• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Absolute Logic

Very true. But you bring up an excellent point. Limiting such a situation to two options is inherently irrational. Someone using logic would recognize that there were many alternative options available.

nah, binary hypothesis are legitimate, even when posited in ways where, in reality, there would be more options. he is dancing around syllogistic logic which has its limitations, to be sure, but is still a fundmental tool of reason.

geo.
 
It's not a question of which is greater, it's more about acknowledging the strengths and limitations of both. . . I came to understand many years ago, that human beings are made up of two things, or forces, that govern our existence. We are animals as well as spiritual beings . . . What I've found is, anyone who relies too heavily on one over the other, is someone who will make a lot of bad decisions . . .

interesting... my story is much the same, except that it was emotions that dragged my ass through the mire... my lovely intellect is what saves me. in the end though, you see, we came to much the same conclusions, though i see intellect and passion (not spriit... we can identify emotion, there is no reason to believe in spirit).

and you can see what fuels my political stance in that as well. political decisions made in temper are dangerous. political decisions based on 'spirit' are much more so.

geo.
 
There is logic, emotion, "right", "wrong", and every other preconcieved notion out there.

I am posting an ordeal where one chooses between absolute logic and emotion. Stick to the story, make your choice, and explain why.
_

Let us say you and your mother were lost in the frozen barren woods. You had kindling, a lighter, a knife, rocks, and little hope. Your mother was slowly succumbing to the atmosphere and neither of you had food. (Here we go) Would you kill your mother and survie through cannibalism because absolute logic dictates that you must do so to survive? Or would you let her be because you love her and would rather starve?

_

That is all. I'm trying to illuminate why absolute logic cares not for morality or emotions. I am showing why emotions are an important and credible aspect in argumentation. There is no other alternatives in this story. It must be a hard choice with deep reasons.

What are your thoughts and, more importantly, what would you do?

A little Kobayashi Maru, but honestly, I would let her be until she died and THEN eat her.

So logic subject to emotion, because I would not kill her to eat her period, but would accept the necessity of eating her after natural death.

Posted after reading OP, so I haven't read the thread. Fresh look.
 
There are some people who rely far too much on logic, and all too often use it to explain or dismiss things they can't see, hear, smell, or touch, and sometimes use it to determine conclusions about things, that they don't fully understand. Human logic is a wonderful trait we possess, but there are some things logic simply can't explain, that are never the less, very real.

AMAZING! again we agree... sorta... i would replace "logic" with "faith" and it rings absolutely true. Reason, though, explains faith a lot better than faith explains reason... faith condemns reason (especially the christian faith) and yet cannot explain why we have it. reason often condemns faith... but goes a lot further in explaining why we have it.

and so forth,

geo.
 
Looking at the situation logically, I think a lot of people would kill their mother with the intention of eating her, but would justify it in their minds as putting her out of her misery so she wouldn't have to suffer. The interesting thing about emotions is that they can be rationalized so you don't have a conflict between logic and emotion.

That being said, the idea of "absolute" anything in logic is rather absurd. Perhaps an axiom, postulate, or mathematical proof, but certainly not an absolute.

Right, absolute logic is math, not human nature.

BUT, that math is useful to check our emotional butts from time to time, ya know?

(Still not sure of the purpose of the OP, not familiar with Wake, so don't spoil it for me if everybody already knows!)
 
There can certainly be a variety of methods to escape. The logical thing to do is to make a plan. You sit down and say "OK, I'm at point A, I need to be at point B; what are the ways by which I can realistically get from here to there" and then you weight them by probabilities and outcomes. If you put a lot on your survival, you try to take the plan with your best odds. If you put a lot on your mother's survival, you try to tale the plan with her best odds. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

And frankly, with kindling, flint, a knife and rocks it'd be pretty hard to kill me unless there was nothing to eat and nothing to burn.

Hell, if I had my Swiss Army Knife (Victorinox - Hunter Lite), we could have wine in our comfy hut by sundown! (Wine miraculously discovered in abandoned car)

Lifeboat would be a better dilemma for the OP as far as I can tell.
 
Morality is at conflict with emotions more often than with logic.
 
It's not a question of which is greater, it's more about acknowledging the strengths and limitations of both. One is vital to our personal survival, while the other is vital to society and happiness/inner peace.

