Why I, a liberal, disagree with the BML movement

fireflygmf said:

I got the idea from this:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." -MLK

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Yeah, you really ought to read more of what he wrote. He didn't think we should ignore race when it was the locus of so much injustice.

fireflygmf said:

The claim was 0.6% of the black population was in the top 1%. I did the math correct from the numbers I was given. The numbers were later reframed.

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He gave you the article, it described world numbers, you made an assumption, you were not only inaccurate, you were wrong.

It's an emerging super power, but I'd happily stick with America to provide the moral high ground when compared to China.

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Again, I have no idea what this has to do with BLM, further, if we hold some imagined "higher moral ground", we would not still be grappling with systemic racism 155 years after the Civil War.

You're right, I didn't get to the point. In a nutshell, I see the party of reason devolving into chaos, cheap antics and promoting division in an attempt to garner power.The party is one of ideology first, and rationalizing that position after the fact.

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Shifted the discussion from BLM....to "liberals"....to the Democratic party. Let me help you, these protests are NOT done in the name of the party, mainstream Dems have an arms-length relation to them. There are a lot of factions in play, to paint this as some sort of representation of a "Dems" is a mischaracterization. Most "liberals" should discern that.

I had previously assumed this was a right wing phenomenon with religion, but I was wrong. There is no more party of reason in America, and if there is, it is now more likely to be conservatives. It affects me because problems in America spill over into the rest of the world, destabilization in America can become a worldwide problem.

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Bizarre. First, "conservatives" is not a party. The GOP could have been considered a conservative party from Reagan to BushII (Neo-con was more accurate), but it is totally fractured since Trump. What remains is a rightwing base consisting of neofascists and evangelicals. The old GOP centrists have rejected Trump, they call themselves "independents". If you think the current TrumpGOP is the location of the party of reason in America, you have totally removed your veil.

fireflygmf said:

I was recently replying to someone else in another thread that became polluted in racial arguments where none had been brought up initially. While replying, I re-read what I had wrote and found it to be concise enough that I think it summarizes my problems with wokeness in general and BML in particular, (below is paraphrased).

I assume that others like me are tired of racial obsession. Some of us don't need or want to place any emphasis on a person's race as any special qualifier for different treatment, because we see each other as people. Some people we like, because we like how they think and behave, some people we grow tired of because of their antics. Long live MLK! We're all basically the same, why is this so hard to understand?

There is of course the alternative, where we focus primarily on insignificant differences and place enormous importance on that, and start dividing each other on that basis, to demonize the other without regard for who they are beyond their skin colour. I wonder if we can find any examples of the outcomes of this type of thinking in history?

I'd consider carefully what far left activist are trying to achieve and the manner in which they are trying to achieve it. It's for these reasons I reject the BLM movement as a destructive, divisive movement.

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BLM doesn't exist as a movement that cares about black lives. At it's top, confessed by the founders and it's event organizers, it's marxist and it supports rioting and burning and looting. The violence in America under the guise of BLM is turning off even their own party members. It's taken months for the Mayors of Chicago and Portland to come out and call the violence "criminal" and their lack of action has caused destruction in their cities and has encouraged conservatives and law abiding citizens ,(republican, moderate, and democrat" to come out to vote Trump in November.

ultmd said:

My opinion of you is that you don't seem to have much understanding of the issues and perspectives of people of color in the U.S...and that you come to this discussion with a very different set of LIVED, LEARNED experiences. That seems to be confirmed now. The issue now is who, between us, has credibility with respect to the issues raised by the #BLM....and who just THINKS he understands?

But you didn't answer my other questions.

• Do you honestly believe that the protests are about "insignificant differences" and that they "demonize" all white people?
• Have you not been paying attention? If so, what news sources are you relying upon for this conclusion?
• Lastly, what EXACTLY do you believe "the far left activists" are trying to achieve (and how)?

