Should we stop erecting statues of men?

This is a monument to Mao Zedong in China. When I see something like this, I can't help but feel like it's a worship of men. And it's impossible to worship a man without ignoring his human failing.

Yes, Mao was the founder of modern China. He can be viewed as a hero who led China to liberation from European imperialism. But he was also responsible for millions of deaths and unimaginable cruelty.

Do we need statues and monuments? Is any man worthy of a monument?

SonOfDaedalus said:

Do we need statues and monuments? Is any man worthy of a monument?

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That statue is obnoxious as hell and destructive to the natural world. Looks like they took down an entire mountain for that ****...

There is really nothing like that anywhere else... so statues to men or women are fine... just not obnoxious ones.

I would say take some down and not do any more though.

SonOfDaedalus said:

This is a monument to Mao Zedong in China. When I see something like this, I can't help but feel like it's a worship of men. And it's impossible to worship a man without ignoring his human failing.

Yes, Mao was the founder of modern China. He can be viewed as a hero who led China to liberation from European imperialism. But he was also responsible for millions of deaths and unimaginable cruelty.

Do we need statues and monuments? Is any man worthy of a monument?

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Statues and monuments aren't necessarily about the individual they depict, but about the communities they represent and the ideals they hold which mean they have come to believe that specific person is worth remembering for their achievements and contributions to society. Mao Zedong represents the Chinese Communist Party, and you'll find all those Lenin statues in the former U.S.S.R and Eastern Europe basically represent the reach of Soviet/Russian Communism.

Where the west has gone seriously wrong is that we have come to see things only in black-and-white terms. We see moral imperfections everywhere and we can't handle complexity or nuance. We are not able to forgive or forget, so we rip down statues in the hope that we might sterilise our historical wounds. You could well argue it's a sign of a moral crisis in America- a kind of pathological self-loathing that we cannot believe in ourselves and cannot deal with the fact that each of us is capable of good and evil. When we try to reduce everything down to a test of moral purity- we all fail because no-one is without flaws and no-one is without vulnerabilities.

So it is possible that pulling down statues is not motivated by the desire to understand the past, but a deep fear of it. It is perhaps the desire to cleanse ourselves and our society of impurities because we sense a hostile and alien presence among us. Our statues have become our ghosts and our memories haunt us as if we are prisoners, when really a free people should be masters of their own destiny.

We need heroes and we need symbols to bind us together as a community. Hence we need monuments and statues that represent something worth striving for.

Wow, they even put that mole on his chin. I wonder how big that thing is. Oh well, at least there ain't gonna be a bunch of goofs tying it to a pickup truck and pulling it down.:lol:

SonOfDaedalus said:

This is a monument to Mao Zedong in China. When I see something like this, I can't help but feel like it's a worship of men. And it's impossible to worship a man without ignoring his human failing.

Yes, Mao was the founder of modern China. He can be viewed as a hero who led China to liberation from European imperialism. But he was also responsible for millions of deaths and unimaginable cruelty.

Do we need statues and monuments? Is any man worthy of a monument?

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I'm against statues dedicated to men that don't mean anything to everyone, only to a very specific portion of people. Statues that represent the genius of men like Rodin, Michelangelo and Bernini are masterpieces for everyone to appreciate. But statues of men like Lenin or Stalin or those Confederate generals in the US are not appreciated for anything other than oppression or slavery. Throw them all in a big park or enclosed museum.

Bodhisattva said:

That statue is obnoxious as hell and destructive to the natural world. Looks like they took down an entire mountain for that ****...

There is really nothing like that anywhere else... so statues to men or women are fine... just not obnoxious ones.

I would say take some down and not do any more though.

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*sideways look at Mt. Rushmore*

Kyle Phoenix said:

...We need heroes and we need symbols to bind us together as a community. Hence we need monuments and statues that represent something worth striving for.

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HumblePi said:

I'm against statues dedicated to men that don't mean anything to everyone, only to a very specific portion of people. Statues that represent the genius of men like Rodin, Michelangelo and Bernini are masterpieces for everyone to appreciate. But statues of men like Lenin or Stalin or those Confederate generals in the US are not appreciated for anything other than oppression or slavery. Throw them all in a big park or enclosed museum.

