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Thread: Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

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    Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

    What we should have learned in a Civics Class:
    *All democracies have three fundamental characteristics: The independence of the Executive, the Legislative and the Judicial powers. These three "independent" bodies are the only guaranties of real freedom of a nation from "usurpation" of political power.
    *All such democracies employ the popular-vote to designate their representative to the Executive and Legislative positions, with the exception of the Judiciary (that is nominated by the Executive, but approved by the Legislature).
    *All political offices (local, state and national) in a truly democratic nation will be obtained by means of the popular-vote and only the popular-voting process.
    *The voting regulations will describe and conduct fair voting-procedures at regular intervals in order to assure the collective consent by means of a popular-vote of the nation's constituents of voting age.
    *By "fair voting procedures" is meant:
    **No voter with a proper identity card, of a stipulated age, and proving their residence will be forbidden to vote.
    **No voting district will be "gerrymandered" to concentrate the vote favoring any political party
    **Voting hours and procedures will be fair and honest to accommodate the largest number possible of all voters.
    Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them; then neither persons nor property will be safe. (Frederick Douglass)

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    Re: Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    What we should have learned in a Civics Class:
    *All democracies have three fundamental characteristics: The independence of the Executive, the Legislative and the Judicial powers. These three "independent" bodies are the only guaranties of real freedom of a nation from "usurpation" of political power.
    *All such democracies employ the popular-vote to designate their representative to the Executive and Legislative positions, with the exception of the Judiciary (that is nominated by the Executive, but approved by the Legislature).
    *All political offices (local, state and national) in a truly democratic nation will be obtained by means of the popular-vote and only the popular-voting process.
    *The voting regulations will describe and conduct fair voting-procedures at regular intervals in order to assure the collective consent by means of a popular-vote of the nation's constituents of voting age.
    *By "fair voting procedures" is meant:
    **No voter with a proper identity card, of a stipulated age, and proving their residence will be forbidden to vote.
    **No voting district will be "gerrymandered" to concentrate the vote favoring any political party
    **Voting hours and procedures will be fair and honest to accommodate the largest number possible of all voters.
    And now begins the hunting of the snark.

    But in all fairness, we must do something about gerrymandering.

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    Re: Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    And now begins the hunting of the snark.

    But in all fairness, we must do something about gerrymandering.
    The problem is with gerrymandering is neither party wants to get rid of it. Each party relishes the idea of using gerrymandering when they are in power. They write our election laws and as such they could do away with gerrymandering in a heartbeat if they had a mind to. They don't. Their rhetoric may say so, but it is one big lie.

    After the 2010 census the Democrats gerrymandered the heck out of Illinois and New York, Republicans howled how unfair that was and gerrymandering had to end. But the Republicans gerrymandered Texas and North Carolina after the same 2010 census while the democrats ranted and raved at the injustice of the GOP gerrymandering those states. Each major party wants to make it unlawful for the other party to gerrymander while keeping gerrymandering legal for their party.

    State legislatures draw the districts in most states, each state legislature could draw un-gerrymandered districts. They won't, they want to give their political party the best advantage possible. While I also think gerrymandering needs to end, I don't see it ever doing so. Not as long as gerrymandering can give one political party an advantage over the other.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    The problem is with gerrymandering is neither party wants to get rid of it. Each party relishes the idea of using gerrymandering when they are in power. They write our election laws and as such they could do away with gerrymandering in a heartbeat if they had a mind to. They don't. Their rhetoric may say so, but it is one big lie.

    After the 2010 census the Democrats gerrymandered the heck out of Illinois and New York, Republicans howled how unfair that was and gerrymandering had to end. But the Republicans gerrymandered Texas and North Carolina after the same 2010 census while the democrats ranted and raved at the injustice of the GOP gerrymandering those states. Each major party wants to make it unlawful for the other party to gerrymander while keeping gerrymandering legal for their party.

    State legislatures draw the districts in most states, each state legislature could draw un-gerrymandered districts. They won't, they want to give their political party the best advantage possible. While I also think gerrymandering needs to end, I don't see it ever doing so. Not as long as gerrymandering can give one political party an advantage over the other.
    And how would you end gerrymandering? We can try to get as non partisan as possible but we know that's impossible think about how the judiciary is supposed to be non partisan. And as long as groups vote the same way it's easy to know exactly what the effect will be when you draw a map.

