HSA on my behalf, that would work very well for me, because at the end of a healthy year I'd have $9,000 to spend on health care that I could apply to a future year whenever I end up needing to spend some money on health care. Whereas at the end of a healthy year where my employer paid #2,000 a month for gold insurance, I'd have no extra savings, and would have to spend after-tax money on my health care.



Look at the figures I gave, which are evidence, and argue whether you consider that “considerable”. All you do is give an alternative argument of your own designed example, w/o any evidence, to only hijack the argument in a different direction w/o addressing forthrightly what I claimed. You don’t address the facts of my post. “That isn’t true” is a hollow reply unless you can refute my evidence and give your own to support your counter argument.
 
Congratulations on your coverage, don't leave your job for a small business... 46% of all small and medium businesses (with less than 200 employees) don’t offer traditional employer-sponsored health insurance. That’s over 2.7 million employers. 56% of all micro employers (with less than 10 employees) don’t offer traditional employer sponsored health insurance. That’s 2.6 million employers.

I have worked for small businesses before.
Facts are that 89% of americans get their health insurance through and employer.
most of those people get time off and paid vacation.
which runs counter to your hyperbolic claims earlier.

most people are told up front what the benefits to the job are before they take employment.
if they don't like the terms of employment they are free to find other employment.

most small businesses were offering HSA's until obama sank them out of business.
I still think that HSA's is the only way to really really lower medical costs.
 
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