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Credibility has nothing to do with my race. It is only my ability to make reasonable sense of the information given to me that lends any credibility. Be aware that none of my direct family could speak any english when they arrived here. They were darker, being Italian. They settled in a small town where they were berated, chased and sometimes beaten. Called wops. This is my mother's brothers we're talking here (she was spared as I presume she was a young girl at that point). But they suffered such that I can thrive, not so I continue to suffer. I grew up poor, but I don't dwell on what happened, that was someone else in my family as victims, and someone else in my birthplace doing the abusing. I can't relive those lives, and there is no point in revisiting harms done to my family on a daily basis, so I don't. We can all choose our own path and try to make our way to the best of our ability.

Now to your questions.

1) I believe the protests are about a grand ideal, which I fully support, but done some in a manner I find deplorable and with tactics that are indefensible, and I do not support this. The end does not justify the means.
2) I read all manner of news across the spectrum, and try to rely on as much raw data as possible, so as not no bias my opinion (such as statistics released by government agencies)
3) I believe the average protestor truly believes they are marching for the greater good, for the betterment of society and their own community. What I think they are successful in accomplishing, however, is a re-awakening of racial divide, violence, vandalism and hate. I don't believe most people partaking in the movement realize this, but for an outsider looking in, it seems very obvious.

I will acknowledge something that was pointed out to me by Craig234 though: it is possible that I suffer from a bit of isolation from the problem of racism by living in Canada, seemingly removed from the worst of this. It is possible that I have a skewed perception of these problems because I must rely on getting my information second hand, delivered through one agency or another.

fireflygmf said:

Credibility has nothing to do with my race. It is only my ability to make reasonable sense of the information given to me that lends any credibility. Be aware that none of my direct family could speak any english when they arrived here. They were darker, being Italian. They settled in a small town where they were berated, chased and sometimes beaten. Called wops. This is my mother's brothers we're talking here (she was spared as I presume she was a young girl at that point). But they suffered such that I can thrive, not so I continue to suffer. I grew up poor, but I don't dwell on what happened, that was someone else in my family as victims, and someone else in my birthplace doing the abusing. I can't relive those lives, and there is no point in revisiting harms done to my family on a daily basis, so I don't. We can all choose our own path and try to make our way to the best of our ability.

Now to your questions.

1) I believe the protests are about a grand ideal, which I fully support, but done some in a manner I find deplorable and with tactics that are indefensible, and I do not support this. The end does not justify the means.
2) I read all manner of news across the spectrum, and try to rely on as much raw data as possible, so as not no bias my opinion (such as statistics released by government agencies)
3) I believe the average protestor truly believes they are marching for the greater good, for the betterment of society and their own community. What I think they are successful in accomplishing, however, is a re-awakening of racial divide, violence, vandalism and hate. I don't believe most people partaking in the movement realize this, but for an outsider looking in, it seems very obvious.

I will acknowledge something that was pointed out to me by Craig234 though: it is possible that I suffer from a bit of isolation from the problem of racism by living in Canada, seemingly removed from the worst of this. It is possible that I have a skewed perception of these problems because I must rely on getting my information second hand, delivered through one agency or another.

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Really? You as a white Canadian may be ignorant on the struggles facing Black Americans. Say it ain't so.... :unsure13:

fireflygmf said:

What I think they are successful in accomplishing, however, is a re-awakening of racial divide, violence, vandalism and hate.

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If there is one thing you need to correct it is the idea that the racial divide in the US had vanished, was asleep, was not in existence. The divide has existed since before the Constitution was written, it was a part of it, and the changes made in it have not been put into practice. The divide is not expected to be demolished anytime soon, since racism a matter of attitude, a learned behavior. Racism, like a caste system is socially ingrained, pushing back against it does not create it, it was already there. To argue that protest brings out deeply held beliefs, I say good, get it out in the sunlight, lets see who holds the higher ground.

fireflygmf said:

Credibility has nothing to do with my race. It is only my ability to make reasonable sense of the information given to me that lends any credibility.

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Nonsense. If the issue is racism against African-Americans....your race certainly does factor. If the question was, say...."What's it like to be in combat?". would actual combat experience lend more credibility than your "ability to make reasonable sense of the information"? If the question was, say...."What's it like to practice law...or medicine...etc.?", would ACTUAL experience lend more credibility than your perceived "ability to make reasonable sense of information"?

