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A Cheap, Race-Neutral Way to Close the Racial Wealth Gap

Where do they get that education? Where do they find those jobs? This is the playbook of the racists that established the system. Yes, people of all stripes can overcome obstacles, but the majority of people in those conditions fail. That's my point. You know the old saying about two fellows and the bear: you don't have to be faster than the bear, you just have to be faster than the other fellow. White fellows start with a headstart, yelling over his shoulder, "good luck with the bear!"

Are you really taking the position the society does not provide minorities the chance to get an education and that jobs are not available to the least educated? We can agree that people of all stripes can and do overcome obstacles but where we disagree is to who is to blame when they fail. Take responsibility.
 
I see where you're going with this, and I do see the merit. But specifically you're advocating gifting capital by racial preference, and I simply do not agree with it. I just do not believe there should be racial preferences. Pro, or con.
You're incorrect, my friend. That's the POINT of this program. It is NOT racial preference. It is universal. That it MAY have an impact on racial disparity is directly proportional to the racial disparity that persists the existing economy.
 
Are you really taking the position the society does not provide minorities the chance to get an education and that jobs are not available to the least educated? We can agree that people of all stripes can and do overcome obstacles but where we disagree is to who is to blame when they fail. Take responsibility.
I get that you are stubbornly looking away from reality, but I have a sense that maybe, deep down, you do understand the defect of your position. Because of that, I want to help you see, if you're willing to try. Maybe this will help.

The point of this program is to create a level playing field at the START of someone's life. The wealth gap persists because the wealth gap exists. The existing playing fields is not even close to being level or I would agree with your premise. This is not about handouts or creating advantages. This is about creating equity in the system. Do you honestly believe that minorities, particularly blacks, have an equal opportunity to "get ahead?" Do you acknowledge that racial disparity has been institutionalized in our great nation? If we can start with answers to those two questions, maybe we can have a dialogue.
 
You're incorrect, my friend. That's the POINT of this program. It is NOT racial preference. It is universal. That it MAY have an impact on racial disparity is directly proportional to the racial disparity that persists the existing economy.
And you are right. With the headline and the length of the article, I understood it to be a race-based program. My mistake. Thanks for correcting me, here.

However it still is an income based program, which again I do not agree with. I understand your argument, but disproportionately allotting capital strikes me as wrong. I realize our tax code acts as such, but taxes are a revenue raising source. That's different than bestowing capital. If the gift of capital was equal, I might go for it.
 
A policy specifically designed to advance one race is not "race neutral".

There it is. The racist counterargument to any social advancement policy for people of color.

AmNat doesn't want to fess up to what the underlying racist lie is: Whites and people of color always are helped or harmed in opposite directions. In other words, to someone infected with racist views, it's a zero-sum game.

So when he sees a policy that would help Blacks, he automatically makes the rush to judgment that it will hurt Whites.
 
While, in other situations I may take a more direct and proactive approach to racial inequality, in this thread I am trying to keep the focus on a particular solution to a particular condition. I appreciate the honest dialogue on the topic. This thread is specifically about the wealth gap in our society. As with most social programs it will disproportionately help whites, because they still represent the majority of society. But it will help minorities equally. That is the central premise: Equally. This is actually a conservative idea and solution.
 
I get that you are stubbornly looking away from reality, but I have a sense that maybe, deep down, you do understand the defect of your position. Because of that, I want to help you see, if you're willing to try. Maybe this will help.

The point of this program is to create a level playing field at the START of someone's life. The wealth gap persists because the wealth gap exists. The existing playing fields is not even close to being level or I would agree with your premise. This is not about handouts or creating advantages. This is about creating equity in the system. Do you honestly believe that minorities, particularly blacks, have an equal opportunity to "get ahead?" Do you acknowledge that racial disparity has been institutionalized in our great nation? If we can start with answers to those two questions, maybe we can have a dialogue.