I have a very high IQ and am more intelligent than most people, and throughout my childhood and well into my adult life, I allowed that intelligence to rule my life and it not only made me miserable and I hated life, it nearly destroyed me on more than one occasion. Because of the rough home life I had as a child, I relied almost exclusively on my intelligence to protect me. I let logic dictate how to act, react, what I should do and say, every minute, of every day... That worked very well to protect me from physical harm, but I can't begin to tell you how many bad or wrong choices I made because I relied so heavily on intellect. Then I figured it out...

I came to understand many years ago, that human beings are made up of two things, or forces, that govern our existence. We are animals as well as spiritual beings, or put another way, body and soul. The animal side is our brain, our intelligence, our logic. It's the selfish part of us that only believes what it can see, and evaluates everything based on how it looks on paper. It's what guards our survival and protects us from physical pain. While the spiritual side is our emotions, our feelings, fears, and where that little voice inside of us comes from, that tells us things that logic simply can't explain. It's the part of us where moral values and our sense of right and wrong come from. It's where our compassion is derived, and what allows us to see the effects of certain actions that logic simple can't fathom. What I've found is, anyone who relies too heavily on one over the other, is someone who will make a lot of bad decisions, be very unhappy in their life, or won't be on this earth very long.

In your example, it comes down to 2 simple choices for me... Feed your body, or feed your soul. I'd rather face death and be at peace, then survive the ordeal and live a long and miserable existence.

ps... what I just wrote has everything to do with my political beliefs.

Great post!

I have heard it said that our empathetic impulses are evolutionary.

That they are a function of us being social animals.

And their mitigation of pure "survival of the fittest" competition is what kept us from being trapped on the savannah as the biggest baddest predators on the scene. Large agressive males, smaller submissive females, enslaved/killed lesser males.

Also that it is the drive behind the various warrior codes centering around the idea that it is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.

And a whole lot of other things humans do that make me proud to be one!:2wave:
 
interesting... my story is much the same, except that it was emotions that dragged my ass through the mire... my lovely intellect is what saves me. in the end though, you see, we came to much the same conclusions, though i see intellect and passion (not spriit... we can identify emotion, there is no reason to believe in spirit).

Though I didn't mention it because I didn't want to get into details, when I was a kid, it was just as much an emotional thing as it was physical, and my intellect is what protected me. The problem was, that about the time I hit junior high school, the threat had been removed from my life, but I continued letting logic and my intellect dictate my existence because I just didn't know any better. It made my early adult life a complete shambles. I hated myself and I hated life in general, until one night by complete accident, I found that other part of me that I had long forgotten existed. Since then, my life has been good. I wake up every day happy to be here, no matter what life throws me.

One more thing, when I say "spirit" I'm not talking about religion or ghosts, even though that's where religious comes from... and although many of our emotions can emanate there, "emotions" isn't the correct way to label it either.

It's that thing inside all of us, that tells us what logic can't. It's where gut feelings come from, and where that little voice that tells us that something isn't right comes from. I call it our "spiritual" side because it answers questions, solves problems and instills realities, that unlike our logical side (or animal side), aren't derived from what we can see, hear or touch.


AMAZING! again we agree... sorta... i would replace "logic" with "faith" and it rings absolutely true.

It can go both ways, that's why I said there needs to be a balance between the two. People need to acknowledge both sides, rather than letting one side or the other dominate.... I was just pointing out that when people rely too much on their logical side (a better term might be "animal" or "intellectual" side), they are going to make a lot of mistakes and a lot of bad decisions, especially when it come to "people" issues.

Reason, though, explains faith a lot better than faith explains reason... faith condemns reason (especially the Christian faith) and yet cannot explain why we have it. reason often condemns faith... but goes a lot further in explaining why we have it.

and so forth,

You used the word "explain" a lot, which is a term that refers to using logic and intellect to base conclusions upon. When it comes to religion, those who don't embrace it and choose to evaluate it exclusively with their brains by applying logic and intellect, can only come to one possible conclusion... That there is no God, therefore religion isn't real and simply doesn't exist.