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    Re: Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    The problem is with gerrymandering is neither party wants to get rid of it. Each party relishes the idea of using gerrymandering when they are in power. They write our election laws and as such they could do away with gerrymandering in a heartbeat if they had a mind to. They don't. Their rhetoric may say so, but it is one big lie.

    After the 2010 census the Democrats gerrymandered the heck out of Illinois and New York, Republicans howled how unfair that was and gerrymandering had to end. But the Republicans gerrymandered Texas and North Carolina after the same 2010 census while the democrats ranted and raved at the injustice of the GOP gerrymandering those states. Each major party wants to make it unlawful for the other party to gerrymander while keeping gerrymandering legal for their party.

    State legislatures draw the districts in most states, each state legislature could draw un-gerrymandered districts. They won't, they want to give their political party the best advantage possible. While I also think gerrymandering needs to end, I don't see it ever doing so. Not as long as gerrymandering can give one political party an advantage over the other.
    It is also not quite clear, how to get rid of gerrymandering in the first place. Anything you do could be so interpreted, if it changes the status quo. Possibly the only way to go is to have all parties active in a State be required with one vote each to agree on district lines for the vote. Where they cannot decide the lines stay the same as before.

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    Re: Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    And how would you end gerrymandering? We can try to get as non partisan as possible but we know that's impossible think about how the judiciary is supposed to be non partisan. And as long as groups vote the same way it's easy to know exactly what the effect will be when you draw a map.
    There probably isn't any way to completely end gerrymandering. But one way to make it fairer would be a rule or law that any state must keep as many counties whole as possible. No dividing up counties into different districts unless it is necessary which it will always be so in a few counties to keep each district near or at the same population threshold.

    It can be done, I did it for Georgia using just the population figures of her 159 counties, a stubby pencil and a sheet of paper. I only had to divide up 8 counties and all 14 districts would have been within 5% of the average threshold. Of course you would have districts heavily urban and other rural. You would still have fairly safe districts. But there would be none of this dividing a county up between two, three or four districts. You may have several districts within a county that contains a large city. But that is the way the cookie crumbles.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    It is also not quite clear, how to get rid of gerrymandering in the first place. Anything you do could be so interpreted, if it changes the status quo. Possibly the only way to go is to have all parties active in a State be required with one vote each to agree on district lines for the vote. Where they cannot decide the lines stay the same as before.
    I put forth my idea in post number 6. Now before gerrymandering ends, we would have to do away with federal mandated or court mandated gerrymandering majority minority districts. There would be a ton of problems with any idea that would have to be overcome. Even when a state initiates an independent commission, it seems they really aren't all that independent. California did that and it seems from reading several articles they drew district lines more in favor of the Democrats than if the democratic state legislature would have drawn them. Good idea ending gerrymandering, but how is the big question. It probably never can be done away with.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

    Treat it like jury duty. This is not a complicated task, you simply don't want someone who has access to census voting data doing, just access to population size. Randomly tap people each year, or every couple years, to change or adjust the map. All you need is a map with population laid out by area, and a calculator.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

    Thank you for this info! really touching!!

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    Re: Fair voting, election guidelines and separation of powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    The problem is with gerrymandering is neither party wants to get rid of it. Each party relishes the idea of using gerrymandering when they are in power. They write our election laws and as such they could do away with gerrymandering in a heartbeat if they had a mind to. They don't. Their rhetoric may say so, but it is one big lie.

    After the 2010 census the Democrats gerrymandered the heck out of Illinois and New York, Republicans howled how unfair that was and gerrymandering had to end. But the Republicans gerrymandered Texas and North Carolina after the same 2010 census while the democrats ranted and raved at the injustice of the GOP gerrymandering those states. Each major party wants to make it unlawful for the other party to gerrymander while keeping gerrymandering legal for their party.

    State legislatures draw the districts in most states, each state legislature could draw un-gerrymandered districts. They won't, they want to give their political party the best advantage possible. While I also think gerrymandering needs to end, I don't see it ever doing so. Not as long as gerrymandering can give one political party an advantage over the other.
    Iowa is not gerrymandered, and as far as I am aware the only state in the union not. They have a computerized system based on just population and area. Its seems to work and there have been few complaints about the system.
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