Up intill the late 60's this country was filled with outright racists and that is a shame. That was at least 50 years ago and outright blatant racism no longer stains our souls. Explain this to me. When racism was at it worst black families were intact with a married mother and father. One or maybe both worked as welfare as we now know it didn't exist. The children fared well in school and could read, write, spell and count at grade level. Illegitimate births were not a problem like it is today. Prisons were not full to the brim with black criminals and drug using and dealing were also not a problem. While they could not drink from the same fountain, eat in your restaurant and had to sit at the back of the bus these proud people managed to retain their dignity and survive. If they could endure all of that for so many years with the deck so stacked against them why now when they enjoy so much assistance do they fail so badly?
 
And you are right. With the headline and the length of the article, I understood it to be a race-based program. My mistake. Thanks for correcting me, here.

However it still is an income based program, which again I do not agree with. I understand your argument, but disproportionately allotting capital strikes me as wrong. I realize our tax code acts as such, but taxes are a revenue raising source. That's different than bestowing capital. If the gift of capital was equal, I might go for it.
I strongly disagree with the highlighted, and here's why: taking capital and giving capital are two sides of the same coin. I agree, in principle, that the purpose of the tax system is to generate revenue. It should do so most efficiently. But that is not the tax system we have, and that tax system is largely responsible for the condition we're addressing here.

Our tax system has always skewed to the benefit of the "investing class" - those with sufficient assets ("excess wealth" - a term that requires definition., but just think of it as "spending money") that can be used simply as capital, and not for living expenses. Some of these are relatively small potatoes, mostly "deductions", but some are huge. Deductions almost always redound to the benefit of the better off: Mortgage deductions, charitable deductions, etc. They are those that can afford to take advantage of them. But over the last 40+ years this skew has accelerated: capital gains reductions, dividends exemptions, passive income/pass-through credits and deductions. Even 401(k)s.

Those that are historically disadvantaged have few such opportunities. This program goes right at that.
 
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What guarantee is there that this so called seed capital will be used in the way the authors assume? There is no guarantee which makes any such plan likely to fail.
 
Up intill the late 60's this country was filled with outright racists and that is a shame. That was at least 50 years ago and outright blatant racism no longer stains our souls. Explain this to me. When racism was at it worst black families were intact with a married mother and father. One or maybe both worked as welfare as we now know it didn't exist. The children fared well in school and could read, write, spell and count at grade level. Illegitimate births were not a problem like it is today. Prisons were not full to the brim with black criminals and drug using and dealing were also not a problem. While they could not drink from the same fountain, eat in your restaurant and had to sit at the back of the bus these proud people managed to retain their dignity and survive. If they could endure all of that for so many years with the deck so stacked against them why now when they enjoy so much assistance do they fail so badly?
My god, man, wake up and smell the coffee. Do you think these problems are new? Do you think racism magically disappeared 50 years ago? "outright blatant racism no longer stains our souls" With THIS President? Are you blind? Have you not been paying attention? Do you only watch 50s sitcoms? We're not talking about mere survival, though there is little enough of that. We're talking about a system, economic, political, and social that perpetuates inequality - not 50 years ago, but today.

The number of racist stereotypes that permeate your post is utterly astounding. I was perhaps too optimistic (it's a fault). What "so much assistance" are you referring to? Whites get more welfare than blacks, did you know that? The nuclear family is waning in white society, too. Black families support more family members, more generations, and work more jobs, and for less pay, than their white counterparts. You're describing a fantasy world that doesn't exist, my friend. That is a serious problem.
 
I strongly disagree with the highlighted, and here's why: taking capital and giving capital are two sides of the same coin. I agree, in principle, that the purpose of the tax system is to generate revenue. It should do so most efficiently. But that is not the tax system we have, and that tax system is largely responsible for the condition we're addressing here.

Our tax system has always skewed to the benefit of the "investing class" - those with sufficient assets ("excess wealth" - a term that requires definition., but just think of it as "spending money") that can be used simply as capital, ands not for living expenses. Some of these are relatively small potatoes, mostly "deductions", but some are huge. Deductions almost always respond to the benefit of the better off: Mortgage deductions, charitable deductions, etc. They are those that can afford to take advantage of them. But over the last 40+ years this skew has accelerated: capital gains reductions, dividends exemptions, passive income/pass-through credits and deductions. Even 401(k)s.

