No mask if social distancing

Lursa said:

I gave some pretty clear examples where you cant 'depend on' social distancing. Where you cant control other people, or diminished spaces or lines or kids or...a million other things. :roll:

And yet, according to you, YOU should get it because of course the WHO thought of this already :doh

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Well yea, if The Who meant wear a mask unless social distancing is 100% guaranteed , they would have just said wear a mask always, period in a public setting. Because there are no guarantees in life.

But if social distsncing can reasonably be done, then No mas is recommended. And yes, social distancing can, and is reasonably being done in most retail establishments.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Which group is wearing masks or doesn't that count because of your CT issues?
Have you licked any handrails to prove that masks are a hoax?

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Neither group is wearing ****ing masks! What channel have you been watching?

Lursa said:

Yeah...in your car, in a park, when there are no people in close vicinity...mask isnt necessary.

How are you not embarrassed not to get this, so many months in?

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How are you not embarrassed Tom claim social distancing isn’t reasonably being done in places like Walmart?

Checkerboard Strangler said:

When will you be condemning the 250 thousand bikers at Sturgis?
The head of Bikers for Trump seems to think the COVID pandemic is a leftist plot.



Do you agree with him?

If so, why aren't you cheering him on and if not, why aren't you condemning him?
PS: The head of the Minneapolis Police union is also a member of Bikers for Trump.

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Dude......I have a great idea! Gather all your leftist protesters and head there and confront them. Any reason lefties would not?

AlphaOmega said:

Lets debate why a crowd of 50 at a home is different than a crowd of 50 rioters. Tell us what science makes leftist crowd not contagious.

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Do they have to be rioters or are you willing to accept that many or most are peaceful protesters?
First, they're OUTSIDE, not INSIDE, yes?

Are the protesters wearing masks, like these people?



Or are they mask refuseniks, like most of the people in this picture?



If you're inside a closed space, aerosols will find you more easily than they would outside, do you agree?
Are the INDOOR people wearing masks or not?

See, it helps if you define your virus scenarios outside of politics because SARS-Cov-2 doesn't care about your politics.
And by the way, have you condemned the 250 thousand bikers yet?

Simpletruther said:

We could always do more. Some draw the line at different points.

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From a reasoning standpoint, the middle path is often best. We do not need hazmat suites yet to walk in public. Of course the middle is relative to the severity of the infection.

AlphaOmega said:

Dude......I have a great idea! Gather all your leftist protesters and head there and confront them. Any reason lefties would not?

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Why are we supposed to confront people at the Sturgis rally?
It's a biker rally, and I am guessing you've never been whereas I HAVE been, twice.

It's about beer, bitches and bikes, did you not know that?
At least that's what it was about in the 80's both times I went there, so tell us all what's to confront aside from their unmasked stupidity and the fact that their top guy thinks COVID is a hoax?

Guess who WILL be confronting them soon enough....ER nurses who will have to put their lives on the line when they come down with a bad case of this virus.

So please, tell me what we're supposed to be protesting?
If you can't come up with anything specific then we can agree that you are pretty much trolling the thread.

Simpletruther said:

Well yea, if The Who meant wear a mask unless social distancing is 100% guaranteed , they would have just said wear a mask always, period in a public setting. Because there are no guarantees in life.

But if social distsncing can reasonably be done, then No mas is recommended. And yes, social distancing can, and is reasonably being done in most retail establishments.

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As long as everyone's doing it, then yes.
But everyone has to cooperate because YOUR mask protects ME and MY mask protects YOU.
That's how it works.

Simpletruther said:

Only thst isn’t what it says for the general public, as I have directly quoted several times. It clearly says, for the general public in situations where social distancing is possible, no mask is recommended.


I haven’t a single time denied that health care workers should wear masks.

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OKaaaaaaaay, "YOU" picked an article targeted for Health Care Professionals, quote from your article anything about the "general public".

