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Progressivism/Socialism/Communism; a failed Ideology

Drawdown said:
Progressivism is simply a desire to improve the human condition through social reform. There is no manifest end goal other than make things better than they are.
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LOL, seriously? That's the mantra of almost every form of collectivist ideology ever dreamed of. See the problem is WHO decides what "makes things better" or "what makes things worse"? Progressivism relies on the ideas of "science" and "experts" and the general population is just supposed to accept whatever the ruling class and their gaggle of experts decide.
 
lwf said:
If that's the case, then modern day conservatives are also "progressive," right? Don't conservatives want to use government coercion to punish things like abortion and gay marriage?
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Nope.
 
Bullseye said:
LOL, seriously? That's the mantra of almost every form of collectivist ideology ever dreamed of. See the problem is WHO decides what "makes things better" or "what makes things worse"? Progressivism relies on the ideas of "science" and "experts" and the general population is just supposed to accept whatever the ruling class and their gaggle of experts decide.
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Beware of leftist Democrats bearing gifts...
 
upsideguy said:
Socialism and communism are not the same thing. Please learn the distinction and perhaps you can have a meaningful conversation.

To begin with, there are elements of socialism in all economies, including the American economy. Socialism isn't a failure when applied in the right dose. Most of the large European social-democracies have done quite well. If the social happiness index is an indication (and it should be), then a strong argument can be made that they have done a better job than their American counterparts, which might suggest a little more socialism in our economic diet could be a good thing.

Inequality index: where are the world's most unequal countries? | Inequality | The Guardian

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-10-26/..._1_norway-prosperity-new-zealand?_s=PM:LIVING
Legatum Prosperity Index 2018

There are a great deal of failures in the American system. The tremendous wealth disparity that rivals Haiti and is worse than Iran, being one of the starkest examples. A better mix of socialism would mitigate wealth inequality.

World Bank Names South Africa As The Country With The Greatest Wealth Inequality : Goats and Soda : NPR
Wealth Inequality - Inequality.org

Why is wealth inequality a problem? Well, it makes our economy remarkably less stable.

http://fortune.com/2017/08/01/wealth-gap-america/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lauren...um-income-inequality-capitalism/#47da486d5dd3
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2013/09/the-problem-with-wealth-inequality/
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/06/why-income-inequality-is-bad-for-growth/
http://www.iop.harvard.edu/political-issue-wealth-gap
http://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/237

In the interim, please stop with the socialism/communism. It shows remarkable ignorance. Do you wish to discuss communism OR socialism?

https://www.thoughtco.com/difference-between-communism-and-socialism-195448
http://www.businessdictionary.com/article/1030/communism-vs-socialism-d1412/
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According to Merriam-Webster and Karl Marx:
Definition of socialism
"A stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

According to Nikita Khrushchev, Cold War Premiere of the USSR:
“We can’t expect the American people to jump from capitalism to communism but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of socialism until one day they will awaken to find they have communism.”
 
ChezC3 said:
Yes on the first part, not necessarily so on the second.
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I beg to differ on the second part. There isn't a conservative alive, including you, that doesn't desire to use government coercion to keep their neighbors under control. This isn't a progressive trait, it's a human trait.
 
Empirica said:
According to Merriam-Webster and Karl Marx:
Definition of socialism
"A stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done"
Socialism | Definition of Socialism by Merriam-Webster

According to Nikita Khrushchev, Cold War Premiere of the USSR:
“We can’t expect the American people to jump from capitalism to communism but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of socialism until one day they will awaken to find they have communism.”
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They are not interchangeable, as even your definition states and as my previous post well delineates. They are not interchangeable as you suggest in the OP

Suggesting that socialism is a gateway drug, as Krushchev's quote may imply, does not make it a bad thing. Capitalism is an equivalent gateway to fascism, when left unchecked. If your issue is with communism, please so state, but stop using them interdependently, as they are not the same thing.

But, as I pointed a little socialism in an economic system proves to create an even stronger socio-economic system then is currently enjoyed in the US. Socialism is not a bad thing, and works well in the right quantities.
 
Empirica said:
What better Forum than Government Regulation is there for the ideo-political discussion of Communism/Socialism; the most dedicated and zealous purveyor of "government regulation" ever inflicted on humanity.

The rise of the Industrial Revolution was soon followed by the rise of the Communist Revolution in accordance with the 'ideo-political manifesto' created by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

Every generation since has had its diehard followers of the Marx/Engels, Communist Manifesto which has been sanitized over many decades of failure in multiple countries around the world.

These Socialist/Communist failures have resulted in the oppression, suffering and mass extermination of hundreds of millions of people where the survivors are still struggling to recover and rebuild.

And still these diehard supporters of the Progressive/Socialist/Communist ideology remain loyal to the Utopian Dream because "this time" it will be different.....Are you one of these "diehard supporters"?