Those that are historically disadvantaged have few such opportunities. This program goes right at that.
I'm glad we don't take the opposite side of many issues, because you are tenacious! :2razz:

(I say the above as a compliment)

--

While the net capital result of 'taxing' vs 'bestowing/gifting' is the same, they are not the same actions. Besides generating revenue, taxes are used to modify behaviours. There is an inherent difference in giving someone something, vs taking less of what they have away.

The idea of giving, vs 'not taking away', are prime concepts in my ideological argument. As you can see I feel no need to give to specific groups in difference to others. Which again is why I do not believe in means based systems. Rather, I believe in basic policies equal for all. If we feel the need to provide a safety net (I do!), then provide a UBI.

As to the tax system, I'm in full agreement that it's skewed to benefit the wealthy and penalize the working class. That needs to be fixed. But by fixed, I mean 'fixed', not gifting capital.

I think we also have another ideological difference. I believe government should right wrongs. It should provide for equal opportunity & equality under the law. But besides through the courts, I do not believe government should be attempting to right wrongs beyond providing equality, by further skewing in the opposite direction to move needles past the point of equality.

This last item can be seen through affirmative action and other programs. I believe we should be insuring equality, not trying to make up for past grievances. Otherwise, we are creating new grievances through are new actions, and we do indeed see this now in some of our programs. These are sticky points, because it might seem racial or economic preference may be needed to restore equality. But that's exactly what I'm arguing against. I don't believe in doing a wrong to correct a wrong, and doing anything more than treating Americans equally is wrong in my book.
 
While I don't want this thread to devolve into a discussion of affirmative action or reparations, I do want to respond to a couple of points that touch on that. (Btw, I've always viewed tenacity as a virtue.)
While the net capital result of 'taxing' vs 'bestowing/gifting' is the same, they are not the same actions. Besides generating revenue, taxes are used to modify behaviours. There is an inherent difference in giving someone something, vs taking less of what they have away.
I understand your conceptual framework, but let me dent it a little. As you note, "taxes are used to modify behaviours". (I have always had mixed feelings about that.) One of the methods is a tax "credit". Credits generally have the opposite effect of a deduction, in that they are more significant to those with lower incomes. Some are even "refundable", meaning one can get them even if the credit is larger than their income. That brings up a reality: all tax policy is distributional, some is just more direct than others. A credit, especially a refundable one, is a direct payment from the government to reward a behavior or condition. It is largely disguised, because it is "offset " against taxes owed. More on that in a moment.
The idea of giving, vs 'not taking away', are prime concepts in my ideological argument. As you can see I feel no need to give to specific groups in difference to others. Which again is why I do not believe in means based systems. Rather, I believe in basic policies equal for all. If we feel the need to provide a safety net (I do!), then provide a UBI.
Were we writing on a blank slate, I would likely mirror your approach - but we're not. As I've gone on at length about, the current economic condition of our society is not equal, and it cannot right itself without outside intervention. It is well and good to create an equal system for the future, but that has a tendency to lock in the status quo, in this case a status quo created by centuries of deliberate discrimination. If two runners engage in a footrace, but one gets a head start, who is most likely to "win"? In horse racing, jockeys' weights are evened out by, literally, placing weights on their saddles to make the race fair. That is what this program is about (and why "means testing" is appropriate). Rather than picking winners and losers, the idea is to have everyone start at the same point, rather than giving some a leg up.

As to the tax system, I'm in full agreement that it's skewed to benefit the wealthy and penalize the working class. That needs to be fixed. But by fixed, I mean 'fixed', not gifting capital.
Again, in a pristine world, I would agree with you, but we've been "gifting capital" for decades, even centuries. The Homestead Acts gave BILLIONS of (today's) dollars of wealth to whites, but explicitly excluded blacks. The GI bill excluded blacks from the education provided to their white peers. Social Security was originally engineered to exclude blacks from getting its benefits. All of those were direct transfers of capital from the government, and still forms the foundation of much of the wealth in today's economy. My father, son of a single mother, got his law degree on the GI Bill. Do you think that gave me a leg up in life? Many family farms are still operated on the same homesteads gifted a century or more ago (the program didn't end until 1934).

