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Statues Coming Down isn't about "Slavery," it's about Radical Change.

Captain Adverse

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We've already seen stories about statues of people like U.S. Grant, Columbus, and others being attacked/defaced/destroyed. Now here is a report of an ELK being destroyed:

Elk statue removed from downtown Portland after protesters set its base ablaze...The damage to the base was so severe that the statue had to be removed for public safety reasons; RACC was concerned the elk could topple over and injure someone.
Elk statue removed from downtown Portland after protesters set its base ablaze

Here is a video:



Note: This is the story of the statue:

Elk (sculpture) - Wikipedia

and it's creator:

Roland Hinton Perry - Wikipedia

So basically NOTHING racist or otherwise politically negative is attached to this statute. Just random destruction for destruction's sake.

So what's the problem? This young lady sums it up:



Once again I remind members of my prior posts about white-washing American history.

San Francisco Protesters Tear Down Union General Ulysses S. Grant's Statue Newsweek (9 hours prior to posting here on 06/20/20.

Small steps lead to bigger steps...
 
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Have any elks made any public comment about American history being destroyed because of the removal of the statue?
 
Destroying statues of assholes does not mean one is white washing history. White washing history is pretending confederate assholes weren't assholes and that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. One example of a non-racist statue being destroyed does not negate any of that.

We as a society get to choose who we decide to glorify. Your argument is as stupid as saying the Germans should've kept all the Hitler statues up because nobody could remember WW2 and the holocaust without one on every block. Stupid and partisan thread as usual.
 
We've already seen stories about statues of people like U.S. Grant, Columbus, and others being attacked/defaced/destroyed. Now here is a report of an ELK being destroyed:

Elk statue removed from downtown Portland after protesters set its base ablaze

Here is a video:



Note: This is the story of the statue:

Elk (sculpture) - Wikipedia

and it's creator:

Roland Hinton Perry - Wikipedia

So basically NOTHING racist or otherwise politically negative is attached to this statute. Just random destruction for destruction's sake.

So what's the problem? This young lady sums it up:



Once again I remind members of my prior posts about white-washing American history.


So this had nothing to do with the formerly whites-only ELKS organization initially. Did they later claim it, or use it in any way. I previously knew nothing about this statue.
 
Destroying statues of assholes does not mean one is white washing history. White washing history is pretending confederate assholes weren't assholes and that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. One example of a non-racist statue being destroyed does not negate any of that.

We as a society get to choose who we decide to glorify. Your argument is as stupid as saying the Germans should've kept all the Hitler statues up because nobody could remember WW2 and the holocaust without one on every block. Stupid and partisan thread as usual.

The problem with your comment is that the statues being now targeted have long left the realm of confederates. Now even statues of those who helped free the slaves and those who laid the foundation that created the the Nation of America are targets. Now the reasons are just plain vandalism for vandalism's sake, ignorance of history, anti-Americanism and anti-white racism.
 
Have any elks made any public comment about American history being destroyed because of the removal of the statue?

Yep. That's the way it works. Apathy, such as expressed here, is seen as "permission" by the political class you support and then, juxtaposed against those who endorse dissolution of the political class, it becomes a "mandate" and then a "national cause" and then....then it becomes communism and all the people are euphoric as they stand in their bread lines, get experimented on by their free medical system and get shot in the back should they fail to appreciate the bounty that their government has provided them with.

When one's political education comes from a series of one sided blog editorials, YouTube videos and "expert" interpretations of classic political thought and experience it inevitably leads to totalitarianism.
 
Destroying statues of assholes does not mean one is white washing history. White washing history is pretending confederate assholes weren't assholes and that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. One example of a non-racist statue being destroyed does not negate any of that.

We as a society get to choose who we decide to glorify. Your argument is as stupid as saying the Germans should've kept all the Hitler statues up because nobody could remember WW2 and the holocaust without one on every block. Stupid and partisan thread as usual.

I'm going to LAUGH at y'all when MLK starts coming down. I can't wait to watch you all justify that.
 
Have any elks made any public comment about American history being destroyed because of the removal of the statue?

1. Reductio ad absurdum. (Appeal to the absurd.)

Not an argument, nor a response on point to the issue/incident raised by the OP.

Deflection denied.

Destroying statues of assholes does not mean one is white washing history. White washing history is pretending confederate assholes weren't assholes and that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. One example of a non-racist statue being destroyed does not negate any of that.

