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Thread: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

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    Re: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by James972 View Post
    What we learn from " The New Jim Crow" is that liberal programs attacked the black community and created the school to prison pipeline and the street corner to prison pipeline. Do you understand? What did you learn fro the new Jim Crow?? Afraid to tell us??
    My lord, that record of yours is stuck ain't it? The New Jim Crow laws were a vast set of federal and state/local laws that were supported by one and all at the time. All that is but for the minorities they targeted. Joe Biden is feeling the heat about it right now as he should. I can think of many leftees in government who did not support the war on drugs or the prison pipeline, no conservative comes to mind. This all started with Nixon. Read more, talk less James.
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    Re: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadinho View Post
    The New Jim Crow laws were a vast set of federal and state/local laws that were supported by one and all at the time.
    Yes, a reaction to the deadly liberal programs that turned many, especially blacks, into criminals. THe choice was eliminate the deadly liberal programs or incarcerate its victims. Still the best choice is to eliminate the deadly liberal programs but liberals instead want more of them like a junkie wants more heroine. Now do you understand?

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    Re: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadinho View Post
    Did it not occur to you that the act was a reaction to real estate agents telling prospective buyers that the neighborhood was black or turning black? Looking at laws like this from a viewpoint of 50 years away is misleading and unfair. Does the act need updating to cover some of the issues we face today? Probably but never forget that prior to acts like these, racial discrimination in housing was legal and pervasive. That is how we got black ghettos in almost every city in the nation.
    In the early 1900s, Harlem was a pristine, affluent and white neighborhood. Landlords and real estate promoters tried to organize a movement to bar black people from renting apartments or buying real estates. Do I need to say that it failed miserably? That is in spite of a considerably more racist culture and a complete absence of governmental intervention. The reason is obvious: it doesn't matter who pays rent or buys a building, it only matters that the money gets in your pocket. On the other hand, building regulations and urban committees in large cities did manage to turn a few cities from a black majority to a white majority. That's what happened in San Francisco in the 1970s and 1980s. The government limited development in the Bay Area in the name of a plethora of "laudable" causes, eventually pricing the poorer black majority out of the city. Everyone who owned property early enough got enriched massively, they create a homelessness crisis and some of the world's biggest traffic jam problems... It sounds like 100% the opposite of the promise every single Democrat made in California since the early 1980s. It's ironic because loosening laws would let the supply of housing expand and many of those problems would decrease in severity.

    Some of the worst private intentions fail because hateful people tend to like their wallet more than they hate you. Some of the best intentions of public officials lead to catastrophes because policies that sound helpful can have very bad unintended consequences. It doesn't mean racism doesn't exist and never played a role anywhere. It means you have to be careful not to assume markets don't tend to work against racism (they tend to do it) and not to assume governments work against it (they sometimes work for it). It's harder to fight racism than it seems.

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    Re: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadinho View Post
    My lord, that record of yours is stuck ain't it? The New Jim Crow laws were a vast set of federal and state/local laws that were supported by one and all at the time. All that is but for the minorities they targeted. Joe Biden is feeling the heat about it right now as he should. I can think of many leftees in government who did not support the war on drugs or the prison pipeline, no conservative comes to mind. This all started with Nixon. Read more, talk less James.
    Republicans have been singing to roughly the same tune for over 150 years. Protect individual liberties, promote individual responsibility, enforce laws and punish criminals.

    If you read speeches by Lincoln, they sound like Republicans today. The same sorts of ideas were used to abolish slavery, fight segregation laws and pass civil rights laws. All of this was done with people who believed in small governments and free markets and the opposition on the other side always believed using governmental powers to enforce their vision. Democrats earned the black vote in the 1930s by buying up the support of the very people they despised the most with the New Deal. A majority of Democrats voted against civil rights in the 1960s and, save for one Democrat, all those racists died as blue and as bigotted as they were in the heyday of the rampant racism they instituted. Once Democrats figured out they could bundle up voters in minorities by convincing them of their victimhood and pledging to pour taxpayer money in their pockets, they started to look like what they look like today.

    Do you know the irony? Courts started to expand the ability of criminals to evade punishment in the 1950s through the 1970s and the Johnson administration launched the federal government on a path to massively expand welfare programs. Expenditures exploded in a matter of 5 years. It sounds like what people have in mind when they think about helping out the poor and fighting crime in black neighborhoods today... The poverty rate did not budge, even if the programs were initially sold as a means to save government expenditures later, and crime rates skyrocketed (no exaggeration). To understand the enormity, you have to understand crime rates were trending downwards for the past 15 or so years, and so were teenage pregnancies, and many positive trends were established prior to the 1960s. Now, fathers are disproportionately more often missing in black communities and single motherhood much more prevalent. It's one of the nice trends that reversed in the 1960s.