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I agree, statutes that bring all Americans together are great symbols. I don't want to let this threat devolve into another civil war debate, but that excludes 'heroes' who took up arms against America, foreign or domestic. They should be in a park or museum. I think monuments might be a little over the top though.

Btw, where are our current Rodin's, Michelangelo's and Bernini's? Do they exist these days? Will ever see the likes of them again, or is it just that our current artists and sculptors haven't been, 'discovered' yet?

SonOfDaedalus said:

This is a monument to Mao Zedong in China. When I see something like this, I can't help but feel like it's a worship of men. And it's impossible to worship a man without ignoring his human failing.

Yes, Mao was the founder of modern China. He can be viewed as a hero who led China to liberation from European imperialism. But he was also responsible for millions of deaths and unimaginable cruelty.

Do we need statues and monuments? Is any man worthy of a monument?

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I hear they are putting Gen. Sherman’s statue back up because someone said he was gay.

SonOfDaedalus said:

This is a monument to Mao Zedong in China. When I see something like this, I can't help but feel like it's a worship of men. And it's impossible to worship a man without ignoring his human failing.

Yes, Mao was the founder of modern China. He can be viewed as a hero who led China to liberation from European imperialism. But he was also responsible for millions of deaths and unimaginable cruelty.

Do we need statues and monuments? Is any man worthy of a monument?

Click to expand...

All societies have heroes. The moral qualities of a dead man do not matter, only what his legacy means to the people.

Statues aren't the problem. If America were truly egalitarian in practice as well as in theory, then all of these statues of traitors, slave owners, and racists that have recently been destroyed would likely still be standing as works of art and reminders of our dramatic and colorful past, likely along with a large host of other statues of great men, women, and other gender identities of different races, creeds, and sexual orientations who did great things for this country and also had their own serious human flaws.

The problem is the widespread racism still present in 2020 American culture that the younger generation has had enough of. The statues are merely the symbolic focus of their rage. I can think of a lot worse places they could be focusing it.

SonOfDaedalus said:

This is a monument to Mao Zedong in China. When I see something like this, I can't help but feel like it's a worship of men. And it's impossible to worship a man without ignoring his human failing.

Yes, Mao was the founder of modern China. He can be viewed as a hero who led China to liberation from European imperialism. But he was also responsible for millions of deaths and unimaginable cruelty.

Do we need statues and monuments? Is any man worthy of a monument?

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Yes. Humans are flawed. Hero worship serves no one.

Make monuments to causes or events....but not people

HumblePi said:

I'm against statues dedicated to men that don't mean anything to everyone, only to a very specific portion of people. Statues that represent the genius of men like Rodin, Michelangelo and Bernini are masterpieces for everyone to appreciate. But statues of men like Lenin or Stalin or those Confederate generals in the US are not appreciated for anything other than oppression or slavery. Throw them all in a big park or enclosed museum.

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One thousand likes

SoCal said:

I agree, statutes that bring all Americans together are great symbols. I don't want to let this threat devolve into another civil war debate, but that excludes 'heroes' who took up arms against America, foreign or domestic. They should be in a park or museum. I think monuments might be a little over the top though.

Btw, where are our current Rodin's, Michelangelo's and Bernini's? Do they exist these days? Will ever see the likes of them again, or is it just that our current artists and sculptors haven't been, 'discovered' yet?

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we just don't have that talent I guess

AmNat said:

All societies have heroes. The moral qualities of a dead man do not matter, only what his legacy means to the people.

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Often to create these heroes you have to distort the truth. We were lied to about our heroes just as the Chinese people were lied to about theirs. Today we all know the lies and the statues become monuments to lies.

Columbus was a lie just as Mao was a lie.

Kyle Phoenix said:

We see moral imperfections everywhere and we can't handle complexity or nuance. We are not able to forgive or forget, so we rip down statues in the hope that we might sterilise our historical wounds.

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The statues were erected because we attempted to erase complexity and nuance. That's how heroes are created. Nobody idolizes a mere mortal full of complexity and nuance.