I think we also have another ideological difference. I believe government should right wrongs. It should provide for equal opportunity & equality under the law. But besides through the courts, I do not believe government should be attempting to right wrongs beyond providing equality, by further skewing in the opposite direction to move needles past the point of equality.
How do you propose righting those wrongs without catching up the disadvantaged? That's why I think this program is absolutely appropriate, and why means testing it is too.
 
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The best way to close a wealth gap is to make it easier for people to earn, take less of the fruit of their labor, and don't mandate how they spend their money.
Look! A postcard from Mars!
 
While, in other situations I may take a more direct and proactive approach to racial inequality, in this thread I am trying to keep the focus on a particular solution to a particular condition. I appreciate the honest dialogue on the topic. This thread is specifically about the wealth gap in our society. As with most social programs it will disproportionately help whites, because they still represent the majority of society. But it will help minorities equally. That is the central premise: Equally. This is actually a conservative idea and solution.

I like the basic idea and it would be a big step forward short term, but I don't believe it will have a lasting effect long term. First of all, I don't believe middle class children should be included in a program like this, relatively speaking, they're doing just fine. If it was limited to poor families, it would go a long way to initially close the wealth gap in our society, but if the middle class wasn't included, it would help blacks kids twice as much as white kid (blacks make up twice the number of poor whites).

But long term? I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but if systemic racism is not overcome, it won't take very many years before we're right back to where we started from. I believe it will take 100+ years to overcome this. I hope I'm wrong...
 
I like the basic idea and it would be a big step forward short term, but I don't believe it will have a lasting effect long term. First of all, I don't believe middle class children should be included in a program like this, relatively speaking, they're doing just fine. If it was limited to poor families, it would go a long way to initially close the wealth gap in our society, but if the middle class wasn't included, it would help blacks kids twice as much as white kid (blacks make up twice the number of poor whites).

But long term? I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but if systemic racism is not overcome, it won't take very many years before we're right back to where we started from. I believe it will take 100+ years to overcome this. I hope I'm wrong...
I agree that this is just one aspect of an extremely complicated problem, but it gets at one of the most pernicious, and one, I think, that a majority of Americans could get behind.
Naomi Zewde of the City University of New York studied a hypothetical baby-bond program that would provide rich babies $200 in assets and poor babies $50,000 in assets, with infants born to middle-class families getting scaled amounts in between. As of 2015, the median white young adult had a net worth of $46,000, versus $2,900 for the median black young adult. Had they been granted baby bonds at birth, white young adults would be worth $79,159 and black young adults $57,845, Zewde found. White kids would be roughly 40 percent wealthier than black kids, not 16 times as wealthy.
So, they'd only be a few blocks behind, rather than a few miles...
 
I agree that this is just one aspect of an extremely complicated problem, but it gets at one of the most pernicious, and one, I think, that a majority of Americans could get behind. So, they'd only be a few blocks behind, rather than a few miles...

Yeah, it's a start in the right direction...
 
My god, man, wake up and smell the coffee. Do you think these problems are new? Do you think racism magically disappeared 50 years ago? "outright blatant racism no longer stains our souls" With THIS President? Are you blind? Have you not been paying attention? Do you only watch 50s sitcoms? We're not talking about mere survival, though there is little enough of that. We're talking about a system, economic, political, and social that perpetuates inequality - not 50 years ago, but today.

The number of racist stereotypes that permeate your post is utterly astounding. I was perhaps too optimistic (it's a fault). What "so much assistance" are you referring to? Whites get more welfare than blacks, did you know that? The nuclear family is waning in white society, too. Black families support more family members, more generations, and work more jobs, and for less pay, than their white counterparts. You're describing a fantasy world that doesn't exist, my friend. That is a serious problem.

