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Thread: Absolute Logic

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    Re: Absolute Logic

    Then wouldn't that be based on the emotional attachment to your mother overriding your consideration for the lives of 1000 people? Need logic even be applied!?

    OH! the futility!

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    Re: Absolute Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Then wouldn't that be based on the emotional attachment to your mother overriding your consideration for the lives of 1000 people? Need logic even be applied!?

    OH! the futility!
    Not just emotional attachment but the value from it. Those people have no value to me, my mother does. How in earth would it be logical for me to save people that don't help me in any tangible way rather than my mother who I do have an attachment to and helps me?

    Numbers don't matter, I'd rather have one mass effect game than a million ****ty games. Would it be logical for me to choose all of the garbage instead of the gem?

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    Re: Absolute Logic

    You'd be quite a dog to do something like that. But nonetheless the decision doesn't even boil down to logic. Really it boils down to acting on your personal impetus...

    but what drives that?


    Oh, the confoundity of it all!

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    Re: Absolute Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Someone using logic would recognize that there were many alternative options available.
    There are always logical options if you know what they are.

    Getting from point A to point B, for example, logically, you could fly, take a car, a bus, a train, walk, run or crawl.

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    Re: Absolute Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    There is logic, emotion, "right", "wrong", and every other preconcieved notion out there.

    I am posting an ordeal where one chooses between absolute logic and emotion. Stick to the story, make your choice, and explain why.
    _

    Let us say you and your mother were lost in the frozen barren woods. You had kindling, a lighter, a knife, rocks, and little hope. Your mother was slowly succumbing to the atmosphere and neither of you had food. (Here we go) Would you kill your mother and survie through cannibalism because absolute logic dictates that you must do so to survive? Or would you let her be because you love her and would rather starve?

    _

    That is all. I'm trying to illuminate why absolute logic cares not for morality or emotions. I am showing why emotions are an important and credible aspect in argumentation. There is no other alternatives in this story. It must be a hard choice with deep reasons.

    What are your thoughts and, more importantly, what would you do?
    The Survival is not an “absolute logic”,

    The “absolute logic” satisfies all concerned,
    Otherwise, This is not “absolute logic”.
    But, this is “self service”!!!

    You tell a story of two people,
    This is your imagination that sees nothing in the circumstance except cannibalism,

    When a powerful and a weak sit together, this is the responsibility of the powerful to protect weak!!! This is “absolute logic”!!!

    Snake eats own babies in “absolute hunger”,
    Pigeon do not eat pigeon in “absolute hunger”,
    So, “absolute logic” is different for different minds,

    There is a hope when you have wood, knife, rocks, kindling, lighter,
    They can survive!!!

    You know?
    To plan a condition or to deliver a lecture on an imaginary condition is different, and,
    To act in a condition is entirely different,
    This is ability,

    Many experts talk on economy,
    But, in a situation they fail to produce results,
    They just continue to swim in the recession like ducks,

    Have you or Christiana Amanpur or any TV ever asked financial experts about “absolute logic”???

    What you call “absolute logic” is a joke and absolutely irrelevant to others.

  6. #46
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    Re: Absolute Logic

    Well, I think what that's trying to get at is "are some beliefs/ideas worth dying for". I think the answer for most people is yes.

    Some people may very well believe that not killing the person that brought you into this world, is more important than their own survival.

    But as people point out, that's only because you introduced the concept of precognition, being certain your mother will die. Typically that's not the case.

    Let's assume you are correct, your mother will die in 4 days even if you reasonably find some food/shelter. How do you know a rescue party won't show up tomorrow? You're there licking your fingers after eating your moms and the rescue party looks around and then says "WTF is going on you sick ****!" and then they shoot you out of rage and disgust.

    That's logical too you know

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    Re: Absolute Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Well, I think what that's trying to get at is "are some beliefs/ideas worth dying for". I think the answer for most people is yes.

    Some people may very well believe that not killing the person that brought you into this world, is more important than their own survival.

    But as people point out, that's only because you introduced the concept of precognition, being certain your mother will die. Typically that's not the case.

    Let's assume you are correct, your mother will die in 4 days even if you reasonably find some food/shelter. How do you know a rescue party won't show up tomorrow? You're there licking your fingers after eating your moms and the rescue party looks around and then says "WTF is going on you sick ****!" and then they shoot you out of rage and disgust.

    That's logical too you know
    So, you are saying the rescuers will look at the cooked mom and say "omgwtfbbq"?

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    Re: Absolute Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    So, you are saying the rescuers will look at the cooked mom and say "omgwtfbbq"?
    Exactly, the power of brainstorming at work.

    Or that many intended rescuers get stranded themselves, they may have all been starving too. It may have been the aroma of Mom on the barbe that lead them to the camp in the first place.

    I think it should be standard practice to carry a dry-rub packet in survival gear just in case you need to put a friend or loved one on the spit.