We as a society get to choose who we decide to glorify. Your argument is as stupid as saying the Germans should've kept all the Hitler statues up because nobody could remember WW2 and the holocaust without one on every block. Stupid and partisan thread as usual.

2. Straw Man.

Again, neither an argument nor a valid response to the issue raised in the OP.

Deflection denied.

And I'll remind members of exactly who you have excused during the past four years.....

3. Ad hominem. Attacking the person and not their argument.

Deflection denied.

All clear examples demonstrating the absence of reason, and the prevalence of emotionalism and political bigotry in current efforts at discourse.
 
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A Black guy defending Confederate statues. I've never seen that before.

The OP makes a basic logical error. He's cherry-picking outlier examples to make a general claim about all statues.

Ulysses S. Grant is not the same as Stonewall Jackson or Jefferson Davis. Of course, there are radicals who want to even remove George Washington. But that doesn't mean that "statues coming down isn't about slavery." Jackson and Davis fought to keep your ancestors in chains. Why do they deserve statues?

Columbus was considered a monster by the people of his own time.

According to the report, Columbus once punished a man found guilty of stealing corn by having his ears and nose cut off and then selling him into slavery. Testimony recorded in the report stated that Columbus congratulated his brother Bartolomeo on "defending the family" when the latter ordered a woman paraded naked through the streets and then had her tongue cut out for suggesting that Columbus was of lowly birth.[97] The document also describes how Columbus put down native unrest and revolt: he first ordered a brutal crackdown in which many natives were killed, and then paraded their dismembered bodies through the streets in an attempt to discourage further rebellion.[98]

Why should Columbus be honored? He never set foot in what we call America. Let South America or the Caribbean put up a statue to him. But we know they won't because they recognize that he was a monster. We need to be honest about history.
 
We've already seen stories about statues of people like U.S. Grant, Columbus, and others being attacked/defaced/destroyed. Now here is a report of an ELK being destroyed:

Elk statue removed from downtown Portland after protesters set its base ablaze

Here is a video:



Note: This is the story of the statue:

Elk (sculpture) - Wikipedia

and it's creator:

Roland Hinton Perry - Wikipedia

So basically NOTHING racist or otherwise politically negative is attached to this statute. Just random destruction for destruction's sake.

So what's the problem? This young lady sums it up:



Once again I remind members of my prior posts about white-washing American history.


This is essentially why removing statues should be done by a legal process rather than by mobs. Rather than vandalism or destroying statues (many of which will have cultural and artistic value even if they represent controversial symbols), it would be better if someone removed all the Confederate Statues and simply placed them in one park, in which people can visit, that would be a better solution. It's what happened in post-communist hungry when they moved all the statues to Memento Park.
 
A Black guy defending Confederate statues. I've never seen that before.

1. Again, ad hominem aimed at the arguer and not their point.

Meanwhile, a review of my history shows I am defending the right of the locality to determine what they do and don't want in their own communities. If you oppose a public work, then you either lobby the local government or take political action in the form of a plebiscite (let the people vote). What you DON'T DO is take the law into your own hands and destroy either public OR private property.

The OP makes a basic logical error. He's cherry-picking outlier examples to make a general claim about all statues.

Ulysses S. Grant is not the same as Stonewall Jackson or Jefferson Davis. Of course, there are radicals who want to even remove George Washington. But that doesn't mean that "statues coming down isn't about slavery." Jackson and Davis fought to keep your ancestors in chains. Why do they deserve statues?

2. Another Straw Man post.

The point of the OP is that we have another example of the destruction of "history" where the target has no clear relevance to the alleged concerns leading to it's destruction. It is not a "slave-owning" representation. The creator was not a slave-owner, nor in any other declared way an "evil" person. Yet the statue was destroyed anyway. Why? No reason except...it's a statue? :roll:

Columbus was considered a monster by the people of his own time.

Why should Columbus be honored? He never set foot in what we call America. Let South America or the Caribbean put up a statue to him. But we know they won't because they recognize that he was a monster. We need to be honest about history.

3. Yet another Straw Man. The OP is about an ELK statue.

Again we have a response designed to deflect from the issue, by deflecting to things not relevant to the issue.
 
Yep. That's the way it works. Apathy, such as expressed here, is seen as "permission" by the political class you support and then, juxtaposed against those who endorse dissolution of the political class, it becomes a "mandate" and then a "national cause" and then....then it becomes communism and all the people are euphoric as they stand in their bread lines, get experimented on by their free medical system and get shot in the back should they fail to appreciate the bounty that their government has provided them with. When one's political education comes from a series of one sided blog editorials, YouTube videos and "expert" interpretations of classic political thought and experience it inevitably leads to totalitarianism.