There isn't much sense in discussing this further because you just locked into white guilt or blind to reality. Your tunnel vision is most apparent in this statement. "Whites get more welfare than blacks" OF COURSE they do, whites outnumber blacks by about 6 to 1, do the math. Another chink in your list---blacks work for less pay. Once again OF COURSE they do as a group they are less educated, do the math. Ok, whites are now producing more illigetimate kids so your reasoning is that makes it alright for blacks to to the same. Just like all your liberal counterparts your just another excuse maker and apologist.
 
There isn't much sense in discussing this further because you just locked into white guilt or blind to reality. Your tunnel vision is most apparent in this statement. "Whites get more welfare than blacks" OF COURSE they do, whites outnumber blacks by about 6 to 1, do the math. Another chink in your list---blacks work for less pay. Once again OF COURSE they do as a group they are less educated, do the math. Ok, whites are now producing more illigetimate kids so your reasoning is that makes it alright for blacks to to the same. Just like all your liberal counterparts your just another excuse maker and apologist.
I suspected you were just another doctrinaire white apologist, but I was giving you a chance. You can lead a horse to water... but if one is not willing to engage the brain, or the heart, one is a lost cause. The defects in your thinking are legion. I'm not here to fix you. Be well.
 
I suspected you were just another doctrinaire white apologist, but I was giving you a chance. You can lead a horse to water... but if one is not willing to engage the brain, or the heart, one is a lost cause. The defects in your thinking are legion. I'm not here to fix you. Be well.

Touche!
 
Interesting. How to you ensure equal opportunity without equal capital, in a capitalist society? Especially when a key strategy in a supremacist society is to prevent equal capital? I agree with you that equal opportunity over providing equal capital should be the goal...but I think there's a catch up period that needs to occur to facilitate that goal. What do I need to understand better?
Our difference basically comes to ideology:

Do we try to artificially stimulate capital injection to make-up for what we perceive as unfairness?

or,

Do we ensure equal opportunity to acquire capital?

I'm not arguing for capital equality. Not at all. No one is to expect that. Capital needs to be earned. And I'm simply arguing for the equal opportunity to do that.

I came out of Euro immigrant stock. And I saw what hard-working business-oriented immigrants can accomplish in a couple quick generations. So I don't particularity see the need for a program like this. I've seen immigrants literally become millionaires over the course of two decades. And I've seen families that are on public assistance for generations. All starting-out in the same nearby neighborhoods.

So tell me, how does the guy who comes here with nothing & not speaking English, end-up owning a chain of stores? While others in the same and nearby neighborhoods end-up on the dole for generations? Same system, right?
 
While I don't want this thread to devolve into a discussion of affirmative action or reparations, I do want to respond to a couple of points that touch on that. (Btw, I've always viewed tenacity as a virtue.)I understand your conceptual framework, but let me dent it a little. As you note, "taxes are used to modify behaviours". (I have always had mixed feelings about that.) One of the methods is a tax "credit". Credits generally have the opposite effect of a deduction, in that they are more significant to those with lower incomes. Some are even "refundable", meaning one can get them even if the credit is larger than their income. That brings up a reality: all tax policy is distributional, some is just more direct than others. A credit, especially a refundable one, is a direct payment from the government to reward a behavior or condition. It is largely disguised, because it is "offset " against taxes owed. More on that in a moment.
For the record, I'm also against 'refundable' tax plans that provide capital in excess of one's withholding.

Were we writing on a blank slate, I would likely mirror your approach - but we're not. As I've gone on at length about, the current economic condition of our society is not equal, and it cannot right itself without outside intervention. It is well and good to create an equal system for the future, but that has a tendency to lock in the status quo, in this case a status quo created by centuries of deliberate discrimination. If two runners engage in a footrace, but one gets a head start, who is most likely to "win"? In horse racing, jockeys' weights are evened out by, literally, placing weights on their saddles to make the race fair. That is what this program is about (and why "means testing" is appropriate). Rather than picking winners and losers, the idea is to have everyone start at the same point, rather than giving some a leg up.
We are not talking analogies, though. Besides, I never liked them because they are never accurate.

There is no guarantee in capitalism to be born into a life of accrued capital. The basic building block is to start with one's own labour, then take it from there. And a great many have successfully gone on to do well from there, as I point-out below. Besides providing equal opportunity, I'm still not buying the idea of gifting capital to make-up for some perceived injustice in the past.