When it comes to people like myself who also don't embrace religion, we evaluate it from both a logical, as well as spiritual perspective, and most (including myself) come to a completely different conclusion. If you ask me:

Do you believe there is a God?
A: There could be, I don't know.

Is religion real or is it an illusion created in the minds of the weak and foolish?
A: It certainly real to believers, and it may well turn out to be an illusion, but I would not call those people either weak or foolish. Anyone who embraces a religion that teaches it's followers to be better human beings, such as the Judea Christian religion, should be respected by society for their faith, not ridiculed.

Also, I don't think religion condemns logic and reason, any more than logic and reason condemns religion. Again, we are talking balance. The overwhelming number of Christians in the world, don't condemn reason, nor do they condemn non-believers. The ones who do, are the ones who rely too heavily on their spiritual side, and reject their animal side (logic).

Thanks for the replies and the kind words.
 
I wake up every day happy to be here, no matter what life throws me.
well, sir, all smartassedness aside, it is hard to argue the value of that. it think THAT is the natural state of people when things do not obstruct it.
One more thing, when I say "spirit" I'm not talking about religion or ghosts. . . It's where gut feelings come from, ...
again, hard to argue... I am not that way. I sense what you say, but I analyze all those impulses. i do not necessarily look for a rational justification, just a 'value' justification. I mean, who wants to analyze having fallen in love? but, cuidado! these nonrational energies can cause as much hurt as joy in my experience.
It can go both ways, that's why I said there needs to be a balance between the two.
again, no argument
People need to acknowledge both sides, rather than letting one side or the other dominate....
dunno... i cannot disagree for YOU, but for myself, i DO allow reason to lead, passion to push.
I was just pointing out that when people rely too much on their logical side (a better term might be "animal" or "intellectual" side),
well, THIS we DO see differently... we ARE animals... all our sides are "animal sides" from one perspective, but i would think our passions more 'animal' than reason...all animals have passions, few have reason,
When it comes to religion, those who don't embrace it and choose to evaluate it . . .can only come to one possible conclusion... That there is no God, therefore religion isn't real and simply doesn't exist.
yep. but i would say that reasoning is something i can control, something i can CHOOSE to employ. my passions, my 'spirit' if you will is outside my deliberation. I think i would appreciate the 'transcendent' experience as much as any, but it simply never actuates.
I would not call those people either weak or foolish.
not do i.
Anyone who embraces a religion that teaches it's followers to be better human beings, such as the Judea Christian religion, should be respected by society for their faith, not ridiculed.
hmmm... let use revise that a trifle. people who work at being good people, whether religiously or not. i do not see that christianity causes MOST adherent to behave in any particularly 'good' way.... i mean, do you think most of us are truly good people? I do not, yet most are christian.

i WILL allow as to how MY own view of what is good is largely in accord with what Jesus said. Trouble is, i do not see that christianity as a ideology is very jesus-like.
Also, I don't think religion condemns logic and reason, any more than logic and reason condemns religion.
You might wanna spend a little more time with your Bible, brother. Jesus was not, that i can think of, but Jesus is NOT the primary voice in modern christianity... Paul is and he WAS very decidedly anti-intellectual. even in his own time, reason could get in the way of faith and that he would not condone

still, there is great wisdom in there - Ecclesiates is brilliant. I could recommned anyone build a philosophy around that book alone... i did, in large part.

Any comment i might make re: Jesus is likely to sound condescending so i will withhold that.

geo.
 
The Survival is not an “absolute logic”,

The “absolute logic” satisfies all concerned,
Otherwise, This is not “absolute logic”.
But, this is “self service”!!!

You tell a story of two people,
This is your imagination that sees nothing in the circumstance except cannibalism,

When a powerful and a weak sit together, this is the responsibility of the powerful to protect weak!!! This is “absolute logic”!!!

Snake eats own babies in “absolute hunger”,
Pigeon do not eat pigeon in “absolute hunger”,
So, “absolute logic” is different for different minds,

There is a hope when you have wood, knife, rocks, kindling, lighter,
They can survive!!!

You know?
To plan a condition or to deliver a lecture on an imaginary condition is different, and,
To act in a condition is entirely different,
This is ability,

Many experts talk on economy,
But, in a situation they fail to produce results,
They just continue to swim in the recession like ducks,

Have you or Christiana Amanpur or any TV ever asked financial experts about “absolute logic”???

