Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

We have FIRE regulations for a reason, yes?
Fire can be a useful tool, because it can warm your home, forge your steel and iron, cook your food, etc.
It can also burn down entire towns if left unchecked.

Capitalism is a lot like FIRE. Left unregulated and unchecked, it can become predatory and very damaging, and it can unearth some pretty awful unintended consequences. And yet when properly harnessed, capitalism can lift entire generations out of poverty, stimulate innovation and launch entirely new industries. Capitalism has demonstrated the capability to serve as a useful and rewarding tool to serve the middle class if it operates under the right kind of regulation.

So this thread is an effort to explore suggestions and ideas on how to properly regulate capitalism to do just that.

This was common sense for a long time ( Post–World War II economic expansion - Wikipedia ), but they seemed to forget all about it by the time Reagan got into office, and it's now like an ancient fable, something we knew is absolutely not true and couldn't possibly be. This, despite the fact that other countries all over the world do it. *shrug*

Tax and rich and corporations more, implement stronger protections for workers, and incentivize growth and progress, rather than just retaining the status quo.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

We have FIRE regulations for a reason, yes?
Fire can be a useful tool, because it can warm your home, forge your steel and iron, cook your food, etc.
It can also burn down entire towns if left unchecked.

Capitalism is a lot like FIRE. Left unregulated and unchecked, it can become predatory and very damaging, and it can unearth some pretty awful unintended consequences. And yet when properly harnessed, capitalism can lift entire generations out of poverty, stimulate innovation and launch entirely new industries. Capitalism has demonstrated the capability to serve as a useful and rewarding tool to serve the middle class if it operates under the right kind of regulation.

So this thread is an effort to explore suggestions and ideas on how to properly regulate capitalism to do just that.

Click to expand...

CBS:

At the core of your question is who should regulate capitalism? Should it be people elected to government by an electorate who for the most part possess a minority of the capital? Should it be regulated by the people and institutions which own/control the majority of that capital? Civil wars and revolutions have been fought to settle that question for a time, but somehow the argument is never settled. As we stumble into a new Gilded Age with greater and greater capital concentration in fewer and fewer hands that question and a parallel question will dominate public debate and quiet conversation in the halls of power. The parallel question is should democracy be regulated and controlled to protect the interests of capital? Both are chilling questions and both have the potential to transform states and societies in very powerful and fundamental ways.

World War Three is underway to determine these two paramount questions and our hearts and minds are the high ground in a global battlefield which must be dominated to win the war. We are The Somme, we are Verdun, we are Sedan, we are Stalingrad, we are Warsaw, we are Leyte Gulf, we are Mount Suribachi (IwoJima), we are Pusan, we are Dien Bien Phu, we are the Chinese Farm, we are the Tet Offensive. Our thoughts, our genes, our data, our identities, our freedom and our independence of action will be the collateral damage of this world war of enclosure.

This is a great question to launch this forum. Bravo, sir!

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

details, we need details

regulate HOW

by WHOM

controlled by WHAT

i own a business....ie i am a capitalist at heart....government going to tell me how to run my business? what to pay my vendors? my employees? how much to charge my customers?

if so, then i am no longer a businessman....just another in a long line of government managers....been there, done that...and already have my tee shirt

thanks but no thanks

i dont mind following a few rules as far as safety....and getting licenses....and dealing with the county on zoning bull****

you can keep the rest of the crap

Capitalism should be regulated by the government and the government should be responsible to the electorate and not to powerful networks of capital. Such regulation should be both from the ground up and the top down within companies and from the top down in societies and states as a whole. More will follow as time permits.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

We have FIRE regulations for a reason, yes?
Fire can be a useful tool, because it can warm your home, forge your steel and iron, cook your food, etc.
It can also burn down entire towns if left unchecked.

