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What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

It's not a zero sum game, and no one is looking to implement a Marxist economy. Because workers unite to protect their rights as contributors to the success of corporations doesn't make them anti-free market.

Which is justified: Workers uniting to protect their rights or owners uniting to protect their businesses and their rights?
 
That depends if there's an intermediary to keep businesses from being too short sighted. We've had a variety of market bubbles because of this short sightedness. The problem with the profit motive is it can blind you from looking at the long game, and we've been in that mode for quite some time. The private sector has also done well at getting involved politically to ensure legislation favors it in a variety of areas so it's not quite a free market where they are willing to accept the consequences of their irresponsibility. 2008 being a great example.

Marx opposed profits. He also opposed God and good market practices. He was a moron when it came to understanding what makes economies great and the people who work in the market system more prosperous and content.
 
Which is justified: Workers uniting to protect their rights or owners uniting to protect their businesses and their rights?

Both are within their rights to protect their interests. Neither exist in a vacuum and are dependent on each other.
 
Marx opposed profits. He also opposed God and good market practices. He was a moron when it came to understanding what makes economies great and the people who work in the market system more prosperous and content.

You can rail against Marx all you want, but up to now you have failed to address the exploitative factor he addressed regarding between businesses and workers. The bottom line is corporations are run by people, and people require parameters to be defined; typically by the society in which they're in. It's fine for businesses to be focused on profit, and other agencies (government etc.) to focus on other issues, but the impact of business practices affect more than just themselves. As we've seen in the past, business does not do a good job at managing these externalities well on its own.
 
Marx opposed profits. He also opposed God and good market practices. He was a moron when it came to understanding what makes economies great and the people who work in the market system more prosperous and content.

Moron? You clearly haven't read a single criticism he actually wrote of capitalism if you think he was a moron, and given your proclivity for religion and capitalist dogma, I can understand why you were shielded from the philosophical meanderings of a radical heathen like Marx.

Marx published a detailed and thought out criticism of capitalism. Tell me, if the right wing, yourself included, are all about the "battle of ideas", why is it that our best economists are never taught the primary criticism of the system in which we function? I thought this country was about debating issues and whoever has the best idea wins. Why is it our economists go through school without ever delving into Marxism?

Couldn't be indoctrination, no.

Let's look at Capitalism and some of the criticisms of it.

Boom-Bust cycles; the never ending result of capitalism's self consumption; overproduction is encouraged via these systems, the manufacturers need a market, so they abscond some of their profits to second hand middle men, who then sell wares for an inflated price to consumers. This means a worker is never actually paid their worth; they are paid just enough to ensure their productivity so the manufacturer and middle man make a profit; these cycles of feast and famine always adversely impact the workers first, who are laid off en masse.

This then leads to the famine cycle, where well paid workers who are now bereft of employment are now easy pickings in their desperation for carnivore capitalists, who will hire these desperate workers at far less pay, proliferating a downward cycle in wages and happiness.

Marx also said that capitalism represents the interests of the capitalist and the worker as one in the same but is dishonest; this -would- be true if employees had actual stake in a company, but given today's modern slave-wage earning class, this is hardly true. Capitalism represents the interests of those savvy enough to rig the game in their favor, the employees are simply an expense, and with so many billions of people on earth, a capitalists true desire is to engorge themselves with as much profit while paying as little as possible; this is true of the system and the proponents of the system.

Look at credit cards. Credit cards invent fake value; it's a way for the capitalist class to continue to profiteer off the backs of workers who have been systematically underpaid, undermined, and abused by the capitalist system.

The whole thing with Marx is this; Marx has been misrepresented, especially by the right wing; but also by those who would claim his mantle. Lenin said of Marx that the economic applications of Marxism were the most important, but I'd say the sociological views of Marx are what is important. A communist or Marxist economic structure has never actually been implemented in the way Marx envisioned.

One has to ignore completely the current economic situation in order to dismiss Marx as a clown or as a moron. We have systems now that will eradicate millions of laborers. We have efficient robots that will replace workers en masse. We have tech companies demolishing the need for customer service reps, etc.

This country is on the fast track to a purely electronic workforce in some of the largest sectors of the economy.

This benefits who? The capitalist. Not the worker. The worker is replaced by someone who needs no pay, no benefits, only the occasional repair; no breaks, no lunches, no vacation.

So what do we do about it? What is the capitalist answer to this?

There isn't one.
 