What you call “absolute logic” is a joke and absolutely irrelevant to others.

The point of this thread is a choice between emotions & morality, and logical evolution. Consistently I hear from evolutionists that logic is based on tangibility, that the point of evolutional existence is survival as dictated by Charles Darwin's belief in the survival of the fittest. When I speak of logic, I mean it in an evolutional way where survival and secular self-pleasure are our motivations. Many evolutionists and athiests believe Christians and other religious people are illogical; this makes me wonder. If logic and science are the figurative "gods" to those people, and that we came from animals and that we have instincts like animals, then shouldn't we follow such evolutional logic to the fullest? That, while saying emotions and religion don't matter in debate, we get emotional when one who is more in sync with such primal evolutional theories begins to ponder our existence and purpose..

I want a discussion about which choice you would make. The point of my scenario is that I created it and that there are to be no other plausible choices. In a real-life scenario there may be so, as well as your own fabricated scenario; but not in mine. I would like a deeper discussion on this choice and the reasons beneath doing such.

At what point do we forsake our emotions and morality in exchange for survival, logic, and the survival of the species?
 
Well, I think what that's trying to get at is "are some beliefs/ideas worth dying for". I think the answer for most people is yes.

Some people may very well believe that not killing the person that brought you into this world, is more important than their own survival.

But as people point out, that's only because you introduced the concept of precognition, being certain your mother will die. Typically that's not the case.

Let's assume you are correct, your mother will die in 4 days even if you reasonably find some food/shelter. How do you know a rescue party won't show up tomorrow? You're there licking your fingers after eating your moms and the rescue party looks around and then says "WTF is going on you sick ****!" and then they shoot you out of rage and disgust.

That's logical too you know ;)

Actually, that would be their emotions of rage and disgust. Too often emotions are deemed synonomous with logic, yet consistently the plateau of emotions changes in the grasp of time's embrace.
 
I am not firm on my position, because I too am reasoning with myself on these notions. I haven't studied evolution in depth because I'm religious, but I believe I should in order to back up my positions because I am often deemed illogical because of my religion. You guys are intelligent and experienced; I want to learn and understand these beliefs and why we believe them.
 
There are also posts here and excerpts from all over the internet that they would eat a dead person when in that scenario. They may even kill said person if they were not going to survive; but not if they were family. That is raw emotion gumming up the works. When you know for sure that your loved one won't survive your emotions get in the way.

What would I do? I wouldn't kill my loved one because it's far too painful and abhorrent. But evolution dictates that it's survival of the fittest, and the survival is key; logic blends into evolution perfectly, emotions and morality need not apply... I would die a slow cold death, yet know I could have survived. I want to know why.
 
consistently the plateau of emotions changes in the grasp of time's embrace.

that is a marvelously poetic phrasing... if i could extract some meaning from it... i might steal it.

i do not think that "Many evolutionists and athiests believe Christians and other religious people are illogical". Rather, religion is irrational - not CRAZY, but simply not based on reason. That is no diss... MOST of what we do is NOT based on reason. We are nonrational in most of what we do. how much reason do you employ in choosing what to have for breakfast, which television show to watch?

and it should not be thought that because a decision process is not based in reason that it is nonintellectual. it is still your brain executing the decision. if it does so in a nonlinear fashion.. so what?

that a decision making process is nonrational does not invalidate it - again, consider your confrontation with the bear.

there are areas in life where nonreason trumps reason and those where reason trumps nonreason. when we are debating matters of fact, reason and evidence are king and queen.

what YOU believe is, again, a personal matter. what you believe in common with a community is a matter for you and your community. if there is benefit in your beliefs for others, we would be well advised to listen. but, NOT sharing your beliefs, YOU would be well advised to appreciate that we will apply different criteria in evaluating what you have to offer from your faith. for rationalists (atheists, secularists), you can expect reason to be our primary tool.

Your feelings are not universal - many may feel otherwise and there may be no way of reconciling the differences emotionally. your faith is not universal - others will believe differently and there may be no way to reconcile the differences. facts that can be shown by reason and evidence are not subjective - we can share them in precisely the same way. the same gravity holds us to the earth regardless of what any of us thinks or believes.

yeah?

geo.
 