Come on, man. Being white doesn't preclude you from having an opinion about how African-Americans experience racism. But it does mean that your "ability to make reasonable sense of the information" is likely to be less credible than the LIVED, LEARNED experiences of people like me.

Be aware that none of my direct family could speak any english when they arrived here. They were darker, being Italian. They settled in a small town where they were berated, chased and sometimes beaten. Called wops. This is my mother's brothers we're talking here (she was spared as I presume she was a young girl at that point). But they suffered such that I can thrive, not so I continue to suffer. I grew up poor, but I don't dwell on what happened, that was someone else in my family as victims, and someone else in my birthplace doing the abusing. I can't relive those lives, and there is no point in revisiting harms done to my family on a daily basis, so I don't. We can all choose our own path and try to make our way to the best of our ability.

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Sorry, but this is just ridiculous. It's a pretty typical perspective of a white conservative, but it's a reflection of LACK of exposure to the issue you're attempted to "reasonably" evaluate. There is no equivalence between the experiences of free Italian immigrants....and those of my ancestors. None. I think it's clear that

1) I believe the protests are about a grand ideal, which I fully support, but done some in a manner I find deplorable and with tactics that are indefensible, and I do not support this. The end does not justify the means.

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What "tactics"? Why can't you just SAY what you mean. Be specific.

#BLM protesters have not be responsible for virtually ANY of the identified violence, arson and property damage thus far. We KNOW this, for a FACT...because Trump's own FBI and DNI have BOTH stated as much. So again...what "tactics" do you find "deplorable". You seem to be heavy on feelings, but light on FACTS so far, firefly.

2) I read all manner of news across the spectrum, and try to rely on as much raw data as possible, so as not no bias my opinion (such as statistics released by government agencies

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Ok, so...what stats and data do you have that supports your opinions about #BLM tactics being "deplorable". And why EXACTLY has #BLM "devolved" to? For some reason, you're being evasive, rather than just stating your case, and being prepared to back it up.

3) I believe the average protestor truly believes they are marching for the greater good, for the betterment of society and their own community. What I think they are successful in accomplishing, however, is a re-awakening of racial divide, violence, vandalism and hate.

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And you wonder why I question your sources? And, again, when you say "divisive", what you really mean is "upsetting to white people like me", because that's the only time white conservatives seem to be concerned about "divisiveness". We never heard a peep from white conservatives about the Tea Party being "divisive". We haven't heard a peep from them about "divisiveness" during the entire "MAGA" movement. The ONLY time we hear about "divisiveness" is when black people protest or talk about race/racism. So, clearly, this is an emotional, entitled response from white people.

But getting back to your remarks, above...the FACT is that there has been ZERO connection between violence, vandalism and arson...and the so-called "far-left" or "Antifa", etc. ZERO. The FBI and the DNI both say that EVERY single documented incident has traced back to RIGHT NATINALIST extremists who have infiltrated the protests with expressed intent to create violence and rioting that can be blamed on #BLM. That is a FACT. We're talking about WHITE NATIONALIST groups like the Boogaloo movement, Identity Evropa, etc. etc.

How is it that someone like you, who claims to read "all manner of news across the spectrum"....can be so misinformed about the basic FACTS here? It doesn't add up. Unless, of course, you really just focus your attention on RIGHTWING news sources/social media/etc....like most conservatives these days.

fireflygmf said:

I don't believe most people partaking in the movement realize this, but for an outsider looking in, it seems very obvious.

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Your outsider's view is grossly mistaken. Your perspective is that of a standard FoxNews viewer, not that of a well-read, objective "liberal". The questions, then, are: Does that matter to you, at all? And, why did you pretend to be a "liberal", when it's so clear that you were playing a game of semantics?

I will acknowledge something that was pointed out to me by Craig234 though: it is possible that I suffer from a bit of isolation from the problem of racism by living in Canada, seemingly removed from the worst of this. It is possible that I have a skewed perception of these problems because I must rely on getting my information second hand, delivered through one agency or another.

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I've been saying that from the beginning.