Capitalism is a lot like FIRE. Left unregulated and unchecked, it can become predatory and very damaging, and it can unearth some pretty awful unintended consequences. And yet when properly harnessed, capitalism can lift entire generations out of poverty, stimulate innovation and launch entirely new industries. Capitalism has demonstrated the capability to serve as a useful and rewarding tool to serve the middle class if it operates under the right kind of regulation.

So this thread is an effort to explore suggestions and ideas on how to properly regulate capitalism to do just that.

Click to expand...

What makes you think capitalism is NOT regulated? There are huge volumes of laws and regulations on the books governing the operation of our businesses. Probably far more than necessary. The reason corporate misbehavior makes news is because it's rare. There are tens of thousands of corporations and businesses out there doing business lawfully, and honorably.

nekrodev said:

This was common sense for a long time ( Post–World War II economic expansion - Wikipedia ), but they seemed to forget all about it by the time Reagan got into office, and it's now like an ancient fable, something we knew is absolutely not true and couldn't possibly be. This, despite the fact that other countries all over the world do it. *shrug*

Tax and rich and corporations more, implement stronger protections for workers, and incentivize growth and progress, rather than just retaining the status quo.

Click to expand...

Yeah, more taxes is the answer to every question. The fact the rich are already paying a huge share of taxes already doesn't matter. Worker protections? Are you kidding - the work place is awash in regulations and restrictions.

Business is heavily regulated. Unlike fire, when reduced to a certain point, it stops being capitalism and becomes socialism. In the rare cases where we find a scary thing like a monopoly is happening because of a lack of regulation, we can consider adding more. Most of the time it is because companies have broken the existing laws to cause problems and they would have broken other laws just the same.

You need to give more information on what you are asking. Are you wanting to change the existing controls on how much is paid to employees? Are you wanting to cap what someone can make? Are you wanting to ensure that all companies have the same color of shirts?

Let's be clear. Business, like every other form of human endeavor, has its bad apples. Therefore, SOME level of regulation and enforcement IS necessary. Laws must be in force to deal with contract enforcement, product and workplace safety and fair employment practices to name a few.

gdgyva said:

regulate HOW

by WHOM

controlled by WHAT

Click to expand...

this all depends. I don't think the government should "tell you how to run your business", but I think we might disagree on exactly what that means.

How? - depends on the industry, depends on our needs and our situation. are you drilling for oil? there might be more new regulations needed for that, or at least fewer incentives and subsidies. are you a small, local grocery store or auto repair shop? you're probably going to be largely unaffected. The only real issue would be minimum wage, assuming you pay employees the minimum wage, or near it, as opposed to what a "decent living" would be for your industry or area.

Whom / What? - the government. that's how it works. state, local, federal, whatever it takes, whatever is best suited for the task. i'm not sure why you split these questions, honestly.

Based on prior threads

1. they want higher taxes on higher earners....70% and up from some of them
2. they want higher corporate taxes....even though we now finally have a tax rate that competes internationally
3. they want to get rid of "at will" states, and get unions back into positions of strength
4. they want a higher min wage....which helps unions (a lot of their contracts are tied to min wage numbers) a great deal want a national number of $ 15 min
5. they want corporations and businesses to WANT to share their profits with their employees

i think i have most of them right....they are of course free to change and edit mine

gdgyva said:

Based on prior threads

1. they want higher taxes on higher earners....70% and up from some of them
2. they want higher corporate taxes....even though we now finally have a tax rate that competes internationally
3. they want to get rid of "at will" states, and get unions back into positions of strength
4. they want a higher min wage....which helps unions (a lot of their contracts are tied to min wage numbers) a great deal want a national number of $ 15 min
5. they want corporations and businesses to WANT to share their profits with their employees

i think i have most of them right....they are of course free to change and edit mine

Click to expand...

I mean, that's pretty much the progressive agenda (ie Bernie Sanders and AOC) in relation to labor, yeah, and I largely agree with it. the point of this topic isn't discussing what "libruls" wanna do, though, it's discussing why things are fine the way they are, or what you think should be done, and why.

pure and simple, few business and corporations are willing to treat their employees properly without being forced to - so clearly something is needed. what do you think it is, since i'm assuming that you don't agree with any of the points you laid out?