There is logic, emotion, "right", "wrong", and every other preconcieved notion out there.

I am posting an ordeal where one chooses between absolute logic and emotion. Stick to the story, make your choice, and explain why.
_

Let us say you and your mother were lost in the frozen barren woods. You had kindling, a lighter, a knife, rocks, and little hope. Your mother was slowly succumbing to the atmosphere and neither of you had food. (Here we go) Would you kill your mother and survie through cannibalism because absolute logic dictates that you must do so to survive? Or would you let her be because you love her and would rather starve?

_

That is all. I'm trying to illuminate why absolute logic cares not for morality or emotions. I am showing why emotions are an important and credible aspect in argumentation. There is no other alternatives in this story. It must be a hard choice with deep reasons.

What are your thoughts and, more importantly, what would you do?

You have fire, plenty of water, and I assume insects, berries and other forms of sustaining foods? Do we have clothing, or is it your contention to simply suggest that the situation is dire for both of us, or if one of us ate the other we could come away from the dire situation alive and saved?

I wonder how your scenario plays out in your mind considering our current fiscal mess? Should we kill SS, Medicare, Welfare, Medicaid, Food Stamps? I mean it is the logical choice, right? :)


Tim-
 
You have fire, plenty of water, and I assume insects, berries and other forms of sustaining foods? Do we have clothing, or is it your contention to simply suggest that the situation is dire for both of us, or if one of us ate the other we could come away from the dire situation alive and saved?

I wonder how your scenario plays out in your mind considering our current fiscal mess? Should we kill SS, Medicare, Welfare, Medicaid, Food Stamps? I mean it is the logical choice, right? :)


Tim-

No matches, flint, etc. No fire. (Do I have to play God and detail every single minutae?) No water, insects, berries. You have clothing, a gun, shoes, and little willpower. The situation is, in my eyes, hopeless. After surviving a zombie-ridden icebreaker and crashing onto the the shore of the most north-western point of Alaska, you find yourself alive yet in an even more desperate solution. Now, you could go back to the ship and scavenge, but I am sure Osmund Saddler would find you this time. Since I'm forced to play God in order to pacify certain skeptical users, I may as well be creative.

This has no bearing on politics. Or, do such notions we all equip apply directly to our political decisions?
 
No matches, flint, etc. No fire. (Do I have to play God and detail every single minutae?) No water, insects, berries. You have clothing, a gun, shoes, and little willpower. The situation is, in my eyes, hopeless. After surviving a zombie-ridden icebreaker and crashing onto the the shore of the most north-western point of Alaska, you find yourself alive yet in an even more desperate solution. Now, you could go back to the ship and scavenge, but I am sure Osmund Saddler would find you this time. Since I'm forced to play God in order to pacify certain skeptical users, I may as well be creative.

This has no bearing on politics. Or, do such notions we all equip apply directly to our political decisions?

Well, the point of my little aside, was to illustrate that logic doesn't work this way. You can't set up a moral scenario that isn't realistic, and ask us to assign an opinion of how we would logically deal with it, if it isn't logical to accept the scenario to begin with??? That's the point. The ultimate question of logic here is a question of personal ethics. The answer you decide upon is the correct decision, and both answers are (now wait for it) logical..


Tim-
 
Logic dictates that a person would never find themselves in this 'specific' situation...
Let us say you and your mother were lost in the frozen barren woods. You had kindling, a lighter, a knife, rocks, and little hope.
Had they crashed in a plane, driven in a car, or gotten there by some other means of transportation, they would certainly have more than a lighter, knife and rocks.

Had they been forced to walk there, they could simply have tracked the person or persons who forced them once they left.

Logic dictates that they would not have walked into this situation of their own free will.
 
i do not think that "Many evolutionists and athiests believe Christians and other religious people are illogical". Rather, religion is irrational - not CRAZY, but simply not based on reason.

I would certainly argue that theists of all stripes are illogical, in their religious beliefs. That doesn't necessarily extend to other beliefs and practices they have in their life. As religion is irrational, all practices related to religion are likewise irrational. Unfortunately, lots of people are looking for a single label to slap on people, not realizing that it's a nuanced idea. That's why you see theists pointing to scientists who believe in a god and claiming that somehow disproves that belief in a god is irrational.