Nobody's arguing when your out in the wide open, in your home or private office you don't need to wear a mask ... all the time. But whenever you're going to be in proximity of people, the articles I've quoted recomend wearing a mask AND distancing as best as possible.

in a study of mandatory mask policies in 15 states and washington, d.c., researchers found that infection rates were lower compared to states that didn't mandate masks, with as many as 450,000 people spared covid-19 infections. In countries where wearing masks was policy or a cultural norm, deaths were lower compared to countries with neither.

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Irwin Corey said:

just do it!

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BUT what that article doesn't mention is what are the other variables associated with the mask mandates in those countries and/or locations which ALSO includes either mandatory and/or community and voluntary BETTER PRACTICES which are helping to slow the spread? For example: they mandate masks at all times in public, AND they do temperature checks, AND they have strict contact tracing measures in place, and they require strict and POLICE/government followup to assure that anyone who has been infected remains isolated at home--- AND use of GPS tracking-- AND severe penalties for rule violators.

ALL of the these are variables not mentioned which I would argued do more than just a mask mandate. Because here in the USA all that is being done is forcing people to wear masks, but no mention of proper mask wearing, or proper and NECESSARY social distancing AND all of the other important measures which other countries like South Korea, Singapore, and even China are doing.

Masks alone don't do much especially if people believe they alone are the answer.

So NO, I do not wear a mask where it doesn't make any difference anyway. And besides, I don't have covid, so if I wear a mask I wear the kind that PROTECTS ME, which has a vent anyway. I don't need to worry about protecting you, because I have taken responsibility for ME first--- so what would a paper mask do for you other than make you "feel good"---which means nothing anyway. Because in this stupid country right now all that people seem to care about is virtue signaling about wearing a mask; there is no requirement to wear it properly, or be of the type that makes a difference anyway. And add to that the fact that people now believe it okay to go out and public with a mask even after KNOWING they have symptoms. How dumb is that? STAY HOME if you aren't sure you aren't infected. Meanwhile YOUR mask means NOTHING to me; I'm avoiding all you rubes anyway.

Court Jester said:

BUT what that article doesn't mention is what are the other variables associated with the mask mandates in those countries and/or locations which ALSO includes either mandatory and/or community and voluntary BETTER PRACTICES which are helping to slow the spread? For example: they mandate masks at all times in public, AND they do temperature checks, AND they have strict contact tracing measures in place, and they require strict and POLICE/government followup to assure that anyone who has been infected remains isolated at home--- AND use of GPS tracking-- AND severe penalties for rule violators.

ALL of the these are variables not mentioned which I would argued do more than just a mask mandate. Because here in the USA all that is being done is forcing people to wear masks, but no mention of proper mask wearing, or proper and NECESSARY social distancing AND all of the other important measures which other countries like South Korea, Singapore, and even China are doing.

Masks alone don't do much especially if people believe they alone are the answer.

So NO, I do not wear a mask where it doesn't make any difference anyway. And besides, I don't have covid, so if I wear a mask I wear the kind that PROTECTS ME, which has a vent anyway. I don't need to worry about protecting you, because I have taken responsibility for ME first--- so what would a paper mask do for you other than make you "feel good"---which means nothing anyway. Because in this stupid country right now all that people seem to care about is virtue signaling about wearing a mask; there is no requirement to wear it properly, or be of the type that makes a difference anyway. And add to that the fact that people now believe it okay to go out and public with a mask even after KNOWING they have symptoms. How dumb is that? STAY HOME if you aren't sure you aren't infected. Meanwhile YOUR mask means NOTHING to me; I'm avoiding all you rubes anyway.

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Well, t's always been said that the mask YOU wear protects OTHERS, the mask they wear protects YOU. If someone, or you, is contagious and sneezes, breaths, talks their mask contains the virus to within "SOCIAL DISTANCING" distance. I don't think anyone can be 100% sure they aren't infected, but if you are suspicious in the least ... YES stay the **** home. Other wise wear a mask and social distance when out and about.