But if it's easier to take, coming from Craig234 than from me...I'm fine with that. As long as you understand it.

And here's something else that may be of value to you: When it comes to race and racism, non-whites don't really care much about what white conservatives think. They care about what they actually DO. Racism requires action. Feelings and opinions are not racist. They can be bigoted, but not racist. Actions and behavior can be racist. That's what people care about. Actions.

fireflygmf said:

I was recently replying to someone else in another thread that became polluted in racial arguments where none had been brought up initially. While replying, I re-read what I had wrote and found it to be concise enough that I think it summarizes my problems with wokeness in general and BML in particular, (below is paraphrased).

I assume that others like me are tired of racial obsession. Some of us don't need or want to place any emphasis on a person's race as any special qualifier for different treatment, because we see each other as people. Some people we like, because we like how they think and behave, some people we grow tired of because of their antics. Long live MLK! We're all basically the same, why is this so hard to understand?

There is of course the alternative, where we focus primarily on insignificant differences and place enormous importance on that, and start dividing each other on that basis, to demonize the other without regard for who they are beyond their skin colour. I wonder if we can find any examples of the outcomes of this type of thinking in history?

I'd consider carefully what far left activist are trying to achieve and the manner in which they are trying to achieve it. It's for these reasons I reject the BLM movement as a destructive, divisive movement.

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The police are dealing with the failures of our system. Education, Economic and political. It is stupid and narrow minded to only attack and chastise them when many others have failed well before the police were involved.

maxparrish said:

You can't ignore the BLM trope on race when those discussing police brutality are typically and relentlessly shouting that "Black Lives Matter" and all other narratives must root their concerns in black people (not Asian, not Hispanic (the largest minority), not Muslim, not Christian, not white lives.). When you center race as a dividing line of humane concern, your not concerned about police EXCEPT when it suits your favored race.

Indeed, yesterday I stood in line at my HMO provider for pharmacy service, assaulted with racialist political slogans, among them "Dismantle White Supremacy". Hell, all I wanted was my blood pressure medications, not a political lecture from my provider.

Needless to say, I am looking for a provider that doesn't (by implication) insult white folk.

I am tired of it and so are 10s of millions of others who are getting fed up with being disrespected for being white.

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For the millionth time, it's not ONLY Black Lives Matter, it is Black Lives Matter TOO. If you care about the results, you absolutely can ignore the racial concerns. Successful police reform will save lives from all races. For practical purposes, it literally doesn't matter if the organization pushing it is primarily concerned with black lives. If you want a non-racial movement for police reform to get behind, feel free to start one. Too bad you wasted the "All Lives Matter" slogan protecting the status quo and ensuring police continue to use excessive force for the foreseeable future.

"Dismantle White Supremacy" is not disrespectful to white people in general. White supremacy is a specific political ideology. White supremacists are among the lowest scum of the earth. Considering their relationship with nazism, I would consider them to be traitors to this country's ideals. No decent American should feel disrespected by that.

ultmd said:

The whining begins when you accuse people who disagree with you of attacking your character. No one did that. They simply stated the obvious, i.e. that you are clearly pretending to be something you are not: a liberal. That's not an attack on your character. It's calling "b.s." to the very premise of thread title (i.e. that your opinions should be taken seriously because you are "a liberal"). You presented a false flag, then attempted to play victim about it. That was a weak, contrived complaint (i.e. a "whine").

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Well, you're wrong. I don't know how much more clear cut it can be. Not one person in the first several posts spoke to any aspect of my post and defaulted to character assassination. If you can't see that, there's no point in me trying to explain it.

ultmd said:

Ok, so let's get into it. Virtually everything, above, is misguided.
1. If you believe that protesting AGAINST racism is "inserting racial arguments where there are none"...you simply do not understand what racism is...and you are not a liberal. This is a standard white grievance perspective.
2. WRONG. Opposing racism is NOT "racism". It's the exact opposite, in fact. Just because YOU (and others) feel personally offended and/or aggravated by public opposition to institutional racism, doesn't make those protests "divisive". It is the height to white entitlement that allows you to presume that that which offends YOU, is therefore "divisive" in our society. Again, this is a white grievance argument. And it's counter-factual to the point of be just absurd.
3. This is just nonsense. A pure Strawman. Again, NO ONE has even suggested (much less attested) to this. Who has EVER said that "race is an important qualifier when considering one's value, importance, etc."? No one. Ever. So why hold up this Strawman as if it's a valid argument? This is ANOTHER common white grievance refrain, firefly.

