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Photos : ISIS destroying statues and the similarities

Bark said:
Germans do not still hold grudges for WW2 they admitted their mistakes. At some point the US will have to too.
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The Germans apologized in the years directly after the war. The people collaborated or were directly involved in the murders of over 11 million people based on their religious beliefs.

What you are saying that is that at some point all American white people (many of whom were raised in poverty) will apologize and submit for injustices from past generations. It's beyond ridiculous! By the way, Germany only abolished slavery 17 years before the USA in 1848. So should the current German people apologize for that as well?
 
Chuck9788 said:
The Germans apologized in the years directly after the war.

What you are saying that is that at some point all American white people (many of whom were raised in poverty) to apologize and submit for injustices from past generations. It's beyond ridiculous! By the way, Germany only abolished slavery 17 years before the USA in 1848. So should the current German people apologize for that as well?
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You are saying America fell behind Nazi Germany?
 
Bark said:
You are saying America fell behind Nazi Germany?
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I'm saying that germans apologized after they were caught red handed committing genocide.

White Americans today are not responsible for the slave trade or other perceived injustices and should not be expected to apologize. I feel that my point is pretty clear here.
 
Chuck9788 said:
I'm saying that germans apologized after they were caught red handed committing genocide.

White Americans today are not responsible for the slave trade or other perceived injustices and should not be expected to apologize. I feel that my point is pretty clear here.
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The injustices perpetrated against American Indians are ongoing. Perhaps you could start with apologizing for those. Or even stopping them.
 
Chuck9788 said:
I'm saying that germans apologized after they were caught red handed committing genocide.

White Americans today are not responsible for the slave trade or other perceived injustices and should not be expected to apologize. I feel that my point is pretty clear here.
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Right. They admitted it and owned up to it. We.... Well we have a bunch of whinny babies who claim victim hood while they are incapable as grown men to own what happened and simply say "my bad"
 
Irredentist said:
The injustices perpetrated against American Indians are ongoing. Perhaps you could start with apologizing for those. Or even stopping them.
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I have not contributed to ANY injustices towards our native American brothers and sisters. So why should I apologize? Why is it my duty to fight for Native American injustices?

Anyway, as a President Trump supporter (especially here in Nevada) I'd like to think that I am pretty popular around the tribes today.

Nevada’s Native American tribes to get health care funds | Las Vegas Review-Journal

"The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services announced Friday it will be sending more than $6.3 million to Native American health care providers in Nevada as part of $500 million in national relief".
 
Chuck9788 said:
I have not contributed to ANY injustices towards our native American brothers and sisters. So why should I apologize? Why is it my duty to fight for Native American injustices?

Anyway, as a President Trump supporter (especially here in Nevada) I'd like to think that I am pretty popular around the tribes today.

Nevada’s Native American tribes to get health care funds | Las Vegas Review-Journal

"The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services announced Friday it will be sending more than $6.3 million to Native American health care providers in Nevada as part of $500 million in national relief".
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So, nothing that our government does to harm American Indians is your responsibility, but you expect credit for the actions of the Health and Human Services Department? :lamo
 
Irredentist said:
The injustices perpetrated against American Indians are ongoing. Perhaps you could start with apologizing for those. Or even stopping them.
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Horrible injustices like free money and special legal privileges.
 
Chuck9788 said:
HOW IS IT MY RESPONSIBILITY?!?

Please stop with your stupid games and specifically explain yourself.
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How are you responsible for HHS sending money to Native American tribes?
 
Bark said:
There is a reckoning. Pretty much all of America is built upon the deaths of others. Columbus and the Spanish slaughtered to get gold, etc. The Virginia company slaughtered after being helped on Thanksgiving for furs, etc. All minorities not born on this land were brought in for slave labor. Worst part is "All men are endowed, etc." You can't claim your nation is built upon something only 1% are and then claim all men. Germans do not still hold grudges for WW2 they admitted their mistakes. At some point the US will have to too.
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First, I disagree with your grossly generalized characterization of the history of our nation. But let us grant for the sake of argument that everything you say is 100% true and correct.

And that is enough to allow the unauthorized destruction and tearing down of statues and monuments?

If it were put to a vote and 80% of a given community and its elected leaders want to keep a statue of Washington or Jefferson or Columbus standing, does the radical 20% get to run roughshod and tear down the statue or destroy the monument?
 