THAT is why it's important for EVERYONE to wear a mask AND social distance. IF we, AmeriCANs, would do those two things we could get this virus under controll.

But the Orange Menace doesn't wear one so **** it masks are just part of the "HOAX"

Irwin Corey said:

Well, t's always been said that the mask YOU wear protects OTHERS, the mask they wear protects YOU. If someone, or you, is contagious and sneezes, breaths, talks their mask contains the virus to within "SOCIAL DISTANCING" distance. I don't think anyone can be 100% sure they aren't infected, but if you are suspicious in the least ... YES stay the **** home. Other wise wear a mask and social distance when out and about.

THAT is why it's important for EVERYONE to wear a mask AND social distance. IF we, AmeriCANs, would do those two things we could get this virus under controll.

But the Orange Menace doesn't wear one so **** it masks are just part of the "HOAX"

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It will never be controlled in this country aside from a vaccine because there are too many stupid people now in our culture. Urban cities full of illegal aliens and welfare morons, liberal cities full of entitled "everyone wins a trophy types" wanting to burn down traditions and defund the police---and just the general low grade prevailing culture here that is about 180 degrees different than the culture used to be right after WW2 when America was in fact GREAT!

Can't blame that on "the orange man", he has been one of the few to point out the reality of the world the progressive American hating left has created here; he has been the one trying to make this country great again.

Court Jester said:

It will never be controlled in this country aside from a vaccine because there are too many stupid people now in our culture. Urban cities full of illegal aliens and welfare morons, liberal cities full of entitled "everyone wins a trophy types" wanting to burn down traditions and defund the police---and just the general low grade prevailing culture here that is about 180 degrees different than the culture used to be right after WW2 when America was in fact GREAT!

Can't blame that on "the orange man", he has been one of the few to point out the reality of the world the progressive American hating left has created here; he has been the one trying to make this country great again.

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Sorry I don't share your low opinion of my countrymen, BUT they are led by the dumbest SOB ever to occupy the White House. People aren't that much different that they were after War 2, the big difference is they were US the U.S., not the left or right. "The Orange Man" is the reason the virus is so out of controll, his lack of leadership and pre-oucupation on keeping his job prevents him from doing his job; not that he knows how even if he would try.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

As long as everyone's doing it, then yes.
But everyone has to cooperate because YOUR mask protects ME and MY mask protects YOU.
That's how it works.

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But again, if we are social distancing, then no need for a mask according to who.

Irwin Corey said:

OKaaaaaaaay, "YOU" picked an article targeted for Health Care Professionals, quote from your article anything about the "general public".

Nobody's arguing when your out in the wide open, in your home or private office you don't need to wear a mask ... all the time. But whenever you're going to be in proximity of people, the articles I've quoted recomend wearing a mask AND distancing as best as possible.

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Did you read the quote in the OP? It’s talking about the general public.


This was from the link in the other thread, which does cover the general public, I was thinking of that.

https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1279750/retrieve

It’s on page 6


Advice to decision makers on the use of masks for the
general public
Many countries have recommended the use of fabric masks/face coverings for the general public. At the present time, the widespread use of masks by healthy people in the community setting is not yet supported by high quality scientific evidence and there are potential benefits and harms to consider (see below).
However, taking into account the available studies evaluating pre- and asymptomatic transmission, a growing compendium of observational evidence on the use of masks by the general public in several countries, individual values and preferences, as well as the difficulty of physical distancing in many contexts, WHO has updated its guidance to advise that to prevent COVID-19 transmission effectively in areas of community transmission, governments should encourage the general public to wear masks in specific situations and settings as part of a comprehensive approach to suppress SARS-CoV-2 transmission (Table 2).


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Irwin Corey said:

OKaaaaaaaay, "YOU" picked an article targeted for Health Care Professionals, quote from your article anything about the "general public".