I believe it is regulated, a lot. Are we talking about better regulations, or just more regulations?

nekrodev said:

I mean, that's pretty much the progressive agenda (ie Bernie Sanders and AOC) in relation to labor, yeah, and I largely agree with it. the point of this topic isn't discussing what "libruls" wanna do, though, it's discussing why things are fine the way they are, or what you think should be done, and why.

pure and simple, few business and corporations are willing to treat their employees properly without being forced to - so clearly something is needed. what do you think it is, since i'm assuming that you don't agree with any of the points you laid out?

Click to expand...

nope...i dont

you work for me....you come ask for a raise

we discuss your production....are you average? above average? what have you learned in the last year to help me become more profitable? what have you taken on to increase your responsibilities? we talk....and hopefully, we can agree on whether or not you DESERVE a raise

if you feel someone out there is willing to pay you more for the same job, by all means you are welcome to go get it. dont ask me for a handout....i am in business to make money, and you having a job, and providing for YOUR family, that is a GREAT side benefit and helps the entire economy.

I give opportunities for growth, but if employees refuse those chances....when reviews come up and they dont like the results, they have no one to blame but themselves

gdgyva said:

nope...i dont

you work for me....you come ask for a raise

we discuss your production....are you average? above average? what have you learned in the last year to help me become more profitable? what have you taken on to increase your responsibilities? we talk....and hopefully, we can agree on whether or not you DESERVE a raise

if you feel someone out there is willing to pay you more for the same job, by all means you are welcome to go get it. dont ask me for a handout....i am in business to make money, and you having a job, and providing for YOUR family, that is a GREAT side benefit and helps the entire economy.

I give opportunities for growth, but if employees refuse those chances....when reviews come up and they dont like the results, they have no one to blame but themselves

Click to expand...

I wasn't asking about how you want to run your business. Maybe you're a really good boss and you pay your people enough, but that's not the case for most people. Most Americans don't make enough money to live on and save for any major issues that may come up in their life. Many Americans work full-time, and don't make enough to make ends meet at all - and have to work a 2nd or 3rd job.

But year after year, large corporations earn record breaking profits, and lay people off or move factories overseas because they didn't quite meet what their shareholders wanted. That's a problem that won't be fixed on it's own. Those companies won't give you a raise because you deserve it. They'll give you a raise, if and when, they feel like it - and inevitably, it won't be enough.

Evilroddy said:

Capitalism should be regulated by the government and the government should be responsible to the electorate and not to powerful networks of capital. Such regulation should be both from the ground up and the top down within companies and from the top down in societies and states as a whole. More will follow as time permits.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Click to expand...

But how do you separate the government from control of politicians tied into powerful networks of capital?
The system is currently working against it's best interests, and it remains to be seen whether it survives.

Who should regulate capitalism? First and foremost the entrepreneur/owners of a firm. Also the workers in a firm should have some input into the regulatory process. Final governments should both responsibly regulate and create the conditions where responsible and sustainable capitalism can flourish and multiply. To get entrepreneurs/owners to self-regulate there should be business ethics and effective economic education mandated for all primary and secondary school students in order to build a better and more responsible business ethos. To help workers better help to regulate businesses profit sharing schemes should be encouraged in parallel with union organisation so that the goals and aspirations of workers better align with those of the entrepreneurs/owners/management. Governments should be mindful of how regulation can mire a business sector and paralyse capitalism but must also not let firms off-load their responsibilities and expenses as externalities onto the society in general.

What needs to be regulated?

Property law and intellectual property laws have to be reformed and limited. They have gotten out of hand and now threaten to enclose all of human society.

Capital mobility internationally and capital's influence on a state's political institutions must be limited.

Globalism, globalisation and international trade must be heavily reformed to not be preferential to large, well-connected multinational/transnational firms at the expense of small and medium sized firms.

