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Thread: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnFox View Post
    Video was about Bernie, so it's kinda relevant xD
    Its a debate forum, not youtube. Make an argument based on what you see in the video, with original thoughts. If whoever made that video wants to come here and do the same, they are free to do so.

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Its a debate forum, not youtube. Make an argument based on what you see in the video, with original thoughts. If whoever made that video wants to come here and do the same, they are free to do so.
    Ok then. In that video Bernie is asking are you truly free when you go bankrupt by staying at hospital, etc. But somehow people see Bernie's policies as evil plans (like this "Venezuela" narrative). Bernie really care about US, that's the rare thing about him. But I don't think he's going to win 2020. In case he win, I'm just glad, because there isn't bad intentions / motives. This clown Trump is still going strong, no matter how stupid he is, base is like group of blind sheep's. I'm 100% sure that Bernie has more empathy and he is also competent leader. No childish rage tweets or other stupid stuff. But hey, people in US like foul mouths and those who are lying all the time - that's why Trump is perfect fit xD
    Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnFox View Post
    Ok then. In that video Bernie is asking are you truly free when you go bankrupt by staying at hospital, etc. But somehow people see Bernie's policies as evil plans (like this "Venezuela" narrative). Bernie really care about US, that's the rare thing about him. But I don't think he's going to win 2020. In case he win, I'm just glad, because there isn't bad intentions / motives. This clown Trump is still going strong, no matter how stupid he is, base is like group of blind sheep's. I'm 100% sure that Bernie has more empathy and he is also competent leader. No childish rage tweets or other stupid stuff. But hey, people in US like foul mouths and those who are lying all the time - that's why Trump is perfect fit xD
    What Bernie fails to mention is that hospitals are not free. Someone has to build the building, buy the machines, pay the workers. If I am forced to pay for that so YOU can avoid going bankrupt, you may be free, but I am not.

    So yeah, Bernie is wrong, and so is forced socialism. True freedom means everyone is free and equal, not just the majority.

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    The problem is that (1) all of this requires some people to pay for others and (2) makes them absolute obligations that must be pursued irrespective of the costs. It doesn't mean you should make it so that no involvement at all is the rule, but rather that caution should be exercised. It is not inconsequential to extend credit indiscriminately or outright pay for someone else to get something. Everything comes at a cost.
    If everyone works, everyone pays taxes, and thus, no one is "paying for someone else."
    No mercy for the merciless.

    #BDS

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    What Bernie fails to mention is that hospitals are not free. Someone has to build the building, buy the machines, pay the workers. If I am forced to pay for that so YOU can avoid going bankrupt, you may be free, but I am not.

    So yeah, Bernie is wrong, and so is forced socialism. True freedom means everyone is free and equal, not just the majority.
    And then when you get cancer and need those machines paid for by tax payer dollars, I'm sure you'd be so upset and refuse their service because gosh darnit, you earned it all yourself.
    No mercy for the merciless.

    #BDS

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obscurity View Post
    And then when you get cancer and need those machines paid for by tax payer dollars, I'm sure you'd be so upset and refuse their service because gosh darnit, you earned it all yourself.
    I wouldnt need them paid by tax dollars in this hypothetical. I work. I purchase insurance to cover low risk, high cost expenses.

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    I wouldnt need them paid by tax dollars in this hypothetical. I work. I purchase insurance to cover low risk, high cost expenses.
    No reason for you to have to pay for it, and pay more for it, and recieve worse care for it.
    No mercy for the merciless.

    #BDS

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obscurity View Post
    No reason for you to have to pay for it, and pay more for it, and recieve worse care for it.
    Someone has to pay for it, and when thats bureaucrats itll cost more AND be worse. Why do you think healthcare would be different than any other product and magically be more affordable and better quality when govt is running it?

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obscurity View Post
    If everyone works, everyone pays taxes, and thus, no one is "paying for someone else."
    You're neglecting a nontrivial detail: does everyone pay the same taxes and receive the same benefits? If the answer is no, there are resources taken from some to be given to others, even if everyone is working. It's the reason why they call such policies redistributive policies: the whole point is to take from some to give to others.

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obscurity View Post
    And then when you get cancer and need those machines paid for by tax payer dollars, I'm sure you'd be so upset and refuse their service because gosh darnit, you earned it all yourself.
    You hypothesize a scenario to try to pin down someone else for a presumed degree of dishonesty, but you picked the wrong scenario. A libertarian in the US today has no choice but to live under a welfare state. As a consequence, when things go well, he is very much forced to pay up. I don't see why he should have any qualm taking advantage of the benefits when the proverbial s*hit hits the fan.

    The relevant question is not what he would do given existing social arrangements, but which society he would choose. If you catch a libertarian struck by cancer, without a fortune to his name and voting Sanders into office, then you have good reasons to claim he's a hypocrite. You know with near certainty how this man would choose behind Rawls' veil because he only votes to the right when the sky is blue. If he didn't know in advance he would be the poor man struck by cancer without a dime, he would prefer to live in a society where these people are given a chance to live through welfare programs. The point Rawls' made is that welfare programs are a mandatory society-wide insurance program against selected problems. The proper condition for choosing insurance is ex ante, hence the veil. You cannot get your money back if nothing bad happens and you can jump in when you're in trouble. It's easy to say "let everyone pay for their own things" when you're not at the bottom of this scheme. It's similar to canceling your insurance plan ex post facto. The only way you can tell if someone is committed to libertarian ideals is to see how they vote once they really need the help. Likewise for people on the left. If you turn into a billionaire and suddenly become inspired by libertarianism, that could warrant an accusation of hypocrisy.

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