Again, in a pristine world, I would agree with you, but we've been "gifting capital" for decades, even centuries. The Homestead Acts gave BILLIONS of (today's) dollars of wealth to whites, but explicitly excluded blacks. The GI bill excluded blacks from the education provided to their white peers. Social Security was originally engineered to exclude blacks from getting its benefits. All of those were direct transfers of capital from the government, and still forms the foundation of much of the wealth in today's economy. My father, son of a single mother, got his law degree on the GI Bill. Do you think that gave me a leg up in life? Many family farms are still operated on the same homesteads gifted a century or more ago (the program didn't end until 1934).
I would need to see evidence of the claims above. I'm not aware of any racial exclusions to Homesteading, Soc Sec, or the G.I. Bill.

How do you propose righting those wrongs without catching up the disadvantaged? That's why I think this program is absolutely appropriate, and why means testing it is too.
I wouldn't. I would provide equal opportunity to acquire capital by not allowing discrimination, but I would not do anything to promote one group over another to 'catch up'.

I'll share with you what I shared in a post above. I come from immigrant stock. I've seen 'off-the-boat' immigrants with no English, no education, nothing, become millionaires in two decades. Several, as a matter of fact. And many others that may not have hit a Mil, but ran successful businesses that put their kids through school and into the professions. I also saw families on the dole for generations. Same system. Same, or nearby neighborhoods. How did that happen? No one gave those immigrants a penny.
 
Here is a novel idea: don't have babies you can't afford.

Here is another idea: stop paying out welfare to encourage people to have babies they can't afford
 
Our difference basically comes to ideology:

Do we try to artificially stimulate capital injection to make-up for what we perceive as unfairness?

or,

Do we ensure equal opportunity to acquire capital?

I'm not arguing for capital equality. Not at all. No one is to expect that. Capital needs to be earned. And I'm simply arguing for the equal opportunity to do that.

I came out of Euro immigrant stock. And I saw what hard-working business-oriented immigrants can accomplish in a couple quick generations. So I don't particularity see the need for a program like this. I've seen immigrants literally become millionaires over the course of two decades. And I've seen families that are on public assistance for generations. All starting-out in the same nearby neighborhoods.

So tell me, how does the guy who comes here with nothing & not speaking English, end-up owning a chain of stores? While others in the same and nearby neighborhoods end-up on the dole for generations? Same system, right?
What color was their skin?
 
For the record, I'm also against 'refundable' tax plans that provide capital in excess of one's withholding.

We are not talking analogies, though. Besides, I never liked them because they are never accurate.

There is no guarantee in capitalism to be born into a life of accrued capital. The basic building block is to start with one's own labour, then take it from there. And a great many have successfully gone on to do well from there, as I point-out below. Besides providing equal opportunity, I'm still not buying the idea of gifting capital to make-up for some perceived injustice in the past.

I would need to see evidence of the claims above. I'm not aware of any racial exclusions to Homesteading, Soc Sec, or the G.I. Bill.

I wouldn't. I would provide equal opportunity to acquire capital by not allowing discrimination, but I would not do anything to promote one group over another to 'catch up'.

I'll share with you what I shared in a post above. I come from immigrant stock. I've seen 'off-the-boat' immigrants with no English, no education, nothing, become millionaires in two decades. Several, as a matter of fact. And many others that may not have hit a Mil, but ran successful businesses that put their kids through school and into the professions. I also saw families on the dole for generations. Same system. Same, or nearby neighborhoods. How did that happen? No one gave those immigrants a penny.

With respect, and our history supports that, we do have a fundamental difference here, but I believe you have the capacity to change your mind, so I'll make that effort. This is an issue that I am both well informed on and passionate about.

I'm not presently at my computer, so citations may be difficult regarding homesteading, the GI Bill, etc, but I promise to provide them. More to follow, obviously, but I'm not doctrinaire about capitalism, nor blind to both inherent and manipulated disparities of the process.

By the way, I'm using the history to demonstrate not disparities of the past, but why they perpetuate the disparities of the present.
 
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