Boom-Bust cycles; the never ending result of capitalism's self consumption; overproduction is encouraged via these systems,

If you make more of something than you can sell then you lose money. Capitalists do not like losing money, hence there is no incentive for over production.

the manufacturers need a market, so they abscond some of their profits to second hand middle men, who then sell wares for an inflated price to consumers.

The so-called "middleman" facilitates trade between producers and consumers, he brings buyers and sellers together for their mutual benefit.

This means a worker is never actually paid their worth;

He is paid what he's worth, if his employer didn't pay him what he's worth then he would quit and work somewhere else. He is not, however, paid as much as he produces, which is what Marx noted. But if you're not going to make any money on an employee, why hire him in the first place? It's a business, not a charity.

Capitalism represents the interests of those savvy enough to rig the game in their favor,

Yes, they rig the game via government regulation, which people like you support. A rich capitalist can afford to lobby politicians in order to pass regulations which harm his smaller competition much more than they harm him - it's done every day, and people like you advocate even more regulation, much to the delight of big corporations.

A communist or Marxist economic structure has never actually been implemented in the way Marx envisioned.

Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge came pretty close. What's wrong, wasn't bloody enough for you?
 
If you make more of something than you can sell then you lose money. Capitalists do not like losing money, hence there is no incentive for over production.

Overproduction is encouraged to flood markets and drown smaller upstart producers. This in turn incentivizes product fallability. Look at iPhones.

The so-called "middleman" facilitates trade between producers and consumers, he brings buyers and sellers together for their mutual benefit.

And in so doing, devalues the labor of the worker by soaking up some of the profits for themselves.

He is paid what he's worth, if his employer didn't pay him what he's worth then he would quit and work somewhere else. He is not, however, paid as much as he produces, which is what Marx noted. But if you're not going to make any money on an employee, why hire him in the first place? It's a business, not a charity.

No, he is paid what the employer is willing to CUT from his own paycheck in order to retain the employee. If an employee is truly paid worth then no one would make any money. There will always be this power imbalance between employer and employee, which is what Marx noted. The employer always has greater power in a capitalist system; arguing the employee is free to go elsewhere is a non-argument and doesn't address other factors beyond the employees control, such as place of residence and employment market options.

Yes, they rig the game via government regulation, which people like you support. A rich capitalist can afford to lobby politicians in order to pass regulations which harm his smaller competition much more than they harm him - it's done every day, and people like you advocate even more regulation, much to the delight of big corporations.

So in your view, upstart companies should be allowed to pollute at will; should be allowed to profiteer at will; should be allowed to act unhinged from any responsiblity, all to compete with their bigger brethren?

Regulation ensures a fair environment for trade, as well as public, consumer, and environmental protections are in place. Why do you think these regulations were called for in the first place? Because capitalism is itself destructive and seeks to exploit at all costs. Without an exploitative, no floor economic system we wouldn't require protections. There'd be no need to tell companies they aren't allowed to poison the drinking water so they could save a few bucks by eliminating some filtering equipment.

Let's also dismiss the theory that any of these huge corporate capitalists are going to be unseated by upstart small businesses; it's not going to happen. Mergers and acquisitions have been enabled by admin after admin to the point now that "choice" is simply a facade, a fake meme thrown around when really only a handful of companies own basically everything; and it's not "regulation" that caused this, but the refusal of our courts and our government to use existing regulation (That hasnt been destroyed by republicans) to block these tyrannical corporate mergers.


Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge came pretty close. What's wrong, wasn't bloody enough for you?

This comment alone shows me you haven't read, nor understood a single thing Marx said, nor do you understand a single thing about "communism" or "socialism."
 
Overproduction is encouraged to flood markets and drown smaller upstart producers. This in turn incentivizes product fallability. Look at iPhones.

iphones have not "drown[ed] out smaller upstart producers" of phones. Not in the slightest.


Regulation ensures a fair environment for trade

Good Lord, do people really believe this? For every member of Congress, there are 22 registered lobbyists. Do you believe that when members of Congress and lobbyist meet, their goal is to "ensure a fair environment for trade"?

Why do you think these regulations were called for in the first place?

They exist because politicians and bureaucrats have political favors to sell to the highest bidder.

You have an incredibly naive view of how the state works.

Let's also dismiss the theory that any of these huge corporate capitalists are going to be unseated by upstart small businesses; it's not going to happen.