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1) Nope, I mean what I said. Inserting some racial narrative where race has no place is objectively obsession.
2) I still believe that the incessant fixation on unimportant aspects of a person such as race is indicative of a racist mindset, even though that person may claim to be 'on the right side'
3) I accept that I made a strawman of this, maybe out of frustration. Give me your best steelman position of this argument, and I'll promise to argue against that stronger position. I apologize.

ultmd said:

Says whom? You? Again, your predilection for ambiguity, and it's becoming more and more clear why.

Upon what basis do you believe this? #BLM is about opposition to institutional/systemic racism in general, and overt racism and police misconduct in our legal system, in particular. And, honesty, the VERY LAST people on earth to define #BLM...will be aggrieved white conservatives who don't have he first flipping clue about racism.

So again I ask you...WHO exactly is being "divided" by protests AGAINST racism throughout this country? Second request.

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BLM has become a vessel to collect any grievance and justification to lash out against society as a whole, which then seems to devolve into nightly violence. This may be an artifact of what I am presented via my own limited media, but I do try to listen to all sides. It became something that almost anybody can get behind beginning with Ferguson to this mess of violence that erupts often into violence following previous daytime peaceful protest. This is not helping the cause.

As to who is being divided... it's you're entire nation. The entirety of your citizenry. Look around, are you even seeing what I'm seeing?

ultmd said:

And what makes you think it's any different, for black people? This strikes me as the argument of someone who passes judgment from afar, not someone who has any familiarity with the other side of the equation. Do you know many/any black people? It's not a crime to not know, or not have any familiarity with the black community. But, in such a circumstance, it would be mindful for one to understand that.

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I don't think it's any different for black people. When I say everyone, I mean everyone. I don't find it useful to discern along racial lines, in general.

ultmd said:

Enough with the fake victimhood stuff, please. Enough. Is this going to be an honest discussion, or not? And again, you are too easily "disturbed". Your opinions reflect who you are. Why are you so easily threatened? This is a discussion about race and racism. If you don't understand that TALKING about race/racism (as subject matter) is NOT "racist"...you're not prepared to have this discussion.

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Fella, being disturbed is not being made a victim or being offended. I'm not either. It's a revelation of my frustration and worry for the fate of us all in North America if this kind of **** doesn't stop, and soon.

Gimmesometruth said:

He gave you the article, it described world numbers, you made an assumption, you were not only inaccurate, you were wrong.

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Well, the original author of the post admitted he typo-ed a few posts back, so there is that. But think what you want.

Gimmesometruth said:

Again, I have no idea what this has to do with BLM, further, if we hold some imagined "higher moral ground", we would not still be grappling with systemic racism 155 years after the Civil War.

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Me either. You asked me about China as an opposing super power, I answered. You go figure out why you asked.

Gimmesometruth said:

Shifted the discussion from BLM....to "liberals"....to the Democratic party. Let me help you, these protests are NOT done in the name of the party, mainstream Dems have an arms-length relation to them. There are a lot of factions in play, to paint this as some sort of representation of a "Dems" is a mischaracterization. Most "liberals" should discern that.

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You got me there. I stand corrected, BLM is a right wing movement.

Gimmesometruth said:

Bizarre. First, "conservatives" is not a party. The GOP could have been considered a conservative party from Reagan to BushII (Neo-con was more accurate), but it is totally fractured since Trump. What remains is a rightwing base consisting of neofascists and evangelicals. The old GOP centrists have rejected Trump, they call themselves "independents". If you think the current TrumpGOP is the location of the party of reason in America, you have totally removed your veil.

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That's my mistake. In Canada, what you know as republican we call conservative, and it's the actual party name. My bad.