It just doesn't work that way.
 
Logic dictates that a person would never find themselves in this 'specific' situation...

True, but this is a thought experiment. You have to imagine you just woke up and were in the situation as described and figure out what you would do. You're right though, if you were in an airplane crash, logic would dictate that you stay close to the plane where the emergency transponder would likely be bringing help, where you'd have shelter and, presumably, you weren't the only passengers and if you had to resort to cannibalism, you could just eat the other, presumably already dead passengers.
 
I would certainly argue that theists of all stripes are illogical, in their religious beliefs.
THAT is begging the question. of course - belief is not logic.
As religion is irrational, all practices related to religion are likewise irrational.
this is a unsustainable equation. the proscription against eating foods "that creep on their belly", against crayfish or fish without scales makes good sense... for a people that live in a region where water is scarce and hygiene is limited - just as the social practice of eating only with the right hand, reserving the left hand for less hygienic activities in similar circumstances such as North Africa, Morocco, makes perfectly good sense - is perfectly logical.

to ascribe the decision to god... THAT makes good sense too. a helluva lot easier to enforce. of course, there are gonna some weaknesses in the message. Yes, catfish have no scales and feed on the bottom so ya gotta be careful with them... avoid them if you cannot be certain of their cleanliness... but trout are scaleless too... and they are not unclean and they are tasty!

religion is not based on reason, but it need not proscribe reason either. most do when reason conflicts with dogma, 'tis true.
lots of people are looking for a single label to slap on people, not realizing that it's a nuanced idea. That's why you see theists pointing to scientists who believe in a god and claiming that somehow disproves that belief in a god is irrational.

It just doesn't work that way.
that i cannot disagree with.

geo.
 
True, but this is a thought experiment. You have to imagine you just woke up and were in the situation as described and figure out what you would do.

i agree. he is not attempting to formulate a procedure for the federal gummint, he is offering a simple binary choice between reason and emotion. to refuse to see it as a valid question because it is not wholly plausible merely demonstrates a limited understanding of reasoning.

Einstein got most of his direction from such thought experiments. how logical is it that one would find oneself in an elevator which he does not know IS an elevator and confuse the effects of the elevator's movements with increases and decreases in 'gravity'? THAT little irrationality led to his General Theory.

geo.
 
i agree. he is not attempting to formulate a procedure for the federal gummint, he is offering a simple binary choice between reason and emotion. to refuse to see it as a valid question because it is not wholly plausible merely demonstrates a limited understanding of reasoning.

Einstein got most of his direction from such thought experiments. how logical is it that one would find oneself in an elevator which he does not know IS an elevator and confuse the effects of the elevator's movements with increases and decreases in 'gravity'? THAT little irrationality led to his General Theory.

geo.

Geo -
he is offering a simple binary choice between reason and emotion

Come on Geo? It's hardly simple, and the details DO matter. He's suggesting that for one to choose reason, one must accept the premise that one's own survival is paramount above all other rationale. Although that may be true.. (Ayn Rand ring a bell? :) ) It is not collectively true, or not always collectively true. It invalidates altruism as a reasonable choice, something I suspect you deny as having any credible weight in the reasoning process. I contend that a reasonable choice cannot be made on matters of the heart without factoring all potential variables, up to, and including emotional realities.

I put forth the same scenario but instead of one's own Mother, perhaps your child would be the one to choose from eating them, or having them eat you? Now what? What is the reasonable choice?


Tim-
 
Geo -

Come on Geo? It's hardly simple, and the details DO matter. He's suggesting that for one to choose reason, one must accept the premise that one's own survival is paramount above all other rationale.
he is and i disputed that premise. you can too.
I put forth the same scenario but instead of one's own Mother, perhaps your child would be the one to choose from eating them, or having them eat you? Now what? What is the reasonable choice?
yes, i agree that he is weighting the argument in an attempt to generate the sort of answer he would most like to receive.... it is a distinctly emotional premise. but... you recognize that. you can restructure the argument (as you suggest) to eliminate the hyper-emotional content and while keeping the essential premise... and argue it.

geo.
 
Back
Top Bottom