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Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

KLATTU

KLATTU

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Josh Miller-Lewis
✔
@jmillerlewis
We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

- The right to health care
- The right to education
- The right to a good job
- The right to affordable housing
- The right to a secure retirement
- The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


comments?
 
KLATTU said:
Josh Miller-Lewis
✔
@jmillerlewis
We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

- The right to health care
- The right to education
- The right to a good job
- The right to affordable housing
- The right to a secure retirement
- The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


comments?
Click to expand...

I agree with all of them, with one condition. All able bodied people must be forced to work from age 18 to 70.
 
KLATTU said:
Josh Miller-Lewis
✔
@jmillerlewis
We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

- The right to health care
- The right to education
- The right to a good job
- The right to affordable housing
- The right to a secure retirement
- The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


comments?
Click to expand...

I assume he means the right to have the govt force citizens to give you those things?
 
KLATTU said:
Josh Miller-Lewis
✔
@jmillerlewis
We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

- The right to health care
- The right to education
- The right to a good job
- The right to affordable housing
- The right to a secure retirement
- The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


comments?
Click to expand...

Also, Sanders is making up words. Whats democratic socialism? Where the majority votes to redistribute wealth or control industries? We already have that. As opposed to socialism socialism where everyone agrees or authorities dont give you a choice?

He also said Trump supports corporate socialism which is another nonsense phrase. Socialism is redistributing wealth and controlling industry to achieve social equality. How would that even work on groups of people? Try to make all corporations equal? Clearly Trump isnt doing that.
 
jonny5 said:
Also, Sanders is making up words. Whats democratic socialism? Where the majority votes to redistribute wealth or control industries? We already have that. As opposed to socialism socialism where everyone agrees or authorities dont give you a choice?

He also said Trump supports corporate socialism which is another nonsense phrase. Socialism is redistributing wealth and controlling industry to achieve social equality. How would that even work on groups of people? Try to make all corporations equal? Clearly Trump isnt doing that.
Click to expand...

You would know the answers to all of your questions if you listened to him or did a quick Google search rather than spewing your ignorant crap on Internet message boards.
 
I agree, basically 100%. Personally, I think the environmental stuff should be separate - yes it will tie into economics, but it also crosses into other areas and it's not really about economics, so it seems silly in include it here. That was a similar issue to the "Green New Deal" stuff that leaked. Great ideas, but not all necessarily really related and probably shouldn't be treated as such.
 
KLATTU said:
Josh Miller-Lewis
✔
@jmillerlewis
We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

- The right to health care
- The right to education
- The right to a good job
- The right to affordable housing
- The right to a secure retirement
- The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


comments?
Click to expand...

Those are mutated definitions of rights. A real right means you can do something and the government won't punish you. The rights you listed, require someone else to pay for them save " a clean environment".
 
TurtleDude said:
Those are mutated definitions of rights. A real right means you can do something and the government won't punish you. The rights you listed, require someone else to pay for them save " a clean environment".
Click to expand...

I mostly agree.

Access to healthcare is a right. Having the government pay for it is not.
Access to housing is a right, with the caveat that there must be enough housing for everyone. Affordable housing is not a right.
There is a right to apply for employment. It is not a right that employment pays a living wage.
There is a right to retire. Social security is not a right though it gets close. More than Social security is not a right.
A clean environment is not a right, it's a community duty.
 
KLATTU said:
Josh Miller-Lewis
✔
@jmillerlewis
We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

- The right to health care
- The right to education
- The right to a good job
- The right to affordable housing
- The right to a secure retirement
- The right to a clean environment

#DemocraticSocialism

comments?
Click to expand...

The problem is that (1) all of this requires some people to pay for others and (2) makes them absolute obligations that must be pursued irrespective of the costs. It doesn't mean you should make it so that no involvement at all is the rule, but rather that caution should be exercised. It is not inconsequential to extend credit indiscriminately or outright pay for someone else to get something. Everything comes at a cost.
 