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    Re: Absolute Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    I'm trying to illuminate why absolute logic cares not for morality or emotions. I am showing why emotions are an important and credible aspect in argumentation.
    well, we have a few problems with the set up.

    firstly, your initial premise is loaded. you are honest in that, anyway. you are "trying to show" what you have already concluded. there would seem to be little room for debate. of course, that is not going to stop anyone who loves this sorta thing.

    secondly, you begin with a supposition that is seriously flawed - emotion and reason are not in opposition, nor are reason and morality. in its best guise, morality is a product of reason. That "emotions are an important and credible aspect in argumentation" is perfectly rational without your attempting to show that logic is amoral.

    logically, you have four possible outcomes:
    • i survive
    • my mother survives
    • we both survive
    • neither survives.

    logic takes a different approach than morality. logic goes for (most) certain, morality goes for 'most good'. the latter puts the definition of 'good' into question, but we can delay that for now. let us quantify our options:
    • best resolution: both survive.
    • least good resolution: neither survives
    • most probable resolution: one survives by eating the other.
    • optimal resolution: if only one survives, the one that survives, survives best (that is, the one in the better condition to start with)

    note, that "I survive" is not in there. that "I survive" is not necessarily the most rational conclusion. killing my mother in order that i survive by eating her is no more rational than allowing her to kill me so that she may survive by eating me. That "I survive" is a personal psycho-emotional preference. as you posit the scenario, it sounds as if "i survive" is the most rational option. except that it may not be.

    it is not rational, to chose to harm oneself. It is not rational, per se, to choose to harm another. to harm another to defend oneself may be rational, if in defending yourself you do not cause greater harm to yourself than in not harming the other.

    if it hurts to do something, even if that something is needed to survive, it is still rational to choose not to do so if the pain of doing so is greater than the pain in NOT doing so. If the pain in killing, butchering, cooking and eating your mother causes you greater psychological harm than in closing your eyes and accepting your fate, it is perfectly rational to accept your fate.

    the question you are asking is like asking 'which is better? a claw hammer or an acetelene torch?". the answer depends a lot on what you are going to use it for. reason and nonreason are tools, both of them useful, but not necessarily for the same things. is your objective to be moral or to survive? there are times ya know, when those two objectives are not wholly compatible - ask any soldier come home from the war.

    finally, morality does not exist in a vacuum. arguably, it is not moral or immoral to act in anyway that does not affect another.

    morality is subjective. is it moral to eat another to save yourself? many would say yes.
    is it moral to kill another in order to eat them in order to save yourself? many would still say yes but more would say no.

    reason, is less subjective. the two propositions above are rationally equal, but not morally equal.

    if we 'objectify' the question - if we determine that there is a GOOD that is not subective (hard to do, but for argument's sake...), can we still address the question?

    we again start with a difficulty - you have not established a relationship between reason and good. good is an objective, reason is a path. reason can lead you to the objective, but reaching the objective without employing reason is still reaching the objective. sometimes, **** happens... sometimes, some really GOOD **** happens.

    whaddya do when you meet a Grizzly inna woods? your emotions tell you to RUUUUUUUUUUN! if you have any knowledge of grizzlies, though, reason tells you that running will likely lead to your abrupt dismemberment. reason tells you to harness your fear, roll into a ball protecting the soft parts and do not move.

    importantly, fear here is still very much at work. reason would have no fuel on which to operate without the fear that tells you that you MUST do something and do it quick. reason and passion work hand in hand when they work best.

    again, we come back to apt useage. when your girlfriend is considering leaving you for another guy because he makes her laugh... do not try to reason her out of it... get down on your knees and beg.. cry.. wail and plead. probably won't work, but it stands a better chance than reason because her cause for leaving is not based on reason but emotion. IF she says yes, reason might help in determining how to KEEP her... and that reason may tell you to be more passionate.

    in debate, we have pretty specific ends. for some, WIN at any cost - for others, get the rightest and truest answer. (i am lucky in that. In my case, those two things tend to go together). in your arguments, bring your passion. let your passion propel you, but let your reason guide you. passion is an important part of rhetoric, of convincing speech. but reason leads more often to right answers.

    no, i would not kill another to save myself. if the other died, yeah, i would probably eat them, but probably not if it were someone i loved.

    geo.
    Last edited by Geo Patric; 04-21-11 at 05:17 PM.

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    Re: Absolute Logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Of course not. Many don't.

    I see that emotions and notions of morality are keeping people from doing what logic in its purest form dictates.

    Survival. (Is that not what evolutionists pine for, or do they not believe in thier notions to the fullest extent?)
    ya gotta learn a bit more about evolution. survival is the driving force of life.. of living things. that does not mean that it is the first law for every living thing... or suicide would be unknown.

    logic does not dictate that you sacrifice another to save yourself.

    geo.

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