Technology's role in industry, commerce, and management must be better regulated so that AI and robotics do not destroy human labour markets and private intelligence, surveillance and marketing/advertisement do not end our rivals and human free will to behave responsibly as we wish.

Labour markets must be reformed and better regulated to provide living wages and upwards mobility to workers. Part-time-full-time employment and contract work must be regulated and deterred in favour of full time work, so as not to allow competitive firms to externalise costs associated with full-time employment onto society as a whole.

Pollution and environmental regulation must ensure that business bears the full cost of its production, packaging and disposal impacts on the environment and that firms evolve to become sustainable and as environmentally unimpactful as possible within reasonable parameters.

Taxation reforms must be effected to reward earned entrepreneurship and earned, productive income and to target non-productive speculative income for higher taxation. The power of financial firms must be limited and concentration of capital must be watched and regulated closely. Taxes should be progressive and not flat-taxes nor flat-rate taxes and less emphasis/dependence should be placed on regressive, indirect taxes while focusing more on direct taxation of workers, firms and organisation. Minimum taxes must be in place and special surtaxes should be levied on sectors of the economy which are too adept at avoiding taxation.

Off-shore trusts and capital annonimity must be ended with a programme as ferocious as the War on Terror since those who profit from such trusts have powerful political connections within the state. All the intelligence, law enforcement and judicial resources of the state should be directed to ending off-shore trusts and capital annonimity. An electronic transfer tax would go a long way to eroding fast moving capital being transferred repeatedly to hide it from the taxman.

More to come as time allows.

Cheers.
Evillroddy.

The Mark said:

But how do you separate the government from control of politicians tied into powerful networks of capital?
The system is currently working against it's best interests, and it remains to be seen whether it survives.

Click to expand...

The Mark:

See post #17 for a few pointers.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Anthony60 said:

I believe it is regulated, a lot. Are we talking about better regulations, or just more regulations?

Click to expand...

probably both

Checkerboard Strangler said:

We have FIRE regulations for a reason, yes?
Fire can be a useful tool, because it can warm your home, forge your steel and iron, cook your food, etc.
It can also burn down entire towns if left unchecked.

Capitalism is a lot like FIRE. Left unregulated and unchecked, it can become predatory and very damaging, and it can unearth some pretty awful unintended consequences. And yet when properly harnessed, capitalism can lift entire generations out of poverty, stimulate innovation and launch entirely new industries. Capitalism has demonstrated the capability to serve as a useful and rewarding tool to serve the middle class if it operates under the right kind of regulation.

So this thread is an effort to explore suggestions and ideas on how to properly regulate capitalism to do just that.

Click to expand...

Taxation is in huge role and I'm not sure if it can be counted as regulation. Also equally important is how tax money is used, who's getting something valuable out of it. To get better balanced outcome, you need strong democracy and by doing so you have decent tool to prevent people abusing system. Any socialistic aspect (social security/benefits) has to be regulated too, not just focusing on capitalism. I think, main question is that how country is using resources, not just material one, work force too and funny thing is that things like stability, level of education and decent standards of living are resources too. I like to see how people consider what attributes are in advanced society and what are those threatening forces going against it, slowing down process to make needed changes.

In my country, Finns Party (conservatives and only party where you can find true racists, some science deniers too) took more seats in last election (I voted Greens) and any even remotely smart Finn know that was step back. There's no way in hell that those folks have any interest go forward - staying in own bubble and deflecting critics is their way. We have always those folks with backwards ideas and now we have them even more in politics. I'm always asking what's the direction if we let those policies in and mess with our country - now they have more power and it may have some bad influence to us and even in EU.