TurtleDude said:
Those are mutated definitions of rights. A real right means you can do something and the government won't punish you. The rights you listed, require someone else to pay for them save " a clean environment".
Click to expand...

Hmmm... so that would mean that former African American slaves.. did not have the right to be free?

According to that then... there is no right to be free from discrimination..
No right to strike, or work where you want
No right to get paid in dollars instead of script.

And so on.

The government wasn't punishing slaves.. nor making them slaves. etc.
 
jaeger19 said:
Hmmm... so that would mean that former African American slaves.. did not have the right to be free?

According to that then... there is no right to be free from discrimination..
No right to strike, or work where you want
No right to get paid in dollars instead of script.

And so on.

The government wasn't punishing slaves.. nor making them slaves. etc.
Click to expand...

Being free doesn't require someone else pay for it
 
TurtleDude said:
Being free doesn't require someone else pay for it
Click to expand...

Sure it did.

Being free from slavery.. not only meant that someone else had to pay for it.. it meant that slave owners had their property taken away by the government
 
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KLATTU said:
Josh Miller-Lewis
✔
@jmillerlewis
We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

- The right to health care
- The right to education
- The right to a good job
- The right to affordable housing
- The right to a secure retirement
- The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


comments?
Click to expand...

A right confers no obligation on another for you to exercise said right.

All those confer significant obligations on others, ergo they are not rights.
 
KLATTU said:
Josh Miller-Lewis
✔
@jmillerlewis
We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

- The right to health care
- The right to education
- The right to a good job
- The right to affordable housing
- The right to a secure retirement
- The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


comments?
Click to expand...

Well, if its a human right, then everyone in the world has a right to come here unimpeded.
If it’s not, then it is citizen only.

Socialism does not inspire anything beyond finding new creative ways to take other citizens money.
 
jaeger19 said:
Sure it did.

Being free from slavery.. not only meant that someone else had to pay for it.. it meant that slave owners had their property taken away by the government
Click to expand...

People should have never been property in the first place. Lets try your argument again
 
TurtleDude said:
People should have never been property in the first place. Lets try your argument again
Click to expand...

Sure.

but that does nothing to do with the fact that freedom only came.. when the government took steps to take away property... and freedom only came at the expense of blood and money (in the form of war).

Protection of rights has a price. Often it requires the sacrifices of others.. to protect the rest of the society.

Certainly our military protects YOUR freedom. That comes at a cost from others. Unless you grabbing a rifle and manning a post.

Your freedom has come at the cost of others. and in classic narcissistic selfishness... you begrudge paying for the protection of others.. when so many have paid and protected yours.
 
jaeger19 said:
Sure.

but that does nothing to do with the fact that freedom only came.. when the government took steps to take away property... and freedom only came at the expense of blood and money (in the form of war).

Protection of rights has a price. Often it requires the sacrifices of others.. to protect the rest of the society.

Certainly our military protects YOUR freedom. That comes at a cost from others. Unless you grabbing a rifle and manning a post.

Your freedom has come at the cost of others. and in classic narcissistic selfishness... you begrudge paying for the protection of others.. when so many have paid and protected yours.
Click to expand...

you're mistaken and this is a deviation from the argument at hand. A right that requires someone else to affirmatively pay you so you can exercise it-=is not a real right. You have a right to worship as you choose-I should not be taxed to build you a church. You have a right to assemble-I have no duty to build you a meeting hall.
 
TurtleDude said:
you're mistaken and this is a deviation from the argument at hand. A right that requires someone else to affirmatively pay you so you can exercise it-=is not a real right. You have a right to worship as you choose-I should not be taxed to build you a church. You have a right to assemble-I have no duty to build you a meeting hall.
Click to expand...

If that was the case.. then Americans don't have the right to be free.. because their freedom... your freedom.. has come at the cost of someone else so you could exercise it. It still comes at that cost. both monetarily and in blood. My son.. who just turned 18, has to register for selective service.. because in the case that YOUR freedom is at risk… he may be called up to sacrifice his life.. to protect your freedom.