Nobody's arguing when your out in the wide open, in your home or private office you don't need to wear a mask ... all the time. But whenever you're going to be in proximity of people, the articles I've quoted recomend wearing a mask AND distancing as best as possible.

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Also, to follow up, here is one of the bullet points near the end on how to stop the spread:

At all times, practice frequent hand hygiene, physical distancing from others when possible, and respiratory etiquette; avoid crowded places, close-contact settings and confined and enclosed spaces with poor ventilation; wear fabric masks when in closed, overcrowded spaces to protect others; and ensure good environmental ventilation in all closed settings and appropriate environmental cleaning and disinfection.



Notice the masks are recommended for “closed overcrowded spaces”.

No,we don’t have to wear masks if social distancing is happening, which would include most retail situations.

Merely Politics said:

From a reasoning standpoint, the middle path is often best. We do not need hazmat suites yet to walk in public. Of course the middle is relative to the severity of the infection.

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And severity is subjective.

Simpletruther said:

Again for all the masks Nazis. One more quote from a different World Health Organization link:

Given that infected people without symptoms can transmit the virus, it is also prudent to encourage the use of fabric face masks in public places where there is community transmission[1] and where other prevention measures, such as physical distancing, are not possible.



Notice the “and” there. Yes folks, if social distance is possible, then there is no recommendation for masks.

You guys are acting crazy over something the leading experts are not even recommending.

Again, I have no problem with masks wearers, of those who think itâ€[emoji769]s a wise precaution, that is a reasonable position. But to act like non masks wearers are evil and killing people, in the face of this science, is irrational to say the least.

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2: implications for infection prevention precautions

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Notice the “and” there. Yes folks, if social distance is possible, then there is no recommendation for masks.

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But that is inductive reasoning butt backwards. You’ve committed two reasoning errors. You’ve confused sufficient conditions for some conduct as necessary conditions for the conduct. The CDC is stating what conditions are sufficient to advise use of a mask. You treat those conditions as necessary such that if those conditions are lacking, then there’s no need for masks. However, CDC isn’t announcing conditions which are necessary to use a mask but instead they are focusing upon conditions sufficient to use a mask.

The CDC is stating under what circumstances use of masks is encouraged, (if X is present (community spread and no social distancing, then Y (use masks), and that is not the same as saying if not X (-X social distancing is practiced, then -Y (no masks).

It is a simple rule of logic, the consequent cannot logically be negated by negating the antecedent, yet this is exactly what you’ve done. If X, then Y. -X, therefore, -Y. (if X conditions, then mask. If those conditions aren’t present, then no mask.) That is the flaw of Denying the Antecedent.

Simply, the CDC stating what conditions trigger when to use a mask, and that is not the same as saying if those conditions are absent, then masks are not required. Why? Because there may be circumstances in which mask use may be proper even if social distancing is possible or practiced. The CDC statement isn’t stating for all specific circumstances or contexts where social distancing can be followed, then masks aren’t encouraged.

Rather, the CDC is addressing two and only two specific conditions when masks should be used, and isn’t suggesting that is true for other contexts.


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Simpletruther said:

But again, if we are social distancing, then no need for a mask according to who.

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Manipulator of facts keeps manipulating.

Simpletruther said:

No it doesn’t, here is a direct quote from the OP link.

Use fabric masks in specific situations, for example, in public places where there is community transmission and where other prevention measures, such as physical distancing, are not possible;

Sorry that doesn't say universal mask wearing. You are welcome to post a quote you think says that.

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Reread what you have said. “Specific situations” is plural, as in “situations” meaning, more than one. Then an “example” is given, a singular example of a singular situation when masks are encouraged. That doesn’t suggest it is the ONLY situation when masks are encouraged and leaves open the possibility masks should be used in some situation where social distancing can be practiced but because of some feature or condition, masks are recommended anyway.

You treat a specific situation as the only situation for masks, but that isn’t what was said. What was said is X situation is sufficient for masks, and not that of X is missing, then so should use of masks.