If so, please explain to us skeptics.....Why?
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You built that strawman, you destroy it. Why ask for help?
 
lwf said:
I beg to differ on the second part. There isn't a conservative alive, including you, that doesn't desire to use government coercion to keep their neighbors under control. This isn't a progressive trait, it's a human trait.
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Well actually, no. I have no desire to control my neighbors. I am neither slave nor master. I accept neither slave nor master. I suppose I’ve overcome being all-too human.

What I very much desire is for my neighbors to control themselves.
 
aociswundumho said:
Yea, progressives are always full of good intentions. Too bad they rarely get any positive results.
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Nonsense

Prior to the New Deal most Americans lived hand to mouth and died with little savings. This changed in a remarkably short period of time, by FDR and the New Deal. Inequality declined drastically from the late 1930s to the mid 1940s, with the rich losing ground while working Americans saw unprecedented gains.What caused this? Progressive policies that supported strong unions, a high minimum wage, and a progressive tax system that helped limit inequality.

Have some respect for progressives. They gave you the five day work week.

Moreover, the idea that progressivism is the same as communism is silly. Denmark is a progressive country. It’s not a communist country. The last time that I checked, they have elections and are a democracy.
 
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ChezC3 said:
Well actually, no. I have no desire to control my neighbors. I am neither slave nor master. I accept neither slave nor master. I suppose I’ve overcome being all-too human.

What I very much desire is for my neighbors to control themselves.
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And what if they don't?
 
Drawdown said:
Progressivism is simply a desire to improve the human condition through social reform. There is no manifest end goal other than make things better than they are.
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Well, that is also the curse of progressivism. Progressivism is a one-size-fits-all ideology that assumes there is an objective goal to progress to that the Government can bend social will towards, rather than millions of individuals with their own goals when given their own choice.

This is why progressivism generally fails. There is no common direction for progress in a free society, so "progressive" policy is just varying degrees of authoritarian dictates.
 
Empirica said:
Waitaminute...You actually believe that far-left political advocates, desperate to gain the trust and support of voters, would include the bloody history of exterminating 200 million people in their "doctrine"?

Surely you cant be that naive...
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I would not be telling them that lie.

I would point out many of the faults in your own understanding of the words communism/socialism and how it is based on nothing more than association with the words rather than any understanding of the concepts.
 
lwf said:
And what if they don't?
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Here in Chicago it has been my experience that people tend to sort out most behavioral issues on their own.

Good fences make for good neighbors. Clear communication about what is and isn't acceptable. A little tolerance, understanding, and patience. Everyone gets along.
 
Empirica said:
What better Forum than Government Regulation is there for the ideo-political discussion of Communism/Socialism; the most dedicated and zealous purveyor of "government regulation" ever inflicted on humanity.

The rise of the Industrial Revolution was soon followed by the rise of the Communist Revolution in accordance with the 'ideo-political manifesto' created by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

Every generation since has had its diehard followers of the Marx/Engels, Communist Manifesto which has been sanitized over many decades of failure in multiple countries around the world.

These Socialist/Communist failures have resulted in the oppression, suffering and mass extermination of hundreds of millions of people where the survivors are still struggling to recover and rebuild.

And still these diehard supporters of the Progressive/Socialist/Communist ideology remain loyal to the Utopian Dream because "this time" it will be different.....Are you one of these "diehard supporters"?

If so, please explain to us skeptics.....Why?
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Communism actually is credited for industrializing many Third World countries, and it transformed China from a poor feudal society into one of the most advanced countries of the world.
 
ChezC3 said:
Here in Chicago it has been my experience that people tend to sort out most behavioral issues on their own.

Good fences make for good neighbors. Clear communication about what is and isn't acceptable. A little tolerance, understanding, and patience. Everyone gets along.
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Laws are how humans sort out their behavioral issues. Laws enforced by a governing body using coercion. That's how society works.
 
jmotivator said:
Well, that is also the curse of progressivism. Progressivism is a one-size-fits-all ideology that assumes there is an objective goal to progress to that the Government can bend social will towards, rather than millions of individuals with their own goals when given their own choice.

This is why progressivism generally fails. There is no common direction for progress in a free society, so "progressive" policy is just varying degrees of authoritarian dictates.
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Word. Why have clean drinking water when you could be getting it from a hole in the ground out beside the barn
 
Empirica said:
Which part???

That no one around here will believe there's a Socialist/Communist element vying for power in the US and they're using the new Progressive Democrat Party as their political vehicle?

Or; that despite its history of tyranny, oppression, suffering, mass murder and extreme failure rate; Socialism/Communism always manages to attract supporters from every generation?
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Capitalistic societies with socialist elements dominate the free world including the U.S. Medicare and Social Security are among the most popular programs in Govt. Are you saying that those programs will lead to mass killings? It is authoritarian Govt.s that are responsible for most all of those killings. Why don't you direct your rage at them? Absolute power corrupts absolutely is a phrase you need to add to you vocabulary.
 
Empirica said:
What better Forum than Government Regulation is there for the ideo-political discussion of Communism/Socialism; the most dedicated and zealous purveyor of "government regulation" ever inflicted on humanity.