USA is really different story, but we can still find some common ground rules about what and how is moving country to better or to worse. For me one of those are taking science seriously and let all information from research into politics - so people are not ruled by twisted policies (with that I mean science denier politics).

gdgyva said:

Based on prior threads

1. they want higher taxes on higher earners....70% and up from some of them
2. they want higher corporate taxes....even though we now finally have a tax rate that competes internationally
3. they want to get rid of "at will" states, and get unions back into positions of strength
4. they want a higher min wage....which helps unions (a lot of their contracts are tied to min wage numbers) a great deal want a national number of $ 15 min
5. they want corporations and businesses to WANT to share their profits with their employees

i think i have most of them right....they are of course free to change and edit mine

Click to expand...

Who is "they"?

Besides which, that is unresponsive to the thread. With the possible exception of wages, none of that is "regulation of capitalism".

FinnFox said:

Taxation is in huge role and I'm not sure if it can be counted as regulation. Also equally important is how tax money is used, who's getting something valuable out of it. To get better balanced outcome, you need strong democracy and by doing so you have decent tool to prevent people abusing system. Any socialistic aspect (social security/benefits) has to be regulated too, not just focusing on capitalism.

Click to expand...

This is a good point, and I don't know if any of us said it, but it should also just be so obvious that it doesn't need to be said.

The biggest problem we have in the US is that we're way far behind most European countries in terms of very basic stuff - like healthcare, labor rights, education, etc....

Taxation is obviously going to be the main method of getting money to fund the social programs, unless we were to nationalize an industry - and that, I think, might be taking it a bit too far, especially seeing as one of the main things that is usually good for that is oil, and we're trying to stop using that, so nationalizing it probably isn't a great idea. Conservatives, especially, really like to talk about how people abuse our social programs, but statistically, we have almost a negligible amount of fraud in our systems. Our biggest problem is we went from taxing the rich and large corporations at rates of 50-90% to taxing them lower than normal people making 50k a year - not to mention all the other tax credits and subsidies and **** we provide to the "job creators".

nekrodev said:

I wasn't asking about how you want to run your business. Maybe you're a really good boss and you pay your people enough, but that's not the case for most people. Most Americans don't make enough money to live on and save for any major issues that may come up in their life. Many Americans work full-time, and don't make enough to make ends meet at all - and have to work a 2nd or 3rd job.

But year after year, large corporations earn record breaking profits, and lay people off or move factories overseas because they didn't quite meet what their shareholders wanted. That's a problem that won't be fixed on it's own. Those companies won't give you a raise because you deserve it. They'll give you a raise, if and when, they feel like it - and inevitably, it won't be enough.

Click to expand...

Most Americans don't make enough money to live on and save for any major issues that may come up in their life.

why?

are they skilled?

did they educate themselves when they had the opportunity?

what have they done to increase their skillset? have they taken on additional responsibilities at work?

you think "everyone" deserves a decent wage....i say everyone is entitled to WORK FOR a decent wage

that is our difference in philosophy

i wont GIVE AWAY anything except for checks to charities i deem responsible

as for employees, i make them EARN everything....

nekrodev said:

I wasn't asking about how you want to run your business. Maybe you're a really good boss and you pay your people enough, but that's not the case for most people. Most Americans don't make enough money to live on and save for any major issues that may come up in their life. Many Americans work full-time, and don't make enough to make ends meet at all - and have to work a 2nd or 3rd job.

But year after year, large corporations earn record breaking profits, and lay people off or move factories overseas because they didn't quite meet what their shareholders wanted. That's a problem that won't be fixed on it's own. Those companies won't give you a raise because you deserve it. They'll give you a raise, if and when, they feel like it - and inevitably, it won't be enough.

Click to expand...

as far as corporations, they have shareholders they are beholden to....not their employees

the employees dont have to work there....they can work elsewhere....no one is forcing a gun to the persons head making them accept their wage

it is a decision that the employee makes....and if you think you can run a business better, by all means get in the game....get your friends together and start competing

you will see it isnt as easy as you think it is.....

NWRatCon said:

Who is "they"?

Besides which, that is unresponsive to the thread. With the possible exception of wages, none of that is "regulation of capitalism".

Click to expand...

see post # 12