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Thread: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Or maybe hes wrong. Americans value freedom above all. If your paradigm shift requires shifting priorities away from freedom, then this is wrong. Luckily we have a union of states, so people can oo prioritize social equality over freedom in their own state and leave the rest of us alone.
    Do you think you're less free in Finland? (where we have those things)

    Check this out.

    It's still true that we don't have gun rights / laws what you have in US and if you count that as really needed thing for true freedom... then Finland is - in that area - far far less free.
    Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnFox View Post
    Do you think you're less free in Finland? (where we have those things)

    Check this out.

    It's still true that we don't have gun rights / laws what you have in US and if you count that as really needed thing for true freedom... then Finland is - in that area - far far less free.
    YES, I am less free in Finland. There is no fundamental law to speech or self defense. The top marginal tax rate is over 50%! Money is freedom, and in Finland the govt takes most of it.

    And that site is bull****. It says they US isnt as free because Trump didnt win the popular vote, and russia is accused of interfering and the Senate didnt confirm Obamas nominees. Straight liberal talking points there.

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    YES, I am less free in Finland. There is no fundamental law to speech or self defense. The top marginal tax rate is over 50%! Money is freedom, and in Finland the govt takes most of it.

    And that site is bull****. It says they US isnt as free because Trump didnt win the popular vote, and russia is accused of interfering and the Senate didnt confirm Obamas nominees. Straight liberal talking points there.
    We have freedom of speech as part of our constitution. Anyway, good thing is that we both live where we are. Progressive taxes are need for funding schools, healthcare, student benefits (you get money by staying at school), housing benefits (can't afford rent? here's some..), etc.. + police, fire department, public libraries...
    Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnFox View Post
    We have freedom of speech as part of our constitution. Anyway, good thing is that we both live where we are. Progressive taxes are need for funding schools, healthcare, student benefits (you get money by staying at school), housing benefits (can't afford rent? here's some..), etc.. + police, fire department, public libraries...
    Technically you have freedom of expression in your constitution, with the caveate that the legislature can detail how you can exercise it. They've done so by prohibiting certain expressions. Thats a lot different than ours which says "congress shall make NO law abridging the freedom of speech"

    But you're proving my point. Finland unfairly taxes people to force them to have stuff. Much more than the US, which makes you less free. You do not get to directly decide what to do with your earnings, and if you earn more, you pay more for the same or less services. Standard socialism and the opposite of free.

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    User FinnFox's Avatar
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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Technically you have freedom of expression in your constitution, with the caveate that the legislature can detail how you can exercise it. They've done so by prohibiting certain expressions. Thats a lot different than ours which says "congress shall make NO law abridging the freedom of speech"

    But you're proving my point. Finland unfairly taxes people to force them to have stuff. Much more than the US, which makes you less free. You do not get to directly decide what to do with your earnings, and if you earn more, you pay more for the same or less services. Standard socialism and the opposite of free.
    Poor me then, I didn't know how miserable this place is. What you think about this?
    Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnFox View Post
    Poor me then, I didn't know how miserable this place is. What you think about this?
    Thats because you dont know any better. I dont want to watch random videos though. Im interested in your thoughts, not theirs.

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    Josh Miller-Lewis

    @jmillerlewis
    We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

    - The right to health care
    - The right to education
    - The right to a good job
    - The right to affordable housing
    - The right to a secure retirement
    - The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


    comments?
    None of them are rights. Rights do not require goods or services from others. Rights are inherent to the individual. No one has the right to demand health-care services, an education, a job, housing, retirement, or a clear environment. If you want those things you go out and earn it, you don't have a right to any of it.

    What you are describing is closer to slavery than rights. You would enslave others to provide you a service you haven't earned and don't deserve. How stereotypically leftist.

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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    Josh Miller-Lewis

    @jmillerlewis
    We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

    - The right to health care
    - The right to education
    - The right to a good job
    - The right to affordable housing
    - The right to a secure retirement
    - The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism


    comments?
    what a load of nonsense.
    people in the US have access to healthcare and good healthcare at that.
    everyone has access to an education and a college education.
    You do not have a right to a job. you have the right to apply for a job and interview for a job.
    you do not have the right to tell someone what they can or cannot charge for their property.
    Your retirement is what you make of it. people do not owe you a retirement. if you don't like what the government promises then make your own
    investments.

  9. #49
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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    Josh Miller-Lewis

    @jmillerlewis
    We need a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights:

    - The right to health care
    - The right to education
    - The right to a good job
    - The right to affordable housing
    - The right to a secure retirement
    - The right to a clean environment#DemocraticSocialism

    comments?
    Great bumper sticker thinking but none of those are "rights" in the Constitutional sense. All we are talking about are ambitions for the government to fund presumably by targeted taxation on other parties deemed responsible by whatever reasoning as to why the above list is not realized.

    Ultimately it will be the downfall of the political and ideological position that is this rise in support for Democratic Socialism.

    One complication we continually face is the difference between a right defined as protections provided by the government, against a slightly different definition as protections from the government. Just that slight shift is the difference between Democratic Socialism, or voting for more benefit from the government as some one's expense, and Constitutional Republic, or the idea of preventing the government from limiting the individual will be what we debate for years in terms of the above list.

    The right to free speech for example is what we would define as a Constitutional protection for the individual, the right to healthcare is something the government provides (or at least ensures via force) for the individual.

    Taking just the top example of the right to healthcare. All things considered we do not have a healthcare system really, we have a healthcare insurance system regulated to the hills and back on how it functions in the determination of care between the doctor providing to the patient. There is no real "system" that cookie cutters provided healthcare across the board to everyone, just various means to ensure some degree of care to some other degree of cost movement (i.e. what ends up the patient responsibility, what ends up the insurer's responsibility, and what the doctor contractually writes off as the difference between the listed charge and the negotiated charge with the insurer.)

    This ends the debate on what healthcare is in this nation on two fronts. One, Before or after ACA and going back decades to be honest, there was another party in the room in the determination of care between the doctor providing to the patient. Two, the only way to make that a "right" in the Democratic Socialism sense is a complete take over of healthcare to the point that we totally replace the healthcare insurance system with government ran healthcare. Anything short leaves multiple parties in the room between the doctor and the patient.

    And we have concluded for years that ACA was a designed stepping stone to doing just that, and the costs plus red tape aspect to all things government will be extraordinary for this "right."

    Go down the list of all these "rights" and you will find there is not enough wealth to tax to ensure all this.
    "Democracy without respect for individual rights sucks. It's just ganging up against the weird kid, and I'm always the weird kid." - Penn Jillette.

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    User FinnFox's Avatar
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    Re: Economic Bill of Rights-from the Sander camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Thats because you dont know any better. I dont want to watch random videos though. Im interested in your thoughts, not theirs.
    Video was about Bernie, so it's kinda relevant xD
    Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus

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