Master Debator said:

Really? You as a white Canadian may be ignorant on the struggles facing Black Americans. Say it ain't so.... :unsure13:

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I'm way darker skinned than most up here, due to my ethnic background. My family is also immigrants who where generally mistreated. I'm the first generation born here. I notice how that morsel has gone unnoticed by the dogpile here. Interesting.

fireflygmf said:

Good response. I agree that police brutality is a problem, root causes are difficult to suss out, but I would not be one to throw out the baby with the bath water. We can keep good things and discard the bad things as we grow and learn.

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Flawed or not, BLM is the only organization that has a chance of fixing this issue. Feel free to criticize specific actions, but don't abandon support for the organization as a whole. If you continue to agree with the people working to discredit the entire movement, you ARE throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Gimmesometruth said:

If there is one thing you need to correct it is the idea that the racial divide in the US had vanished, was asleep, was not in existence. The divide has existed since before the Constitution was written, it was a part of it, and the changes made in it have not been put into practice. The divide is not expected to be demolished anytime soon, since racism a matter of attitude, a learned behavior. Racism, like a caste system is socially ingrained, pushing back against it does not create it, it was already there. To argue that protest brings out deeply held beliefs, I say good, get it out in the sunlight, lets see who holds the higher ground.

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This is actually a perspective that I can respect. I'm not sure I agree with every assertion, but I'll let it soak.

"Black lives matter."

Say it, just say the words. Say them with the understanding that while ALL lives matter, there's a segment of the population which is attempting to call attention to the fact that their lives are NOT MATTERING as much as the lives of everyone else, because they are black.

"Black lives matter" is another way of saying that "black lives matter TOO and we want them to matter as much as any other lives" but that's a clumsy phrase.
The concept of black lives mattering predates the BLM movement by four hundred some years and in that four hundred year span dozens of groups have attempted to fix the imbalance, sometimes with minor wins, sometimes with limited success.
But in the last handful of years, there has arisen an in your face revival of old Jim Crow bigotry, given license by hardcore ultra right folks who support the current administration, with a president who just today said that the choice of a black woman as VP is an insult to white people.

Now you should have less difficulty understanding "Black Lives Matter" and WHY black lives do matter.
Since BLM cannot control every single person doing every single thing you cannot be taken to task for noticing that some people say and do stupid stuff in the name of BLM but if you focus on the simple concept of black lives mattering instead of on individual news items about stupid people saying and doing stupid stuff, that stupid stuff doesn't make black lives matter any less.

If on the other hand you have decided that BLM is a political party, then nothing anyone says will divert your focus from this ad hoc party.
Therefore the concept of black lives mattering will be lost on you.
It doesn't matter to ME if something an individual speaking and acting in the name of BLM is engaged in stupidity because MY focus is on the lives of black people who I know in real life, some of whom are now members of my family.

I don't care if BLM is a party or isn't a party.
But even if you could argue that they are, does that mean that everything a party does is ideal?

See, diverting focus to BLM and their political objectives takes away focus on the issue.
The issue is "do black lives matter or not?"
If they do, then why should I worry about what this or that individual said or did, seeing as how no one I know is saying and doing that stuff?
A Boy Scout leader two counties over got busted as a molester.
Does that mean that the Boy Scout leader down my street is automatically a molester too?

Pretending BLM is a political party or a political stunt is a cheap parlor trick to dehumanize black people and encapsulate them in a box of Trump's making.
If you're attempting to do that you will get called out on it quickly, because most of us aren't as stupid as you think we might be.

I couldn't give two ****s what a handful of Antifa kids did down the street, because for me "antifa" is MY OWN FATHER who took TWO Nazi bullets to the neck in WW2.
See how that works?

fireflygmf said:

I'm way darker skinned than most up here, due to my ethnic background. My family is also immigrants who where generally mistreated. I'm the first generation born here. I notice how that morsel has gone unnoticed by the dogpile here. Interesting.