Yes Sir, this is why tRump must not win a second term. Why the rabid right bloggers are creating a bunch warped angry white folks wanting to believe they are the down-trodden... :doh

Socialism doesn't cause any of the whines you post. Some constantly confuse communism with socialism. Capitalism has produced some massive bread lines as well, now instead of a line waiting for bread the government mails out debit cards. tRump preaches constantly about snake oil cures- from pills to Clorox so who is experimenting on it's citizens??? The biggest lie is who gets shot in the back- seems every time an unarmed black man gets shot in the back by the police- the right wing rabble crow about, 'don't run from the cops' or obey cops and you don't get shot'... :roll:

Yes, the rabid right must be stopped from trying to create a 'law and order' totalitarianism- seems every reactionary dictator claims their crack down on basic civil rights is to restore law and order... :peace
 
Meanwhile, a review of my history shows I am defending the right of the locality to determine what they do and don't want in their own communities. If you oppose a public work, then you either lobby the local government or take political action in the form of a plebiscite (let the people vote). What you DON'T DO is take the law into your own hands and destroy either public OR private property.

Do it the way we've done it here in Boston:

Members of the Boston Art Commission voted unanimously Tuesday evening to remove Boston's copy of Thomas Ball's sculpture Emancipation Memorial from Park Square. The work depicting a formerly enslaved man at the feet of Abraham Lincoln has stood there since 1879.

Boston To Remove Statue Depicting Abraham Lincoln With Freed Black Man At His Feet : Live Updates: Protests For Racial Justice : NPR
 
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A Black guy defending Confederate statues. I've never seen that before.

The OP makes a basic logical error. He's cherry-picking outlier examples to make a general claim about all statues.

Ulysses S. Grant is not the same as Stonewall Jackson or Jefferson Davis. Of course, there are radicals who want to even remove George Washington. But that doesn't mean that "statues coming down isn't about slavery." Jackson and Davis fought to keep your ancestors in chains. Why do they deserve statues?

Columbus was considered a monster by the people of his own time.



Why should Columbus be honored? He never set foot in what we call America. Let South America or the Caribbean put up a statue to him. But we know they won't because they recognize that he was a monster. We need to be honest about history.

It's no logical error. He is being deliberately dishonest.
 
3. Yet another Straw Man. The OP is about an ELK statue.

Your thread title makes no mention of an ELK statue.

Your title is: Statues Coming Down isn't about "Slavery," it's about Radical Change.

That's a claim. You can't gaslight us into believing you didn't say what you said. You can't then disown your claim because it has been proven to an illogical cherry-picking argument.

Maybe you should change your title to: ELK Statue Coming Down isn't about "Slavery," it's about Radical Change.
 
Yes Sir, this is why tRump must not win a second term. Why the rabid right bloggers are creating a bunch warped angry white folks wanting to believe they are the down-trodden... :doh

Socialism doesn't cause any of the whines you post. Some constantly confuse communism with socialism. Capitalism has produced some massive bread lines as well, now instead of a line waiting for bread the government mails out debit cards. tRump preaches constantly about snake oil cures- from pills to Clorox so who is experimenting on it's citizens??? The biggest lie is who gets shot in the back- seems every time an unarmed black man gets shot in the back by the police- the right wing rabble crow about, 'don't run from the cops' or obey cops and you don't get shot'... :roll:

Yes, the rabid right must be stopped from trying to create a 'law and order' totalitarianism- seems every reactionary dictator claims their crack down on basic civil rights is to restore law and order... :peace

We have a situation in this nation where a great number of elected political folks have WILLINGLY and ENTHUSIASTICALLY ignored their responsibilities to the community at large in favor of accommodating mobs. If it was "Boogaloo" protesters that were burning down cities and busting up statues you'd be throwing a ****fit but since you ENDORSE this kind of behavior in pursuit of a cause you agree with you're perfectly willing to ignore the consequences.
 
We have a situation in this nation where a great number of elected political folks have WILLINGLY and ENTHUSIASTICALLY ignored their responsibilities to the community at large in favor of accommodating mobs. If it was "Boogaloo" protesters that were burning down cities and busting up statues you'd be throwing a ****fit but since you ENDORSE this kind of behavior in pursuit of a cause you agree with you're perfectly willing to ignore the consequences.

Please explain to me the importance of these statues to the community at large? It seems you're only concerned with a portion of the community.