Tigerace117 said:
Depends on who it is. A genocidal thug who murdered a substantial portion of a local populace, like that conquistador, doesn’t deserve a statue, especially since he got kicked out of New Mexico for doing so in the first place.
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In the words of Clint Eastwood from Unforgiven: "Deserve"'s got nothing to do with it.

My point is this: Whether a statue or monument of any figure whether universally lauded or hated remains up is a decision for the community in question to make, whether it is a municipality, county, or state. Some unelected self-appointed group of modern day puritanical iconoclasts claiming to represent the will of aggrieved minorities do not get to go and decide for me which statues remain standing. Let it be debated and put up for a vote. If people vote down Columbus, or Ulysses S. Grant or Tecumseh Sherman, let them be torn down by a contracted disassembly crew. But if they are voted to remain in place, they should remain in place.
 
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Felis Leo said:
In the words of Clint Eastwood from Unforgiven: "Deserve"'s got nothing to do with it.

My point is this: Whether a statue or monument of any figure whether universally lauded or hated remains up is a decision for the community in question to make, whether it is a municipality, county, or state. Some unelected self-appointed group of modern day puritanical iconoclasts claiming to represent the will of aggrieved minorities do not get to go and decide for me which statues remain standing. Let it be debated and put up for a vote. If people vote down Columbus, or Ulysses S. Grant or Tecumseh Sherman, let them be torn down by a contracted disassembly crew. But if they are voted to remain in place, they should remain in place.
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However people should be required to pass a history test about the person the statue is of before getting a ballot.

Almost no one would hate Columbus if what they knew about him was the truth
 
Felis Leo said:
First, I disagree with your grossly generalized characterization of the history of our nation. But let us grant for the sake of argument that everything you say is 100% true and correct.

And that is enough to allow the unauthorized destruction and tearing down of statues and monuments?

If it were put to a vote and 80% of a given community and its elected leaders want to keep a statue of Washington or Jefferson or Columbus standing, does the radical 20% get to run roughshod and tear down the statue or destroy the monument?
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There was no vote taken before folks started destroying private property in the Boston Harbor. Had a vote been taken the US would still be a British Colony. It was radicals who made this country independent. Given that history lesson, I say yes. Let radicals destroy symbols of oppression. We keep glossing over the fact that Lee said that era should not be commemorated. We also keep glossing over the fact that these monuments were erected long after the era itself as a reminder of de jure oppression rather than de facto.

Jefferson was very obviously a white supremacist. I read Notes on the State of Virginia years ago. This section never left me.

Jefferson's notes on Slavery < 1776-1785 < Documents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

"Most of the good and evil things in this life are judged by comparison." George Washington.

black men and women, "a species of property" GW

So by comparison I'd say he was a slave trader and a violent white supremacist. You can romanticize people's achievements, but it does not negate their villainy.
 
Felis Leo said:
In the words of Clint Eastwood from Unforgiven: "Deserve"'s got nothing to do with it.

My point is this: Whether a statue or monument of any figure whether universally lauded or hated remains up is a decision for the community in question to make, whether it is a municipality, county, or state. Some unelected self-appointed group of modern day puritanical iconoclasts claiming to represent the will of aggrieved minorities do not get to go and decide for me which statues remain standing. Let it be debated and put up for a vote. If people vote down Columbus, or Ulysses S. Grant or Tecumseh Sherman, let them be torn down by a contracted disassembly crew. But if they are voted to remain in place, they should remain in place.
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All this assumes a valid social contract. The right of an oppressed segment to lash out is manifest when that contract is broken. "All men are created equal" That is the contract. It has not stood the test of time. Those monuments are there expressly to state that equality is not real. So no, the government has no say they voided the contract.
 
Bark said:
There was no vote taken before folks started destroying private property in the Boston Harbor. Had a vote been taken the US would still be a British Colony. It was radicals who made this country independent. Given that history lesson, I say yes. Let radicals destroy symbols of oppression. We keep glossing over the fact that Lee said that era should not be commemorated. We also keep glossing over the fact that these monuments were erected long after the era itself as a reminder of de jure oppression rather than de facto.
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Your statements do not hold up the most meager scrutiny, Bark, either in fact or in theory. First, you claim that it was radicals that made this country independent, but then turn around and decry those very same radicals like Jefferson and Washington of being worthy of damnatio memoriae.