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And I have large parts of my family that immigrated to Canada from Jamaica, so ****ing what? How does that make you an authority on the racism black people face in America? But the difference between you and us white winger, is that we don't sit here and call it divisive for you to continually bring up how mistreated your family was. Its just irrelevant to this conversation.

shortened for char limit

ultmd said:

Nonsense. If the issue is racism against African-Americans....your race certainly does factor. If the question was, say...."What's it like to be in combat?". would actual combat experience lend more credibility than your "ability to make reasonable sense of the information"? If the question was, say...."What's it like to practice law...or medicine...etc.?", would ACTUAL experience lend more credibility than ... But it does mean that your "ability to make reasonable sense of the information" is likely to be less credible than the LIVED, LEARNED experiences of people like me.

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I'll grant you this point, it has some truth to it. But I don't think it discredits my opinions altogether, either.

ultmd said:

Sorry, but this is just ridiculous. It's a pretty typical perspective of a white conservative, but it's a reflection of LACK of exposure to the issue you're attempted to "reasonably" evaluate. There is no equivalence between the experiences of free Italian immigrants....and those of my ancestors. None. I think it's clear that

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My family fled the fallout after the war. They weren't "free" to do what they wanted at all, my grandfather couldn't even work in his field anymore upon arrival, the best he could do was a paid labourer. You're just doing to me and my history what you claim is done to you, I'm the arbiter of my own LIVED and LEARNED experience. Do you see now the ridiculousness of the position? How it shuts down dialogue? I've made it now that you can't have any opinion on any point I've made... so which rules do you want to play under?

ultmd said:

What "tactics"? Why can't you just SAY what you mean. Be specific.

#BLM protesters have not be responsible for virtually ANY of the identified violence, arson and property damage thus far. We KNOW this, for a FACT...because Trump's own FBI and DNI have BOTH stated as much. So again...what "tactics" do you find "deplorable". You seem to be heavy on feelings, but light on FACTS so far, firefly.

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I reject this entirely. I'm extreme in detailing my exact position, and further clarifying my position if questioned. If I'm vague I do my best to clarify, so drop it. The tactics of societal manipulation, in appealing to people's compassion and desire to do the right thing, gain allies, then proceed to essentially decimate whatever downtown protest site they are at that night. And they leverage the slogan of black lives matter because nobody wants to be against that slogan. It's a game of manipulation, in taking control of the mob, gaining societal backing and running amok, while making local leadership cower. Generally done to cities that are left leaning and willing to help anyway. It's just so plain to see.

ultmd said:

Ok, so...what stats and data do you have that supports your opinions about #BLM tactics being "deplorable". And why EXACTLY has #BLM "devolved" to? For some reason, you're being evasive, rather than just stating your case, and being prepared to back it up.

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My opinion of it being a deplorable tactic doesn't have a statistic attached to it. I don't know if you are aware, but the feds don't keep a count of actions I find deplorable on record. Good grief.

ultmd said:

And you wonder why I question your sources? And, again, when you say "divisive", what you really mean is "upsetting to white people like me", because that's the only time white conservatives seem to be concerned about "divisiveness". ... So, clearly, this is an emotional, entitled response from white people.

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Label me all you want, but I'm liberal.

I'm for gun control, right to choose, gay rights, woman's rights, against racism, free medical, subsidized post secondary education etc etc etc. If one of your own has a problem with this, maybe examine why that may be instead of re-positioning me and writing me off as inconvenient.

ultmd said:

But getting back to your remarks, above...the FACT is that there has been ZERO connection between violence, vandalism and arson...and the so-called "far-left" or "Antifa", etc. ZERO. The FBI and the DNI both say that EVERY single documented incident has traced back to RIGHT NATINALIST extremists who have infiltrated the protests with expressed intent to create violence and rioting that can be blamed on #BLM. That is a FACT. We're talking about WHITE NATIONALIST groups like the Boogaloo movement, Identity Evropa, etc. etc.

How is it that someone like you, who claims to read "all manner of news across the spectrum"....can be so misinformed about the basic FACTS here? It doesn't add up. Unless, of course, you really just focus your attention on RIGHTWING news sources/social media/etc....like most conservatives these days.

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I expect it's because I read all manner of news, and you may prefer you pre-existing narrative with your sources.

