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Thread: New UW Study: Raising the Minimum Wage Doesn’t Raise the Price of Groceries

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    Re: New UW Study: Raising the Minimum Wage Doesn’t Raise the Price of Groceries

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Bob's small business keeps a book keeper and a receptionist on staff. Bill's small business buys an accounting package and an automated attendant, thus doesn't need those positions anymore. Bill's small business then undercuts Bob's small business in prices. Bob's small business must do what Bill's small business did in order to remain competitive.
    Jill is willing to pay a bit more to patronize Bob's small business because she knows he hires locally and keeps Jeff and Mary, an accountant and receptionist respectively, on staff.

    Besides this, Bob is willing to keep Mary on staff because she adds enough to the experience of shopping at his store to justify her modest wage--something a kiosk could never accomplish.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Every minimum wage increase is met by claims of doom and gloom by cheap labor conservatives, yet their predictions have never came to fruition.
    There's a first time for everything, and the past few years have been a very busy time for unprecedented firsts.

    We're also not talking about the nickel and dime minimum wage increases of the 20th Century. A $15 federal minimum wage is anywhere from a 25-90% hike in a very short period of time. The move would be unprecedented even if we weren't on the cusp of an era of disposable labour.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Now sure, you could set some wage so high that no one would hire anyone, but no one is suggesting a wage anywhere near that high.
    How do you know? How are you so confident a massive wage hike at this cosmic moment in time won't cross the threshold to obsoleting tens of millions of jobs? Does nothing else about the time we're living in scream "unprecedented and unpredictable" to you?

    If it happens, do you think a nation can recover easily? Lower the minimum wage again to try and put the genie back in the bottle once businesses have invested billions into automation-related capital, and the COL has gone up to what it currently is in $15 min wage cities?

    There's a good case to be made for raising federal minimum wage in the US. I'm not saying otherwise. But if you're advocating e.g. the Bernie Sanders $15 minimum wage pipe dream, or even $12 minimum wage, I don't care who you are, you can't tell me with any confidence that the hike won't irreversibly destroy the lives of tens of millions of people. If you break the economy in this way, you can't fix it in an entire generation. And where will you be then? Running around, demanding government do this and do that, dictate hiring here, cap salaries there, impose quotas over there, in futile attempts to legislate your way back into prosperity.

    The far wiser thing to do is to start with a modest hike: a $9.75 + inflation target over the next five years (which will wind up around $11.00), then a +$1.00 + inflation (roughly +$1.15) target every five years after that. Nominally. (i.e. assuming everything doesn't start falling apart midway through the process)

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    Re: New UW Study: Raising the Minimum Wage Doesn’t Raise the Price of Groceries

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    I've always thought that full time minimum wage should be three times what a one bedroom apartment costs. As this number tends to reflect cost of living in the area.

    This would pit employers against landlords, which IMO would be a good thing. Maybe get businesses to turn against real estate "speculation".

    I said before that places where housing was cheap just hadn't been gotten to by the "speculators". (In quotes because much real estate speculation is actually just buying enough of the available real estate to create an apparent "shortage", driving prices up. I saw this practice triple the price of a home in the corridor around Joshua Tree CA when they thought it was going to be the next telluride or Santa Fe.)

    Texas is now seeing this phenomenon.
    Poor areas either have potential or they don't. High prices aren't always a result of speculation, they're often largely just ordinary supply and demand.

    The market itself has a tendency to command certain wage rates. If a minimum wage can't afford housing anywhere nearby, people aren't going to be willing to do that job, at least not for long. We see this in California's most inflated real estate markets. Speaking of those, some people who tend to be more extremist on the liberal side like to blame tech companies and other large employers for creating the housing problem, as well as blame low minimum wages. But the single biggest contributor to housing problems is local zoning laws held hostage by the area's homeowners. Corporations have no reason to spend resources lobbying local planning and zoning commissions for luxury-only real estate.

    Look at Atherton, CA. Median home price $8.1 million, and they've literally made it illegal for any house to cover more than 18% of a parcel's land. What's the (entirely intended) effect of that? Single family housing, mansions-only. Or look at the Bay Area. There isn't a single neighborhood where two adults both working full time at $15 an hour can afford a housing unit. A federal minimum wage hike does nothing for the people there, or for the homelessness problem. Even if SF hiked its own minimum wage to $30, and if we were to assume there were no disemployment effects from that, it still likely wouldn't put a dent in the homelessness problems, because all it would mean is more dollars chasing the same number of homes. The only solution is to build significant volumes of additional, affordable housing. The local homeowners oppose affordable housing as if they were fighting an invasion of zombies.