Second, the British colonies and subjects had no ultimate say over their affairs. The American citizenry does. Across the country, and throughout the South, monuments to Confederate leaders are being taken down through peaceful means via the ballot box and through the legislatures. Unless you do not believe American democracy is legitimate at the local, state, and federal levels when things do not go your way.

Finally, radicalism does not automatically mean righteousness. The American Founders were radicals. Many Democratic movements were radical. But then, so were many anti-Democratic movements.

Bark said:
Jefferson was very obviously a white supremacist. I read Notes on the State of Virginia years ago. This section never left me.

Jefferson's notes on Slavery < 1776-1785 < Documents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond

"Most of the good and evil things in this life are judged by comparison." George Washington.

black men and women, "a species of property" GW

So by comparison I'd say he was a slave trader and a violent white supremacist. You can romanticize people's achievements, but it does not negate their villainy.
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Yes, these men said and did some terrible things. And they did some amazing things that put them ahead and above many people both philosophically and morally in their time. Compared to anyone else in their time, in a time where slavery was a worldwide phenomenon, in a time where autocratic rule and absolute monarchy was the order of the day, they were pretty damn progressive. You may say in a moment of unexamined moral outrage that their bad acts so stain their good acts that they are undeserving of any place in our public square. But nothing you have said justifies lawlessness. Make your case and encourage your representatives to tear down monuments to the past. But if things do not go your way and you take to the streets in order to vandalize what others wish to remain in place, expect to be arrested, fined and imprisoned.
 
Bark said:
All this assumes a valid social contract. The right of an oppressed segment to lash out is manifest when that contract is broken. "All men are created equal" That is the contract. It has not stood the test of time. Those monuments are there expressly to state that equality is not real. So no, the government has no say they voided the contract.
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This presumes that American democracy at the local, state and federal levels are, in this very moment, illegitimate. If you believe it to be so, then it is not merely destruction of property that is justified. That is merely masturbatory. Violent revolution would justified.

You have yet to demonstrate that American democracy at any level is illegitimate.
 
Felis Leo said:
This presumes that American democracy at the local, state and federal levels are, in this very moment, illegitimate. If you believe it to be so, then it is not merely destruction of property that is justified. That is merely masturbatory. Violent revolution would justified.

You have yet to demonstrate that American democracy at any level is illegitimate.
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Its not the democracy. Democracy is the peaceful transition of power. We have yet to face that problem. Not to say we won't soon though. And neither do I want violent revolution. American democracy is not illegitimate.

This is my argument: It is not a matter of voting. We are each handed a card with people we can vote for. No problem with this. My issue is with who we allowed to vote for. Who we may vote for is a product of lobbying and backroom deals. It is what senator did the most for people behind closed doors. What governor did, etc down the line. This means money played a big part. What business supported that governor because he looked the other way in hiring practices. What lobby group sent out 50k mailers because that senator voted with them every time. Here in Texas some of the biggest republican donors are home builders and HEB. They also send out their armies when an immigration bill comes along. I won't keep on about this, I think this is enough to give you an idea about why I feel democracy is legitimate, but rigged.

The social contract: "All men are created equal." This is the contract and the argument I am willing to concede is it means women too, which we know is not true. There was the emancipation proclamation. This did not create equality. There was Plessy. This did not create equality. There was Brown v the board. This did not create equality. There was the civil rights amendment, this did not create equality. Gregg and Furman v Georgia did not create equality.

After the emancipation proclamation Jim Crow assured whites blacks would not be equal. Plessy convinced legislators to reduce funding in areas. The idea of separate but equal applies to the SC, not the legislators. In Brown the people who threatened that little girl going to school, or those kids going to a white college were the problem. And legislators responded to this. The civil rights amendment was undercut by zero tolerance, stop and frisk, new voter regulations, redlining, discriminatory hiring practices, etc. All this done at the local, state, federal, and private citizen level.

Black people were brought here against their will. And despite the SC always doing its best to stand behind the slogan of "All men..." As a legislative body they failed that. As a policing body they have failed that. As citizens who can give loans, and mortgages, and jobs we failed that. So yes the contract is broken, despite what the best 9 of our nation have tried to do to honor it.

Democracy is a voting policy. I say America's best institution is the SC, despite executives, legislators and private citizens doing everything they can to buck them.
 