The rise of the Industrial Revolution was soon followed by the rise of the Communist Revolution in accordance with the 'ideo-political manifesto' created by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

Every generation since has had its diehard followers of the Marx/Engels, Communist Manifesto which has been sanitized over many decades of failure in multiple countries around the world.

These Socialist/Communist failures have resulted in the oppression, suffering and mass extermination of hundreds of millions of people where the survivors are still struggling to recover and rebuild.

And still these diehard supporters of the Progressive/Socialist/Communist ideology remain loyal to the Utopian Dream because "this time" it will be different.....Are you one of these "diehard supporters"?

If so, please explain to us skeptics.....Why?
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Marx's ideas were perverted pretty much immediately. The USSR was never an actual Communism, any more than the U.S is an actual Democracy. Both are just oligarchies on different points in a fairly broad spectrum.

At least the USSR collapsed, whereas the US largely still buys into it's own mythology.
 
Drawdown said:
Word. Why have clean drinking water when you could be getting it from a hole in the ground out beside the barn
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Hey I like clean drinking water, does that mean I am progressive? :roll:
 
Empirica said:
I am indeed an avid reader of history and politics and I also managed to recognize the propaganda and resist the progressive indoctrination prevalent in most universities.
and
The "pundits" you alluded to were actually my parents, both of which were born and raised in pre-Iron Curtain, USSR...My father was from Russia and my mother Romania.

I can't imagine any better authorities (or "pundits" if you prefer) on the subject of this thread...

The history of the world is filled with atrocities committed by every people, race, religion, culture and nation on earth which have all been guilty of every evil you can imagine:

All have taken land from others and had land taken by others.

All have murdered others, and been murdered by others.

All have owned slaves, and have been owned as slaves.

Historically; no nation or group of people on earth has a monopoly on "atrocity".

But the Progressives seek to destroy the United States and Capitalism and replace it with their Socialist Utopia.

So they tell you the American Dream was only created for the evil greedy racist sexist white man that built it.

And then they tell you about all the wonderful free stuff they're going to provide you.

"Democracies" fail when people fall prey to the lies and propaganda of progressive charlatans promising a beautiful Utopia where everyone is equal and all wants and needs are provided.

"Beware the piper as you follow singing and dancing while he plays his beautiful tune"

And who are the "pundits" that you parrot?
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O brother, another version of Ayn Rand and Hayek coming from hell scapes and then extrapolating to Western societies what they saw under totalitarian regimes. I get so tired of reading crap like this over and over again. Let me tell you the difference. We are a nation of laws not men. We are becoming a nation of men under this horrific pimple of a man who spouts the same crap you wrote here. But we will throw the idiot out and begin anew. I am sorry about your past but there is no Western Nation being run by some form of democratic system that is going to become communist. NONE!
 
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

aociswundumho said:
Yea, progressives are always full of good intentions. Too bad they rarely get any positive results.
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lwf said:
Laws are how humans sort out their behavioral issues. Laws enforced by a governing body using coercion. That's how society works.
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How unfortunate it is that you’ve insisted on devolving the conversation to this point.

I was trying to veer you away but alas, my attempts proved futile.

Yes. In society we have laws. If you don’t follow those laws there are consequences meted out by those we’ve given authority to do so.

This is not the nature of spirit of the thread or any discussion I was having. This is childish gotcha game BS that informed no one of anything interesting. Simple premises that all understand.

Congratulations. You were wonderful. Really.
 
ChezC3 said:
How unfortunate it is that you’ve insisted on devolving the conversation to this point.

I was trying to veer you away but alas, my attempts proved futile.

Yes. In society we have laws. If you don’t follow those laws there are consequences meted out by those we’ve given authority to do so.

This is not the nature of spirit of the thread or any discussion I was having. This is childish gotcha game BS that informed no one of anything interesting. Simple premises that all understand.

Congratulations. You were wonderful. Really.
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ChezC3 said:
Well actually, no. I have no desire to control my neighbors. I am neither slave nor master. I accept neither slave nor master. I suppose I’ve overcome being all-too human.

What I very much desire is for my neighbors to control themselves.
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The point is you are no different than the average progressive. Don't try to pretend that you are somehow against government coercion to force people to follow what you think is right, and that progressives are somehow more authoritarian than conservatives. You do the same thing.
 
Empirica said:
If you seriously can't see the Progressive connection to Marx/Engels, then you're obviously living in a bubble.

Yes; there was a time Progressives camouflaged their narrative, but now days they rarely hide their true colors.
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Yes, yet, early indoctrination and bubble living are obvious in every syllable of every one of your posts and tagline. Most of us live in reality and see nuance. Caricature and cartoons make for good strawmen, but lousy discussion.
 
Empirica said:
I am indeed an avid reader of history and politics
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No dear, you are a reader of right wing propaganda and lack what it takes to understand anything you read.

The "pundits" you alluded to were actually my parents, both of which were born and raised in pre-Iron Curtain, USSR...My father was from Russia and my mother Romania.
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Location does not amount to knowledge or understanding.
 
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