Right, the way Amazon vs Waldenbooks and Barnes and Noble didn't happen. Or the way Tesla vs Ford and other US automakers isn't happening. Or the way Apple vs Microsoft didn't happen. Or Wikipedia vs Encyclopedia Britannica didn't happen. Or Sam Adams vs. the big Breweries didn't happen. Or the way digital cameras vs Kodak didn't happen. Or how Subway vs McDonalds didn't happen. Or how Red Bull vs Coke and Pepsi didn't happen.
 
iphones have not "drown[ed] out smaller upstart producers" of phones. Not in the slightest.


Do you know who owns what secondary market cell phones?

Good Lord, do people really believe this? For every member of Congress, there are 22 registered lobbyists. Do you believe that when members of Congress and lobbyist meet, their goal is to "ensure a fair environment for trade"?

Yawwwwwn. Yes, because industry, not people, lobbied for clean air and water protections. Tell me, who is lobbying for the ability to pollute? Is it the people, or industry like Georgia Pacific? Do you seriously think GP wants competition?

:roll:

They exist because politicians and bureaucrats have political favors to sell to the highest bidder.

You have an incredibly naive view of how the state works.

Idiocy. Environmental and consumer protection regulations were put in place to STOP predatory companies and polluters. Your arrogance is getting in the way of your vision.

Right, the way Amazon vs Waldenbooks and Barnes and Noble didn't happen. Or the way Tesla vs Ford and other US automakers isn't happening. Or the way Apple vs Microsoft didn't happen. Or Wikipedia vs Encyclopedia Britannica didn't happen. Or Sam Adams vs. the big Breweries didn't happen. Or the way digital cameras vs Kodak didn't happen. Or how Subway vs McDonalds didn't happen. Or how Red Bull vs Coke and Pepsi didn't happen.

Oh, it happened. And then usually those companies get usurped and buy out smaller competitors in the cannibalistic arena of capitalist ventures; but you already knew that.

Digital Cameras vs Kodak? Do you even know what you're talking about? Wikipedia vs. the encyclopedia? LOLOL.
 
Both are within their rights to protect their interests. Neither exist in a vacuum and are dependent on each other.

Me too. To hell with Karl Marx. Let business owners unite against greedy workers with horrible work ethics as well. Let's get some good from union organizing.
 
You can rail against Marx all you want, but up to now you have failed to address the exploitative factor he addressed regarding between businesses and workers. The bottom line is corporations are run by people, and people require parameters to be defined; typically by the society in which they're in. It's fine for businesses to be focused on profit, and other agencies (government etc.) to focus on other issues, but the impact of business practices affect more than just themselves. As we've seen in the past, business does not do a good job at managing these externalities well on its own.

Workers have done a dismal job in uniting for the purpose of being better workers and making businesses work more efficiently and profitably for the good of the nation.
 
Workers have done a dismal job in uniting for the purpose of being better workers and making businesses work more efficiently and profitably for the good of the nation.

They didn't unite to become better workers; they did it to improve their pay and working conditions among other things. These issues were good for the nation because they changed the dynamic of people just being exploitable commodities. I sure hope you didn't enjoy any of the improved conditions the labor movement achieved; otherwise it's hypocritical to complain about the result of those efforts. While there are certainly issues with unions, it doesn't invalidate the idea of employees uniting for common cause.
 
Communist party platforms support more government regulation and control of businesses and the establishment of labor unions to force businesses to meet workers' demands. What kind of worker benefits from such oppression of business and free enterprise economies?

1. A lazy worker who likes the idea of employers being forced to pay higher salaries regardless of output.
2. A worker who has bad attitudes and wants the government to protect his job from being discriminated against because of his bad attitude.
3. Workers who want more benefits like free childcare, paid vacations, shorter hours, more paid sick leave, higher retirement incomes and so forth, in an economy where most business employers are struggling just to stay afloat.
3. Minorities who want to be given special status when competing for jobs and special protections when being disciplined for poor performance.
4. Workers who want their employment secure in spite of poor performance, laziness, bad attitudes, bad conduct, unreliable behaviors, incompetency and so forth.
And others.

5. Workers who don't work for a monopoly.
 
They didn't unite to become better workers; they did it to improve their pay and working conditions among other things. These issues were good for the nation because they changed the dynamic of people just being exploitable commodities. I sure hope you didn't enjoy any of the improved conditions the labor movement achieved; otherwise it's hypocritical to complain about the result of those efforts. While there are certainly issues with unions, it doesn't invalidate the idea of employees uniting for common cause.