Tigerace117 said:
72 Years Ago, The US Army Blew Up A Giant Swastika In Nazi Germany - Task & Purpose

The hysterics from Trump supporters never end :roll:

Call me when Trump cultists are being decapitated. Until then, this is just another case of people desperately trying to downplay the atrocities committed by ISIS because they hate anyone to the left of Pinochet.
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Quite a difference between Christoper Columbus and Hitler. To a mindless BLM troadie they just follow their cult BLM leaders. G. Washington Bad, George Floyd hero. he was only a druggie felon. Like the toadies marching on his behalf.
 
Felis Leo said:
Your statements do not hold up the most meager scrutiny, Bark, either in fact or in theory. First, you claim that it was radicals that made this country independent, but then turn around and decry those very same radicals like Jefferson and Washington of being worthy of damnatio memoriae.

Second, the British colonies and subjects had no ultimate say over their affairs. The American citizenry does. Across the country, and throughout the South, monuments to Confederate leaders are being taken down through peaceful means via the ballot box and through the legislatures. Unless you do not believe American democracy is legitimate at the local, state, and federal levels when things do not go your way.

Finally, radicalism does not automatically mean righteousness. The American Founders were radicals. Many Democratic movements were radical. But then, so were many anti-Democratic movements.



Yes, these men said and did some terrible things. And they did some amazing things that put them ahead and above many people both philosophically and morally in their time. Compared to anyone else in their time, in a time where slavery was a worldwide phenomenon, in a time where autocratic rule and absolute monarchy was the order of the day, they were pretty damn progressive. You may say in a moment of unexamined moral outrage that their bad acts so stain their good acts that they are undeserving of any place in our public square. But nothing you have said justifies lawlessness. Make your case and encourage your representatives to tear down monuments to the past. But if things do not go your way and you take to the streets in order to vandalize what others wish to remain in place, expect to be arrested, fined and imprisoned.
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You obviously love your Latin. What those radicals did was to throw off the yoke of an oppressive government. AAAND then put it on another. Much like the Jews who were murdered for simply living somewhere, then being more than willing to do it to others who just lived there. You really should read what Jefferson says in Notes on. He says blacks are not the same as whites because of sweat. Those people did not regard black people as worthy humans. Just read their own words. Sivilization with an "S."

Second: Blacks Americans have not had say in their own affairs. Poll taxes, literacy tests, etc were aimed squarely at them. Evidence being that whites were not subjected to the same. And yes Confederate monuments are being brought down by legislators a hundred years after they were erected. Not a hundred and fifty, because I'm sure you know when these "monuments" were built. It only took a hundred years for legislators to care about black people having to spend a peaceful day in the park while looking at Nathan Bedford Forest reminding them of where they came from.

Radicalism, to me, means the voice of the minority.
 
Aurora said:
Quite a difference between Christoper Columbus and Hitler. To a mindless BLM troadie they just follow their cult BLM leaders. G. Washington Bad, George Floyd hero. he was only a druggie felon. Like the toadies marching on his behalf.
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And George Washington just bought and sold humans.
 
Bark said:
And George Washington just bought and sold humans.
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Much of the world did. Africa did. Slavery came to an end in the USA and much of the world. I realize you have to reach back 400 years to explain away why some can't get it together. That will be your crutch to lean on.
Meanwhile some third world immigrant comes here with nothing and in time is functioning just fine. You on the other hand will pull out a race card.
 
Aurora said:
Quite a difference between Christoper Columbus and Hitler. To a mindless BLM troadie they just follow their cult BLM leaders. G. Washington Bad, George Floyd hero. he was only a druggie felon. Like the toadies marching on his behalf.
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George Floyd did nothing worthy of the death penalty, and crying about how he was a “felon” doesn’t change the fact that he was murdered.

The fact that conservatives can’t grasp that is really laughable.
 
Aurora said:
Much of the world did. Africa did. Slavery came to an end in the USA and much of the world. I realize you have to reach back 400 years to explain away why some can't get it together. That will be your crutch to lean on.
Meanwhile some third world immigrant comes here with nothing and in time is functioning just fine. You on the other hand will pull out a race card.
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My name is Abdul. My dad came here and became the engineer who engineered part of the ship that capped off the BP spill in the gulf. He made the walk from India to Pakistan under guns. And yes people like you suck.
 
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