You have the right to worship as you choose... yes.

And I pay for policemen... so that if someone tries bombing your church.. or preventing you from exercising that right... those policemen will try to stop it.. or prevent it from happening again.

You have a right to assemble.. And I pay for a whole host of people that Protect that right to assemble... from police..

To paying for a public court system that protects that right.
 
KLATTU said:
Josh Miller-Lewis
✔
@jmillerlewis
We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

- The right to health care
- The right to education
- The right to a good job
- The right to affordable housing
- The right to a secure retirement
- The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


comments?
Click to expand...

Well, we sure ain't gonna get there with a 60% (working age) labor participation rate. But, man oh man, socialism sure sounds good if you think someone else is gonna pay for it. I stlill maintain that what it means to be an American is a willingness to game the system for all you can get. Sanders is just the poster child.
 
chuckiechan said:
Well, if its a human right, then everyone in the world has a right to come here unimpeded.
If it’s not, then it is citizen only.

Socialism does not inspire anything beyond finding new creative ways to take other citizens money.
Click to expand...

Believing it is a human right doesn't necessarily mean it's the responsibility of our country to provide for other countries. That's a silly argument.

Also, no one is talking about socialism - but I find it odd that you're only ever upset when we're talking about taking money from the rich, but you don't seem to ever be upset by the flaws in capitalism which literally steal money from people who are already poor or struggling.
 
KLATTU said:
Josh Miller-Lewis
✔
@jmillerlewis
We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

- The right to health care
- The right to education
- The right to a good job
- The right to affordable housing
- The right to a secure retirement
- The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


comments?
Click to expand...

Should we have them, Yes, is it a right, No.
 
Waddy said:
Well, we sure ain't gonna get there with a 60% (working age) labor participation rate. But, man oh man, socialism sure sounds good if you think someone else is gonna pay for it. I stlill maintain that what it means to be an American is a willingness to game the system for all you can get. Sanders is just the poster child.
Click to expand...

If, by that, you mean that we allow the rich to cheat the system and get away with it, while punishing anyone who isn't rich for even thinking they deserve to live with some level of comfort.

It sounds more like you're describing a place like China, where there are virtually no regulatory policies and they really do play the system for everything they can. In the US, we've established that is not okay, but we seem to be having an argument over where the lines should be.
 
nekrodev said:
Currently, no, but it could be. That's the point.
Click to expand...

But can we afford it? That has always been my issue with Sanders, the ideas sound great but where do we get the money. We are running huge deficits and we must deal with that, otherwise none if the rest can continue for long. Can we, if we learn to manage our money, get there, sure, but first things first.
 
nekrodev said:
If, by that, you mean that we allow the rich to cheat the system and get away with it, while punishing anyone who isn't rich for even thinking they deserve to live with some level of comfort.

It sounds more like you're describing a place like China, where there are virtually no regulatory policies and they really do play the system for everything they can. In the US, we've established that is not okay, but we seem to be having an argument over where the lines should be.
Click to expand...

EVERYONE in this country games the system. Corporations have teams of lawyers working constantly on how to avoid the most taxes, get the biggest tax breaks, and even manipulate product warranties to their best advantage. Common people want all the tax breaks they can get, retirements and health care they don't have to pay for, and any other freebies they can get their hands on. We make a lifestyle feeding at the government trough. That's how we roll. And that's why Socialism is a bad idea in this country.

In a small homogeneous country like Sweden or Denmark it can work. They are pretty much one tribe. They feel a sense of responsibility toward their fellow citizens who are paying the bills. So they only take government handouts for as long as they have to. They do their best to act responsibly. Therefore, people don't mind paying such high taxes because it is not being abused. BTW; it is not corporations who pay these bills, it is the citizens. The money for social programs comes from the citizens themselves.

See the difference?
 
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