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Simpletruther said:

Did you read the quote in the OP? It’s talking about the general public.


This was from the link in the other thread, which does cover the general public, I was thinking of that.

https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1279750/retrieve

It’s on page 6


Advice to decision makers on the use of masks for the
general public
Many countries have recommended the use of fabric masks/face coverings for the general public. At the present time, the widespread use of masks by healthy people in the community setting is not yet supported by high quality scientific evidence and there are potential benefits and harms to consider (see below).
However, taking into account the available studies evaluating pre- and asymptomatic transmission, a growing compendium of observational evidence on the use of masks by the general public in several countries, individual values and preferences, as well as the difficulty of physical distancing in many contexts, WHO has updated its guidance to advise that to prevent COVID-19 transmission effectively in areas of community transmission, governments should encourage the general public to wear masks in specific situations and settings as part of a comprehensive approach to suppress SARS-CoV-2 transmission (Table 2).


0

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That's a real good paper, I'm glad you posted it. "I think" you're trying to make it prove a point "you" are trying to make and it really doesn't or at least the purpose of the paper doesn't match your purpose. For instance Table 2 in the secotion on "Guidance on the use of masks for the general public", page 7, recomends wearing a mask in every "situation/setting". The WHO seems less concerned, in the general public section, about scientific evidence as it affects whether to mask or not but more in the proper education of their use; how to put it on, take it off, change it for a new one and disposal. Since their recomendations are for World Wide distribution they seem reluctant to make firm recomendations.

The advice of our own experts, since masks have become widely avaiable, has consistantly been wash your hands frequently, avoid touching your mouth and eyes, maintain 6' between you and others when out in public AND wear a mask. What "I" learned from your article was, that's not enough, we need to be better educated on the use of masks because their misuse can cause infection too. I think the more rigorus AmeriCAN approach would be a good way to go IF our leadership would recomend it universally, educate our public on the progam and proper mask usage and set a coresponding example; which they have NOT. BUT! If they would I think the economy would be more normal, and their would be fewer infections and deaths.

Simpletruther said:

Also, to follow up, here is one of the bullet points near the end on how to stop the spread:

At all times, practice frequent hand hygiene, physical distancing from others when possible, and respiratory etiquette; avoid crowded places, close-contact settings and confined and enclosed spaces with poor ventilation; wear fabric masks when in closed, overcrowded spaces to protect others; and ensure good environmental ventilation in all closed settings and appropriate environmental cleaning and disinfection.



Notice the masks are recommended for “closed overcrowded spaces”.

No,we don’t have to wear masks if social distancing is happening, which would include most retail situations.

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Actually the WHO report section on "Guidance on the use of masks for the general public", Table 2 - page 7 recomends wearing a mask in all "Situations and settings".

Simpletruther said:

Well yea, if The Who meant wear a mask unless social distancing is 100% guaranteed , they would have just said wear a mask always, period in a public setting. Because there are no guarantees in life.

But if social distsncing can reasonably be done, then No mas is recommended. And yes, social distancing can, and is reasonably being done in most retail establishments.

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That's pretty much what they said...I guess if it wasnt black and white enough for you then they just gave the general public way too much credit for common sense.

And since you havent countered my examples, you sure havent proven that SD can be done in most retail establishments.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

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Simpletruther said:

How are you not embarrassed Tom claim social distancing isn’t reasonably being done in places like Walmart?

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Who is Tom? :roll:

Because (this is embarrassing but they have great ethnic food selections) I have been in Walmart and had kids all over me and people going the wrong way down aisles and not keeping their distance in lines or in aisles.


Now how stupid do you feel? To be continually shown to be wrong over and over?

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

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Merely Politics said:

From a reasoning standpoint, the middle path is often best. We do not need hazmat suites yet to walk in public. Of course the middle is relative to the severity of the infection.

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And the environment you are placed in.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

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