Communists just think government controlled businesses are better for the whole nation. They are wrong, but that does not mean they have no intention of returning to Obamanomics once they get Trump out of the way.
 
Communists just think government controlled businesses are better for the whole nation. They are wrong, but that does not mean they have no intention of returning to Obamanomics once they get Trump out of the way.

No one is talking about communists, nor is workers fighting for their rights a road to communism. Regulating businesses via the government doesn't make them government controlled either; anymore than laws make people government controlled.
 
No one is talking about communists, nor is workers fighting for their rights a road to communism. Regulating businesses via the government doesn't make them government controlled either; anymore than laws make people government controlled.

All unions are communist and therefore anti-American by definition, comrade.

These communist unions exist for the sole purpose of destroying the nation. Which is why 85% of all union members today work for government, and only 15% of unions are in the private sector. We can't do anything about the unions in the private sector, but we can, and should, certainly abolish them in government. Government unions subvert the will of the people. Even your fascist leader FDR vehemently opposed them.
 
All unions are communist and therefore anti-American by definition, comrade.

These communist unions exist for the sole purpose of destroying the nation. Which is why 85% of all union members today work for government, and only 15% of unions are in the private sector. We can't do anything about the unions in the private sector, but we can, and should, certainly abolish them in government. Government unions subvert the will of the people. Even your fascist leader FDR vehemently opposed them.

Is that right? Do elaborate, comrade.
 
You can rail against Marx all you want, but up to now, you have failed to address the exploitative factor he addressed regarding between businesses and workers.

Comments made by Marx with regards to the exploitation of workers by capitalists were not exactly sound. His argument hinged on a peculiar definition of surplus which essentially begged the question. Per his understanding, the proper income of capital is an interest rate on investment, and that of labor is its wage. Once you run the numbers, a gap emerges between what each party is paid and what the business receives. We call it "profit" and Marx called it "surplus value." Seeing this, Marx says all of that belongs to the workers because capitalists have already been paid and it is labor which added this value to the production.

In his view, the fact that someone had an idea, risked their own time and resources on a project which may never pan out, took pain in organizing the production and brought people together so that the idea comes to life enters nowhere. I'd say this is a very nontrivial contribution without which nothing is possible. On moral grounds, a big part of Marx' rant is based on belittling what entrepreneurs do for our society. Moreover, contrary to what Marx believed, save perhaps for rare exceptions and for governmental interference, markets happen to be rather dynamic and businesses do not have anything like unassailable market shares, even when they are very large. Numerous giants have been toppled in the US in the last century. What this means is that, as long as the government is not actively trying to spare incumbents from competition, you little Joe actually have a chance to open a business of your own if you don't like working for someone else.

The bottom line is corporations are run by people, and people require parameters to be defined; typically by the society in which they're in.

It's precisely because we're talking about people that decentralizing decisions is such an effective way to cope with large scale problems.

It's fine for businesses to be focused on profit, and other agencies (government etc.) to focus on other issues, but the impact of business practices affect more than just themselves. As we've seen in the past, business does not do a good job at managing these externalities well on its own.

You can think of an externality as the consumption of goods for which one does not pay. For example, when you pollute a river, it's exactly as if you use the river as a production input, but you don't pay anyone for using it up. If someone owned it and could sell rights to poor chemicals into it, people who need clean water would want to buy some, just like people who need a place to poor chemicals. Obviously, that price would not settle at 0, assuming you could enforce that kind of thing. The concept of an externality, in other words, is at its core the fact that some costs or benefits fall on third parties in a way that implies it is not priced in the transaction or activity.

Now, if you have in mind the fact that a business might affect the life of its employees, you're not talking about an externality because workers are a party to those transactions and therefore non-wage benefits, working conditions, stress, etc. are factors they price into their supply of labor. The negotiation may not give them a good deal by their own light, but being unable to get other people to give you everything your ego desires is not an externality, just to be clear on what this concept means.
 
In his view, the fact that someone had an idea, risked their own time and resources on a project...

Just thought I'd point something out--your point here begs the question against Marx. Marx did not assume that those resources in question actually belong to the person who possesses them (in this case, the entrepreneur). In fact, as you seem to understand elsewhere, that was one of his major points--capitalism has given the appearance, by enforcing possession, that resources are owned by the possessors. But in fact, those possessors do not own them, any more than a thief who gets away with his crimes can be said to own what he has stolen.

