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Thread: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

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    Re: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElChupacabra View Post
    You can rail against Marx all you want, but up to now you have failed to address the exploitative factor he addressed regarding between businesses and workers. The bottom line is corporations are run by people, and people require parameters to be defined; typically by the society in which they're in. It's fine for businesses to be focused on profit, and other agencies (government etc.) to focus on other issues, but the impact of business practices affect more than just themselves. As we've seen in the past, business does not do a good job at managing these externalities well on its own.
    Workers have done a dismal job in uniting for the purpose of being better workers and making businesses work more efficiently and profitably for the good of the nation.

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    Re: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    Workers have done a dismal job in uniting for the purpose of being better workers and making businesses work more efficiently and profitably for the good of the nation.
    They didn't unite to become better workers; they did it to improve their pay and working conditions among other things. These issues were good for the nation because they changed the dynamic of people just being exploitable commodities. I sure hope you didn't enjoy any of the improved conditions the labor movement achieved; otherwise it's hypocritical to complain about the result of those efforts. While there are certainly issues with unions, it doesn't invalidate the idea of employees uniting for common cause.

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    Re: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    Communist party platforms support more government regulation and control of businesses and the establishment of labor unions to force businesses to meet workers' demands. What kind of worker benefits from such oppression of business and free enterprise economies?

    1. A lazy worker who likes the idea of employers being forced to pay higher salaries regardless of output.
    2. A worker who has bad attitudes and wants the government to protect his job from being discriminated against because of his bad attitude.
    3. Workers who want more benefits like free childcare, paid vacations, shorter hours, more paid sick leave, higher retirement incomes and so forth, in an economy where most business employers are struggling just to stay afloat.
    3. Minorities who want to be given special status when competing for jobs and special protections when being disciplined for poor performance.
    4. Workers who want their employment secure in spite of poor performance, laziness, bad attitudes, bad conduct, unreliable behaviors, incompetency and so forth.
    And others.
    5. Workers who don't work for a monopoly.

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    Re: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElChupacabra View Post
    They didn't unite to become better workers; they did it to improve their pay and working conditions among other things. These issues were good for the nation because they changed the dynamic of people just being exploitable commodities. I sure hope you didn't enjoy any of the improved conditions the labor movement achieved; otherwise it's hypocritical to complain about the result of those efforts. While there are certainly issues with unions, it doesn't invalidate the idea of employees uniting for common cause.
    Communists just think government controlled businesses are better for the whole nation. They are wrong, but that does not mean they have no intention of returning to Obamanomics once they get Trump out of the way.

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    Re: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL9000 View Post
    5. Workers who don't work for a monopoly.
    The government is a monopoly.

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    Re: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    Communists just think government controlled businesses are better for the whole nation. They are wrong, but that does not mean they have no intention of returning to Obamanomics once they get Trump out of the way.
    No one is talking about communists, nor is workers fighting for their rights a road to communism. Regulating businesses via the government doesn't make them government controlled either; anymore than laws make people government controlled.

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    Re: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElChupacabra View Post
    No one is talking about communists, nor is workers fighting for their rights a road to communism. Regulating businesses via the government doesn't make them government controlled either; anymore than laws make people government controlled.
    All unions are communist and therefore anti-American by definition, comrade.

    These communist unions exist for the sole purpose of destroying the nation. Which is why 85% of all union members today work for government, and only 15% of unions are in the private sector. We can't do anything about the unions in the private sector, but we can, and should, certainly abolish them in government. Government unions subvert the will of the people. Even your fascist leader FDR vehemently opposed them.

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    Re: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
    All unions are communist and therefore anti-American by definition, comrade.

    These communist unions exist for the sole purpose of destroying the nation. Which is why 85% of all union members today work for government, and only 15% of unions are in the private sector. We can't do anything about the unions in the private sector, but we can, and should, certainly abolish them in government. Government unions subvert the will of the people. Even your fascist leader FDR vehemently opposed them.
    Is that right? Do elaborate, comrade.

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    Re: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElChupacabra View Post
    You can rail against Marx all you want, but up to now, you have failed to address the exploitative factor he addressed regarding between businesses and workers.
    Comments made by Marx with regards to the exploitation of workers by capitalists were not exactly sound. His argument hinged on a peculiar definition of surplus which essentially begged the question. Per his understanding, the proper income of capital is an interest rate on investment, and that of labor is its wage. Once you run the numbers, a gap emerges between what each party is paid and what the business receives. We call it "profit" and Marx called it "surplus value." Seeing this, Marx says all of that belongs to the workers because capitalists have already been paid and it is labor which added this value to the production.

    In his view, the fact that someone had an idea, risked their own time and resources on a project which may never pan out, took pain in organizing the production and brought people together so that the idea comes to life enters nowhere. I'd say this is a very nontrivial contribution without which nothing is possible. On moral grounds, a big part of Marx' rant is based on belittling what entrepreneurs do for our society. Moreover, contrary to what Marx believed, save perhaps for rare exceptions and for governmental interference, markets happen to be rather dynamic and businesses do not have anything like unassailable market shares, even when they are very large. Numerous giants have been toppled in the US in the last century. What this means is that, as long as the government is not actively trying to spare incumbents from competition, you little Joe actually have a chance to open a business of your own if you don't like working for someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElChupacabra View Post
    The bottom line is corporations are run by people, and people require parameters to be defined; typically by the society in which they're in.
    It's precisely because we're talking about people that decentralizing decisions is such an effective way to cope with large scale problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElChupacabra View Post
    It's fine for businesses to be focused on profit, and other agencies (government etc.) to focus on other issues, but the impact of business practices affect more than just themselves. As we've seen in the past, business does not do a good job at managing these externalities well on its own.
    You can think of an externality as the consumption of goods for which one does not pay. For example, when you pollute a river, it's exactly as if you use the river as a production input, but you don't pay anyone for using it up. If someone owned it and could sell rights to poor chemicals into it, people who need clean water would want to buy some, just like people who need a place to poor chemicals. Obviously, that price would not settle at 0, assuming you could enforce that kind of thing. The concept of an externality, in other words, is at its core the fact that some costs or benefits fall on third parties in a way that implies it is not priced in the transaction or activity.

    Now, if you have in mind the fact that a business might affect the life of its employees, you're not talking about an externality because workers are a party to those transactions and therefore non-wage benefits, working conditions, stress, etc. are factors they price into their supply of labor. The negotiation may not give them a good deal by their own light, but being unable to get other people to give you everything your ego desires is not an externality, just to be clear on what this concept means.

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    Re: What kind of worker benefits from increased government involvement in private businesses?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    In his view, the fact that someone had an idea, risked their own time and resources on a project...
    Just thought I'd point something out--your point here begs the question against Marx. Marx did not assume that those resources in question actually belong to the person who possesses them (in this case, the entrepreneur). In fact, as you seem to understand elsewhere, that was one of his major points--capitalism has given the appearance, by enforcing possession, that resources are owned by the possessors. But in fact, those possessors do not own them, any more than a thief who gets away with his crimes can be said to own what he has stolen.

    Without some argument about actual ownership of those resources on your part--and argument that will succeed against Marx on this specific question--you cannot just help yourself to any assumption that the resources being "risked" are owned by the entrepreneurs risking them.

    All of this said I am not a Marxist, nor do I support the adoption of full-on communism. But I don't like to see bad reasoning.

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