    The single biggest thing that can be done to address homelessness problems is for local zoning laws to be overridden against the will of the people. How does a democracy accomplish that? The people who already own property in these areas would be livid and recall their city councils. What state or federal agency would be remotely equipped to take over local zoning decisions, even if they could? Even the most extremely liberal cities in the country, who proclaim to care deeply about the plight of the poor and homeless, nonetheless have some of the most aggressive anti-affordable-housing tactics you'll find anywhere among the homeowners. That's enormous hypocrisy, but it's the norm. Minimum wages don't fix it.

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    Re: New UW Study: Raising the Minimum Wage Doesn’t Raise the Price of Groceries

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    That has happened everywhere. I have been an IT professional for over 20 years, how much someone was paid has never factored into whether we automated a job or or not. If you can automate a job, it doesnt matter what they are paid, they could be paid slave wages and its still more efficient to automate the job.
    Its like the "unions forced businesses overseas" canard. No American could pay their landlord at $5/day.

    So it really was just cheap labor.

    The Great Divergence in the mid seventies where wages stopped following GDP growth occurred as our status heads came into direct competition with foreign status heads with vast desperate populations.

    It's really hard to become the richest, most powerful person when other competitors enjoyed those cheap labor pools. So something had to be done to "level the playing field".
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: New UW Study: Raising the Minimum Wage Doesn’t Raise the Price of Groceries

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Its like the "unions forced businesses overseas" canard. No American could pay their landlord at $5/day.

    So it really was just cheap labor.

    The Great Divergence in the mid seventies where wages stopped following GDP growth occurred as our status heads came into direct competition with foreign status heads with vast desperate populations.

    It's really hard to become the richest, most powerful person when other competitors enjoyed those cheap labor pools. So something had to be done to "level the playing field".
    Everyone wants to blame unions and regulations for outsourcing, but its actually made possible by container ships. Prior to container ships coming on the scene in the early 70s, it was much more expensive and slower to ship goods around the world, thus it was much harder to outsource production.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: New UW Study: Raising the Minimum Wage Doesn’t Raise the Price of Groceries

    Goldstein was the recipient of a 2009 Fuse "Sizzle" Award. He was given the Spotlight on the Shadows Sizzle Award "for journalism that matters." According to the awarding organization, Goldstein's a"progressive muckraking and political analysis... keep legislators honest and provide the information and analysis we all need to recognize great leadership and hold legislators accountable." [9]
    David Goldstein (blogger) - Wikipedia

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    WHO WE ARE
    Civic Ventures is a small group of political troublemakers devoted to ideas, policies, and actions that catalyze significant social change. We are serial innovators in the civic space who favor the kind of big, disruptive ideas that upturn conventional thinking. Though we promote many progressive concepts,


    So basically some hard edgy Progressive say Raising Min wage is a good thing. Someone stop the presses, progressives think more government is the answer, ****ing hell they have a "study too".


    A long line of studies about the minimum wage has revealed that it can drive down employment at the low end of the wage scale, but those losses are made up for by increases in higher-paying jobs. The University of Washington findings, however, suggest that there’s some merit to the usual complaint that gets lodged against minimum-wage hikes -- that they’re not only expensive for employers, but threaten to cut the first rung on the career ladder out from under teenagers or others just getting their start in the labor market. “The evidence that we’re picking up is consistent,” says Jacob Vigdor, an economist at the University of Washington. “We’re pricing out low-skill workers.”
    In Seattle, Minimum Wage Hike Comes at a Cost to Some Workers
    Socialism: "Why work hard when you can have Government give it to you for free!" -Bernie 2020

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    Re: New UW Study: Raising the Minimum Wage Doesn’t Raise the Price of Groceries

    What is a living wage?
    $15.00 an hour in Seattle a living wage?

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    Re: New UW Study: Raising the Minimum Wage Doesn’t Raise the Price of Groceries

    Much ado about nothing. Less than 1% of the working force draw minimum wage and most of them are teenagers. The "Living Wage" argument is just hype. Minimum wage jobs are for kids who are trying to pick up a few buck while they are in school learning to do something that is a real job.

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