    Yeah... I'm sure Republicans have been racist since the 1970s. Though you probably forgot that the racist Democrats of the 1960s were still Democrats in the 1970s and that it's not the Republican views on crime, welfare or regulations which prevailed in the 1960s and 1970s. It's also the case that Republicans have always been complaining about those views, that the proponents of those programs predicted exactly the opposite of what happened and that Republicans predicted exactly what happened. Even if you tried to say it's just a coincidence, it's a big pill to swallow, but to put that on the back of Republicans. No. Democrats did this -- racist Democrats, must I add.

    I don't think the war on drug was fine. It probably was stupid and still is stupid, but I don't hold the silly view that because a law has a disproportionate impact on black people that it's racist.

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    Re: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    Republicans have been singing to roughly the same tune for over 150 years. Protect individual liberties, promote individual responsibility, enforce laws and punish criminals.

    If you read speeches by Lincoln, they sound like Republicans today. The same sorts of ideas were used to abolish slavery, fight segregation laws and pass civil rights laws. All of this was done with people who believed in small governments and free markets and the opposition on the other side always believed using governmental powers to enforce their vision. Democrats earned the black vote in the 1930s by buying up the support of the very people they despised the most with the New Deal. A majority of Democrats voted against civil rights in the 1960s and, save for one Democrat, all those racists died as blue and as bigotted as they were in the heyday of the rampant racism they instituted. Once Democrats figured out they could bundle up voters in minorities by convincing them of their victimhood and pledging to pour taxpayer money in their pockets, they started to look like what they look like today.

    Do you know the irony? Courts started to expand the ability of criminals to evade punishment in the 1950s through the 1970s and the Johnson administration launched the federal government on a path to massively expand welfare programs. Expenditures exploded in a matter of 5 years. It sounds like what people have in mind when they think about helping out the poor and fighting crime in black neighborhoods today... The poverty rate did not budge, even if the programs were initially sold as a means to save government expenditures later, and crime rates skyrocketed (no exaggeration). To understand the enormity, you have to understand crime rates were trending downwards for the past 15 or so years, and so were teenage pregnancies, and many positive trends were established prior to the 1960s. Now, fathers are disproportionately more often missing in black communities and single motherhood much more prevalent. It's one of the nice trends that reversed in the 1960s.


    Yeah... I'm sure Republicans have been racist since the 1970s. Though you probably forgot that the racist Democrats of the 1960s were still Democrats in the 1970s and that it's not the Republican views on crime, welfare or regulations which prevailed in the 1960s and 1970s. It's also the case that Republicans have always been complaining about those views, that the proponents of those programs predicted exactly the opposite of what happened and that Republicans predicted exactly what happened. Even if you tried to say it's just a coincidence, it's a big pill to swallow, but to put that on the back of Republicans. No. Democrats did this -- racist Democrats, must I add.

    I don't think the war on drug was fine. It probably was stupid and still is stupid, but I don't hold the silly view that because a law has a disproportionate impact on black people that it's racist.
    There was nothing silly about creating laws that targeted black drug users and ignored white drug users. In the 80s when this stuff was passed, every single frat house in the country was filled with coke, pot, LSD and who knows what else. Ever hear of a SWAT team invading a frat house at Kansas U? No. Those laws were racist in origin, end of story.
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    Re: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadinho View Post
    Those laws were racist in origin, end of the story.
    First of all, even if we take your word that resources to fight drugs were misallocated across ethnic groups, you do not seem to understand it would be a fallacy to conclude racism is the cause of such misallocation. Racism is one of many possible reasons to disparate impacts.

    Second of all, your interpretation runs against 150 years of history. To my knowledge, Republicans were behind the idea that crime must be punished throughout the entire 20th century. You have to look through the ranks of Democrats to find supporters of a more therapeutic view of justice. You would have us believe that the same guys who fought racism and Segregation (Republicans) twenty years prior, who lost the racist South throughout the 1960s and 1970s (yes, Nixon didn't carry the racist South and you may check that), decided they would pander to a dying breed of racists by voting in place the same tough-on-crime types of policies they supported for the past century?

    You argue against the policies, you can say that the impacts were disproportionately bad for black people, that drugs should be legalized, etc., but trying to sell the idea Republicans strategically implemented racist policies in the 1980s and 1990s is just nonsense. The simplest explanation is they just kept making the same argument for decades that crime can be deterred by punishment, especially punishment whose enforcement is highly probable.

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    Re: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    First of all, even if we take your word that resources to fight drugs were misallocated across ethnic groups, you do not seem to understand it would be a fallacy to conclude racism is the cause of such misallocation. Racism is one of many possible reasons to disparate impacts.

    Second of all, your interpretation runs against 150 years of history. To my knowledge, Republicans were behind the idea that crime must be punished throughout the entire 20th century. You have to look through the ranks of Democrats to find supporters of a more therapeutic view of justice. You would have us believe that the same guys who fought racism and Segregation (Republicans) twenty years prior, who lost the racist South throughout the 1960s and 1970s (yes, Nixon didn't carry the racist South and you may check that), decided they would pander to a dying breed of racists by voting in place the same tough-on-crime types of policies they supported for the past century?