Statues are mainly for decoration. There should never be monuments to controversial people in a public square. The entire purpose of a public square or space is to unify the community.

How would you feel about a Colin Kaepernick statue in your town? Would it improve things if 51% of the residents in your town approved it?

One of the key ideas of a just democracy is that the majority should rule but they shouldn't trample over the minority. Statues glorifying men who are considered monsters by minority groups is a pointless trampling over the feelings of minority groups. If you want a unified community you should be willing to make some compromises. I can't imagine a less costly compromise than a statue removal, can you?
 
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What's wrong with radical change?
 
We've already seen stories about statues of people like U.S. Grant, Columbus, and others being attacked/defaced/destroyed. Now here is a report of an ELK being destroyed:

Elk statue removed from downtown Portland after protesters set its base ablaze

Here is a video:



Note: This is the story of the statue:

Elk (sculpture) - Wikipedia

and it's creator:

Roland Hinton Perry - Wikipedia

So basically NOTHING racist or otherwise politically negative is attached to this statute. Just random destruction for destruction's sake.

So what's the problem? This young lady sums it up:



Once again I remind members of my prior posts about white-washing American history.


I'm a native San Franciscan and I do not support vandalism, here or any where in our Country. As the lady above posted, these statues are reminders of our nation's history, from Manifest Destiny to today's racism; these monuments can stimulate how far we've come, and how far we still need to go to defeat the minority who hate and fear differences in the color, ethnicity, creed, gender, sexual orientation and ideas of We the People.

Vote, vote for change and once again hope that the resurgent bigotry and the divisive rhetoric which began in this second decade of the 21st Century can be replaced next November. It is up to us to rid our nation of hate and fear, and live up to the promise that all men and women are equal, and equal rights, equal opportunity and equal justice will one day be realized.
 
Please explain to me the importance of these statues to the community at large? It seems you're only concerned with a portion of the community.

Statues are mainly for decoration. There should never be monuments to controversial people in a public square. The entire purpose of a public square or space is to unify the community.

How would you feel about a Colin Kaepernick statue in your town? Would it improve things if 51% of the residents in your town approved it?

One of the key ideas of a just democracy is that the majority should rule but they shouldn't trample over the minority. Statues glorifying men who are considered monsters by minority groups is a pointless trampling over the feelings of minority groups. If you want a unified community you should be willing to make some compromises. I can't imagine a less costly compromise than a statue removal, can you?

Bro, there is ALWAYS going to be controversy in a free society and the only way a society continues to exist is when the people choose to cope with and overcome that controversy. When the people decide that controversy itself is intolerable and must be eradicated they have abandoned liberty entirely and have begun the process of introducing a totalitarian state.
 
Destroying statues of assholes does not mean one is white washing history. White washing history is pretending confederate assholes weren't assholes and that the Civil War wasn't about slavery. One example of a non-racist statue being destroyed does not negate any of that.

We as a society get to choose who we decide to glorify. Your argument is as stupid as saying the Germans should've kept all the Hitler statues up because nobody could remember WW2 and the holocaust without one on every block. Stupid and partisan thread as usual.

Yes, so tear down the Lincoln statue because you are offended of an image of a freed slave kneeling at Lincoln's feet. Ignorance of history is the problem in many of these situations. That statue was sponsored by and paid for totally with the dollars of newly freed slaves in appreciation of Lincoln's work. Those tearing it down know nothing of history or the message of the statue or those who paid for it. Ignorance is your enemy. If we are not going to move forward then lets have a common standard, when someone does something wrong, never forgive or offer them a second chance or redemption. How do you think that will work out?
The statues may need to be removed, do through the proper channels, follow the legal process. I suggest putting them in museums of Civil War History. However, nobody has the right to tear them down, to destroy or deface them. If the statues of famous black american were torn down, it would be just fine I guess? Do unto others.
 
Much more concerning are the politicians who are pandering to a violent mob demanding radical change. They are playing with incendiary personalities, with the hope that by offering a few partial concessions, they will appease the mob long enough to reconstruct their radical demands into a more media friendly message.

e.g. Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan plays down #CHAZ, goes on national TV to tell Donald Trump to watch the birth of democracy happen in real time, and the whole thing ends three weeks later with shootings and police enforcement to clear the mob out.

Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey bows down at the feet of BLM to apologize for his skin color, but when asked if he supports defunding police, he says "no", and booed out of the assembly.

Meanwhile the City Council votes to defund police, then hires security to protect them from the mob that demanded they defund the police!

You can't make this **** up.
 
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