Once you accept the truth--the complexity and nuance you mention--there is no desire to erect a statue. Statues are often a form of propaganda.

Lenin's statue, Saddam Hussein's statue, Columbus' statue are all forms of propaganda.

vegas giants said:

Yes. Humans are flawed. Hero worship serves no one.

Make monuments to causes or events....but not people

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I totally agree with this. Monuments to those who fought on D-day or those who died in Vietnam will last forever.

Deuce said:

*sideways look at Mt. Rushmore*

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I already said in this thread that they should be changed to people like MLK, Harriet Tubman, Albert Einstein and Steven Spielberg.

SonOfDaedalus said:

Often to create these heroes you have to distort the truth. We were lied to about our heroes just as the Chinese people were lied to about theirs. Today we all know the lies and the statues become monuments to lies.

Columbus was a lie just as Mao was a lie.

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We don't create heroes. They create themselves. The individuals who have had a larger than life influence on a people's development just are part of its history. It does not choose these men.

AmNat said:

We don't create heroes. They create themselves. The individuals who have had a larger than life influence on a people's development just are part of its history. It does not choose these men.

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So you object to Lenin's statue being torn down? According to you, heroes make themselves and it can't be denied Lenin's influence on their society. The truth about these men was hidden from the people. They were fed a legend. It's hard to worship a man when you see him honestly for all his flaws and failings.

SonOfDaedalus said:

So you object to Lenin's statue being torn down? According to you, heroes make themselves and it can't be denied Lenin's influence on their society. The truth about these men was hidden from the people. They were fed a legend. It's hard to worship a man when you see him honestly for all his flaws and failings.

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The Ukrainians knew "the truth about Lenin" for at least twenty years before that statue came down. It came down during the 2014 revolution, when Ukraine switched from being a Russian client state to being a European client state. As usual, its destruction was an expression of contempt for the people Lenin was associated with.

You seem to think that having a statue is a comment on a man's moral character. It isn't. The truth about Lenin, Mao, Columbus, and all the other dead white (or yellow) men you want to defenestrate is that they built the world we live in. It does not matter whether they were good or bad individuals. What matters is what they mean to their peoples now.

Id just settle for leftists stopping being piece of **** hypocrites about them.

AmNat said:

The Ukrainians knew "the truth about Lenin" for at least twenty years before that statue came down. It came down during the 2014 revolution, when Ukraine switched from being a Russian client state to being a European client state. As usual, its destruction was an expression of contempt for the people Lenin was associated with.

You seem to think that having a statue is a comment on a man's moral character. It isn't. The truth about Lenin, Mao, Columbus, and all the other dead white (or yellow) men you want to defenestrate is that they built the world we live in. It does not matter whether they were good or bad individuals. What matters is what they mean to their peoples now.

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A statue of general lee now means to me that he was a traitor to the US. Many seem to agree

SonOfDaedalus said:

The statues were erected because we attempted to erase complexity and nuance. That's how heroes are created. Nobody idolizes a mere mortal full of complexity and nuance.

Once you accept the truth--the complexity and nuance you mention--there is no desire to erect a statue. Statues are often a form of propaganda.

Lenin's statue, Saddam Hussein's statue, Columbus' statue are all forms of propaganda.

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Propaganda and truth are not necessarily opposites as the best and most effective propaganda is built on the truth. (e.g. the best propaganda against Nazism is easily telling Nazi sympathisers what happened during the Holocaust and getting them to recognise it as the truth for themselves, with all the moral implications that has.)

American's understanding of their nations founding is often basically propaganda is emotionally super-charging it with national patriotism, but it also contains an element of truth in the historical details of men, places and events that took place. The ideals of Washington, Jefferson, Adams and others were worth fighting for and are worth celebrating today, even if they were profoundly compromised by the issue of slavery.

Because our knowledge of anything as individuals is always limited and finite, our historical memory is inevitability selective because we cannot compress the experiences of every individual alive during an event, or every single detail involved in it in to our own understanding. Sometimes that process of selection can be used to favour certain elements over others without compromising the integrity of the images we see as members of the public. Historians get to add in the detail when we get curious. So although you can say that erecting a statue may simplify the truth, I would not argue that it denies it.