    You argue against the policies, you can say that the impacts were disproportionately bad for black people, that drugs should be legalized, etc., but trying to sell the idea Republicans strategically implemented racist policies in the 1980s and 1990s is just nonsense. The simplest explanation is they just kept making the same argument for decades that crime can be deterred by punishment, especially punishment whose enforcement is highly probable.
    Very clever rhetoric meant to blame no one especially the mindset that originated these harsh punishments selectively and knowingly to only a select group of Americans, the black, the brown and rarely their social equivalent white person. It is no mystery why marijuana was criminalized in the 30s. There is no question why crack was deemed more of a scourge then coke. Laws and punishments were not created in a vacuum. The inevitable decline of middle class black America began with zoning laws pushing them into small areas in major cities. Unionization and the public sector provided good paying jobs for these families but the New Jim Crow was relentless in it's desire to keep the black population in check. When the crime ridden streets of most urban areas started to blow up in riots, decay, white flight, drugs, guns and corruption, it was easy to see how politicians of either stripe used the fear of blackness to gain election. Nixon used it in 68, Reagan made it sound like tales from Grandpa in 1980 and the weak willed left went along for the ride. Three strikes laws, disparate sentencing guidelines and enforcement, loss of jobs due to "market forces", massive incarceration of black men for crimes white men did all the time without harm, it all ended up feeding the beast that created Trump. I can tell you truthfully that if every felony committed by boomers had been prosecuted, half the damn boomer generation would be in jail if only for drug offenses. No one is going to tell me that our current racial tensions is not due to a systematic attempt to put them in the hell holes we prefer as a society.

    Ever wonder why rural America is almost devoid of black people with the exception of small pockets of the South? Go read "Warmth of Other Suns" for a good primer on why this is so.
    Your mother swims after cruise ships.

    'The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.' Anatole France

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    Re: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadinho View Post
    Very clever rhetoric meant to blame no one (...).
    Here is racism in a nutshell: your judgment or actions depends on the race of the person concerned. The only nonracist policy is to be blind to race. One yardstick for everyone, one set of rules for everyone. Now that is equality.

    If someone is to blame for any remanence of racism in the United States today, nearly all of them vote blue, call themselves progressives and espouse racist policies under the guise of social justice. And you do not need to invoke intentions that we do not observe and you do not need to assume anyone needs to possess an enigma machine to translate words from English to Racist. It's written black on white in their arguments and the laws they support using the language they chose and every word is taken to have a common, public meaning that can be corroborated in any dictionary. Those people are racists. They make asinine comments about the paramount value of biological heritage and other irrelevant idiosyncrasies and they have the audacity, just like you, to project all of their own opinions on other people.

    The conservative ideal is that the Founding Fathers got things pretty close to right: all human beings are equal, hence you treat all of them the same.


    You can even compare how the Left and Donald Trump talks about immigration today. Trump distinguishes between people who enter legally and people who enter illegally. Among those who enter legally, he draws distinctions between areas who pose more or less serious threats to the safety of all Americans, and those who will make positive contributions and those who won't. It doesn't mention skin color or religion. You have to imagine intentions never stated and codes never revealed to call that racist because there is never any direct mapping to be made between what he says and skin color, or what he does and skin color. Contrast with Ocasio-Cortez. When she talks about immigration, how does she frame the problem? That's what I thought.

    Open your damn eyes. Conservatives have been on the same side since the party was created. They like families, individual liberties, personal responsibility, and their country because it stands for those values. They dislike government schemes, regulations, unequal treatment of people, and people who are dependent on taxpayers. It has always been like that. Democrats have always stood for discriminatory policies of one form or another. They used to have content slaves as their moral stance. Now, they have content single mothers and unemployed minorities.


    You can count as respectable Democrats all those who openly speak against political correctness and virulently oppose identity politics. Bill Maher is one example. He would disagree with me that Republicans aren't racists, but he routinely rips jokes at the PC police and other identitarian radicals. We agree where it matters. Pick your side. I'm on the side of Lincoln: the values expressed in the founding documents of the United States are what will kill discrimination. The ideas peddled by AOC and her ilk are antithetical to freedom and as unamerican as they get.

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    Re: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    It means you have to be careful not to assume markets don't tend to work against racism (they tend to do it) and not to assume governments work against it (they sometimes work for it). It's harder to fight racism than it seems.
    Absolutely!! If Black or Chinese or Asian or female workers were good and got less pay a company could hire only them and then price under the competition and drive them into bankruptcy. Capitalism is a minorities best friend.

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    Re: Why shouldn't capitalism be better regulated?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    I'm on the side of Lincoln: the values expressed in the founding documents of the United States are what will kill discrimination. The ideas peddled by AOC and her ilk are antithetical to freedom and as unamerican as they get.
    Good point! All men are created equal. No welfare for some and not for others. All is does is create moral hazard and slow down progress.

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