Without some argument about actual ownership of those resources on your part--and argument that will succeed against Marx on this specific question--you cannot just help yourself to any assumption that the resources being "risked" are owned by the entrepreneurs risking them.

All of this said I am not a Marxist, nor do I support the adoption of full-on communism. But I don't like to see bad reasoning.
 
All unions are communist and therefore anti-American by definition, comrade.

Most people care about their bills and their personal problems. They don't care enough about politics to have read Marx, Engels or any other strand of socialist literature. They do not have the luxury of perusing through philosophy all day long.

So, what do union members want? Exactly what they demand: good working conditions, good paychecks, some employment security, and nonwage benefits like pensions, reasonable schedules, health insurance, etc. Those are things that solve problems for them, their family and perhaps also their community if they're part of the people who still care to donate time and effort.

Nice strawman, by the way.
 
Just thought I'd point something out -- your point here begs the question against Marx.

Begging the question requires that my answer be a corollary of my definitions, which is not the case. I ascribe the rightful property of capital to entrepreneurs, but my argument does not rest on this assumption and does not follow directly from it. I said that entrepreneurs contribute far more to production than just financing the activity (materials, machines, and buildings). I said they bring ideas, management, and organization to the table and that they risk losing all the resources they invest -- and that it is because all of these things add value that they have a rightful claim to profits. Whether they can legitimately depart with the capital afterward is a slightly different question.

(1) Even if they didn't rightfully own the capital, they still stand to lose them so it is still a risk;
(2) Even if they don't rightfully own the capital, they still take care of a long list of things that need to be done just right for a business to become and stay profitable and that affords them a rightful claim to profits;
(3) Marx still doesn't talk about that part, even if it is a very big part of why people have jobs in the first place; and
(4) That part is not an assumption, but a fact: people actually need to come up with ideas, to organize every aspect of a project and to find the necessary resources before anything happens.

Granted, if the capital was acquired illegitimately, something might be said for the board to be slanted toward some people more than others. This might have been truer in 1860 than in 2019, however.

Without some argument about the actual ownership of those resources on your part--and argument that will succeed against Marx on this specific question--you cannot just help yourself to any assumption that the resources being "risked" are owned by the entrepreneurs risking them.

Let's assume entrepreneurs are thieves, as you did above, and that property rights really are a sort of legalized money laundering scam. You understand that when I bet my "spoils," even if they come from a robbery, I stand to possibly lose them? The same system which you depict as crooked and which would legitimize a scam for entrepreneurs imply they have no protection against bankruptcy. Even thieves can bear risks with the spoils of their theft.

I also have a very simple argument against your claim with regards to property: voluntary transactions ascribe rightful property. In other words, theft requires coercion. If we could undo the consequences of all the violations of this principle in the past and present in a way that would produce the world that would have had risen had these violations not happened, it might be ideal to do just that. However, we neither have the knowledge nor the capacity to do anything even remotely close to it. Your best shot is to limit those problems now and to institute programs that seek to give people a fair shake of rising in the social ladder going forward.

It's very hard to object to voluntary transactions, except in cases where market failures are large can be reliably addressed without causing problems bigger than those we seek to solve. It's also the only way you won't create casts in society with some people placed above others. Voluntary means I have to convince you, by your own lights, to get what I want from you.

But I don't like to see bad reasoning.

My reasoning wasn't bad. It might have been unclear and might have been poorly expressed.
 
Begging the question requires that my answer be a corollary of my definitions, which is not the case.

Makes no sense to me. Begging the question (AKA circular reasoning) just happens when a person assumes as a premise, stated or not, and whether or not as a definition or corollary or whatever, what she sets out to prove. Any time you simply help yourself to a premise (stated or not) that an interlocutor outright denies (especially if, as Marx does, that interlocutor has an argument against that premise), you're begging the question against your interlocutor. The question begging occurs by virtue of the fact that you must deny Marx' conclusion here (that is, you must conclude his point is false), but to do so, you merely assume it is false, thus assuming as a premise what you must conclude.

That's obviously bad reasoning. The best, and really only, way to argue is to start with premises with which your interlocutor agrees, and work forward by inference or induction from there.

I ascribe the rightful property of capital to entrepreneurs, but my argument does not rest on this assumption and does not follow directly from it.

I never said your argument follows directly from the rightful property of capital to entrepreneurs (as you put it). However, if those entrepreneurs are risking other people's resources rather than their own, any ethical claim to profits from the use of that capital are very nearly nullified--in fact, entrepreneurs bring nothing more to the table than do other workers.