Master Debator said:

And I have large parts of my family that immigrated to Canada from Jamaica, so ****ing what? How does that make you an authority on the racism black people face in America? But the difference between you and us white winger, is that we don't sit here and call it divisive for you to continually bring up how mistreated your family was. Its just irrelevant to this conversation.

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No, it's the reality shoved into all of your faces after I was accused, multiple times, of being a "white winger" who can't possibly understand hardship. I can see it makes things uncomfortable for you.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

I couldn't give two ****s what a handful of Antifa kids did down the street, because for me "antifa" is MY OWN FATHER who took TWO Nazi bullets to the neck in WW2.
See how that works?

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Yes, exactly this. Do you see how this works? Do you see how this just shuts down dialogue entirely? That's why I asked if this are the rules we play by to make a point now (read several posts up), I have to flash my victim cred to have an opinion? Such childish nonsense.

fireflygmf said:

No, it's the reality shoved into all of your faces after I was accused, multiple times, of being a "white winger" who can't possibly understand hardship. I can see it makes things uncomfortable for you.

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Not at all. No one is made uncomfortable by your second rate grift. :shrug:

Elmo said:

For the millionth time, it's not ONLY Black Lives Matter, it is Black Lives Matter TOO. If you care about the results, you absolutely can ignore the racial concerns. Successful police reform will save lives from all races. For practical purposes, it literally doesn't matter if the organization pushing it is primarily concerned with black lives. If you want a non-racial movement for police reform to get behind, feel free to start one. Too bad you wasted the "All Lives Matter" slogan protecting the status quo and ensuring police continue to use excessive force for the foreseeable future.

"Dismantle White Supremacy" is not disrespectful to white people in general. White supremacy is a specific political ideology. White supremacists are among the lowest scum of the earth. Considering their relationship with nazism, I would consider them to be traitors to this country's ideals. No decent American should feel disrespected by that.

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You've got one of the worst cases of delirium I seen in the last year of posting. Need I tell you that everyone has heard of BLM none have heard of your delusional BLMT. Don't you know why? Because this isn't about black folk 'mattering too' in a broad issue of police brutality, it's BECAUSE this has never been about a concern for police brutality for ALL - its been about one race only, a race that deeply resents that their criminals get shot in disproportionate rates because they are disproportionally employed in violent crime.

YOU may want change the narrative but your a frustrated and lone voice in the wilderness of a race and racialist based movement, your trying to push a silver lining that the dark cloud makers don't support...if it ain't about ONE race bro, it ain't going to get the support of the black grievance mongers and white liberals.

So BLM means police defunding. It means pushing a false narrative of blacks being a targeted in police murders. It means constantly feeding racial resentment and victimization morality as a never ending race conflict.

And yes, part of that is too scream, in varying levels of volume, for the last 60 years that there is some imaginary white supremacist movement that controls America - no more or less insulting than the belief that the "Jews" plot "Jewish supremacy" and must be felt with.

So hell yes its insulting because it is an intended insult, they know it, I know it. And when the day comes it generates growing racism as a backlash to this BS, I am sure you'll be first in line to scream "see there they are".

BLM and all the affiliated antifa movements have not so hidden agenda's, and its not a redo of the vintage Coca-Cola commercial of making the world sing in harmony.

pjohns said:

Well, the alternative to that is to concentrate upon race.

Do you not find that...well, divisive?

If not, why not?

And do you consider divisiveness to be preferable to unity?

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It's like saying that you shouldn't concentrate on the houses that are on fire, but instead enjoy the rest of the city...

Again, convenient.

Master Debator said:

Not at all. No one is made uncomfortable by your second rate grift. :shrug:

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I agree, it's just easier to label me. Just forget this ever happened.

Drowning Man said:

It's like saying that you shouldn't concentrate on the houses that are on fire, but instead enjoy the rest of the city...

Again, convenient.

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Well, just the opposite in fact. If you look at the town through the lens of 'unity', you should notice and be concerned with any house on fire... through the lens of 'racial concern' you won't notice or care about houses burning that aren't you or yours. Unity, by definition, makes us one.