I said that entrepreneurs contribute far more to production than just financing the activity (materials, machines, and buildings). I said they bring ideas, management, and organization to the table

Sure. So do all the other workers--though usually on a more fine-grained level, their contributions along those lines are still entirely necessary to the successful running of a business. If those things secure a claim to ownership of an enterprise for an entrepreneur, they do for workers as well, by parity of reasoning.

(1) Even if they didn't rightfully own the capital, they still stand to lose them so it is still a risk

The concept of "risk" here seems to involve a necessary component of ownership. If I could somehow legally, and just like that, get control of your money, I would hardly be taking any risk by investing it. You would stand to lose a lot; I would stand to lose nothing, other than perhaps the time I've put into my nefarious scheme.

(2) Even if they don't rightfully own the capital, they still take care of a long list of things that need to be done just right for a business to become and stay profitable and that affords them a rightful claim to profits;

Again, so do the workers. And if the principle works to guarantee profits for the entrepreneur, then it works just as well for the worker.

(3) Marx still doesn't talk about that part, even if it is a very big part of why people have jobs in the first place; and

Actually, Marx has rather a lot to say about this, but I'm too lazy just now to go look up where, exactly. However, in general, just as the person stocking the merchandise for $9 an hour couldn't do what she does without the work of the CEO, the same holds in reverse. CEOs would be screwed without workers.

(4) That part is not an assumption, but a fact: people actually need to come up with ideas, to organize every aspect of a project and to find the necessary resources before anything happens.

I might quibble with a bit of what you say (every aspect sounds like overkill), but I also don't see that any of this is relevant. I'll be happy to start scheming and organizing and planning what to do with your money and property if mere possession of the resources is sufficient to guarantee my ownership thereof.

Granted, if the capital was acquired illegitimately, something might be said for the board to be slanted toward some people more than others. This might have been truer in 1860 than in 2019, however.

Not in my experience, which is both relevant and considerable.
 
Let's assume entrepreneurs are thieves, as you did above

I made no such assumption. Marx makes it. I'm pointing out you cannot assume simpliciter the opposite in your effort to dismiss Marx when he has an argument that entrepreneurs (or capitalists) really are thieves, in essence.

and that property rights really are a sort of legalized money laundering scam. You understand that when I bet my "spoils," even if they come from a robbery, I stand to possibly lose them?

I'm not so sure it's possible to lose what you should never have had, except in a trivial sense of misplacing it.

The same system which you depict as crooked

Well, Marx thinks so. I'm not discussing my own views.

Even thieves can bear risks with the spoils of their theft.

Not in the appropriate way here. As a matter of mechanical process, you may be right. But when we ask the question (as people often do) what entitles the entrepreneur to her profits, the answer has to involve some ethical force. She gets the profits because what she risked was hers, not merely by possession, but by right. This latter concept is not one that can be legislated into or out of existence (any more than murder would stop being wrong even if we repealed all laws against it).

The mechanical process in question is, in Marx' view, merely one of possession. So, for example, if I came to your house while you were away and carted everything you have off, I've completed a mechanical process whereby I take possession of your stuff. However, hardly anyone would believe that my doing so entitles me to your stuff.
I also have a very simple argument against your claim with regards to property: voluntary transactions ascribe rightful property.

I'll grant this point arguendo.

In other words, theft requires coercion.

Just as often, deception or concealment, but again, I'll grant the point for the sake of argument.

If we could undo the consequences of all the violations of this principle in the past and present in a way that would produce the world that would have had risen had these violations not happened, it might be ideal to do just that. However, we neither have the knowledge nor the capacity to do anything even remotely close to it.

I'm not sure I see the relevance, but go on.

Your best shot is to limit those problems now and to institute programs that seek to give people a fair shake of rising in the social ladder going forward.

Seems clearly false to me.

It's very hard to object to voluntary transactions, except in cases where market failures are large can be reliably addressed without causing problems bigger than those we seek to solve. It's also the only way you won't create casts in society with some people placed above others. Voluntary means I have to convince you, by your own lights, to get what I want from you.

Ok, sure. By that definition, almost no transactions, especially where work and wages are concerned, are voluntary. I think that's Marx' point here.
 
That actually describes the attitude of many very conservative union workers I know that usually vote republican. Unfortunately communism / socialism isn't going to give workers this as much has liberals might think. If that is what they want their better off actually being republican and working hard to get in a good union.
 
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