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Why preserve monuments and bases after men of hate and evil?

vegas giants said:
Dude would you oppose a group wanting yo build such statues in the public square?


Your argument is we must remember our history ....good and bad and statues is the way to do it.


So take a stand...would you support or oppose such statues?
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Statues already MADE....stop twisting crap to suit your purpose

and if someone were to come along and want to build one for Sirhan Sirhan i am sure there would be plenty of people in line making sure it didnt get put into a park

At one time, these people...ALL of these people were important in our history....at least to that local area....yes or no?

I just think we are throwing the baby out with the bath water....
 
MamboDervish said:
At the root of the problem is the fact that we tend to idolize people at all. Aren't all statues to people nothing more than false idols? People are flawed - period. The more we find out about anyone, the more tarnished their memory becomes. Just imagine if, in the Illinois 14th District, someone had erected a statue to Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert !?!

I'm not suggesting that, in the end, all our heroes turn out to scumbags like he did - but we should have more introspection about our own need for idol worship. The founding fathers may have all been remarkable men, but in the end, they were only men.
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true that

human beings with flaws that made mistakes....but also incredible men that led this nation's birth

statues and memorials help celebrate those deeds....if you take them for what their intention is for

none of these men were perfect...most FAR from it

but they were a huge part of where we came from....and as i take my grand kids to a local exhibit, i can go through the history...good and bad that these men were part of....hiding from their mistakes is where we error...learning from them is the key
 
Irredentist said:
Prosecuting them afterwards doesn't stop them from destroying the statue though.
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as always, it sends the message that lawlessness will not be tolerated in civil society, thus giving those who may think to tear down something illegally next, time for pause.
 
vegas giants said:
Hero worship is ridiculous. Tear down every memorial to a man and I would be fine with that
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well at least that is consistent.

it should be done legally with a vote in the locality or by whoever owns it though.
 
People have tried to vote and say they want it taken down but the government has ignored them and so they done it themselves.
 
They don't deserve to be idolised. People can be taught about them in school or put them in the museum, where people can decide if they want to go and see them.
 
gdgyva said:
Statues already MADE....stop twisting crap to suit your purpose

and if someone were to come along and want to build one for Sirhan Sirhan i am sure there would be plenty of people in line making sure it didnt get put into a park

At one time, these people...ALL of these people were important in our history....at least to that local area....yes or no?

I just think we are throwing the baby out with the bath water....
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But would you support it. That is the question. You think we need these statues to preserve history. Isnt the history of timothy McVeigh being forgotten.


Just be consistent. If it's about preserving history should we preserve that history too.


Just because some statues were important to some racists ar some point does not make them.important now
 
Hypothetical said:
well at least that is consistent.

it should be done legally with a vote in the locality or by whoever owns it though.
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It should be done legally by elected officials. We dont vote on every traffic light
 
gdgyva said:
true that

human beings with flaws that made mistakes....but also incredible men that led this nation's birth

statues and memorials help celebrate those deeds....if you take them for what their intention is for

none of these men were perfect...most FAR from it

but they were a huge part of where we came from....and as i take my grand kids to a local exhibit, i can go through the history...good and bad that these men were part of....hiding from their mistakes is where we error...learning from them is the key
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The deeds of robert e lee was that he was a traitor to America and led a army to kill hundreds of thousands of Americans
 
They still an evil thing and killed many people. You don't idolise him. They should have a statue of MLK.
 
vegas giants said:
It should be done legally by elected officials. We dont vote on every traffic light
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that depends on the situation of the statue. and it should be up to the locality as to how the vote shall be taken.
 
Hypothetical said:
that depends on the situation of the statue. and it should be up to the locality as to how the vote shall be taken.
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We dont vote on everything. We elect politicians to do this
 
vegas giants said:
We dont vote on everything. We elect politicians to do this
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the locals have the power to petition for a public vote if they want to, and they have every right.

its up to every locality how they will decide to do it, is my point, not you.
 
Hypothetical said:
the locals have the power to petition for a public vote if they want to, and they have every right.

its up to every locality how they will decide to do it, is my point, not you.
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And they are free to do so. Until then this power rests with elected officials
 
vegas giants said:
The deeds of robert e lee was that he was a traitor to America and led a army to kill hundreds of thousands of Americans
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if literally that is all you could tell your kids/grand kids about Robert E Lee...i feel sorry for you

i really do
 
gdgyva said:
if literally that is all you could tell your kids/grand kids about Robert E Lee...i feel sorry for you

i really do
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If you do not tell your kids that lee was a traitor to America you are lying to them by ommission
 
vegas giants said:
If you do not tell your kids that lee was a traitor to America you are lying to them by ommission
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i can tell them he led the confederate army....and army that led an insurrection against the united states

i can tell them WHY the southern states tried to secede from the union....all of the story, not just the slavery part though that is the crux of the matter

and i can tell them he was a good and a bad man/leader in a LOT of ways....but it is UP TO THEM to figure out how he should be remembered.....not just listen to one source, but actually listen and read from many sources and make up their own minds

one of my all time favorite people/philosophers/journalists of all time was a guy named Paul Harvey

one of the things he is renown for is his "and now for the rest of the story" spots

I think too many Americans are afraid of the "rest of the story" for whatever reason

I think it needs to be told....not hidden away....we should never shy away from the truth no matter how hard it is to hear

our kids, and their kids always will always deserve THAT MUCH....nothing less

that is my point....and always has been my point in this debate
 
gdgyva said:
i can tell them he led the confederate army....and army that led an insurrection against the united states

i can tell them WHY the southern states tried to secede from the union....all of the story, not just the slavery part though that is the crux of the matter

and i can tell them he was a good and a bad man/leader in a LOT of ways....but it is UP TO THEM to figure out how he should be remembered.....not just listen to one source, but actually listen and read from many sources and make up their own minds

one of my all time favorite people/philosophers/journalists of all time was a guy named Paul Harvey

one of the things he is renown for is his "and now for the rest of the story" spots

I think too many Americans are afraid of the "rest of the story" for whatever reason

I think it needs to be told....not hidden away....we should never shy away from the truth no matter how hard it is to hear

our kids, and their kids always will always deserve THAT MUCH....nothing less

that is my point....and always has been my point in this debate
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Don't leave out that he was a traitor. That his actions led to killing hundreds of thousands of americans killed. That he fought on the side that wished to preserve slavery.


Because that is....the rest of the story.


When you tell them about hitler let them know he was great with dogs.
 
RaleBulgarian said:
We’ve already been through this ^^ pathetic dishonest argument of yours. The majority of Americans recognize the vileness of monuments to traitors and those who supported slavery, and want them removed.

Poll: Majority supports removing Confederate statues from public places
Fifty-two percent of voters said they support removing such statutes, while just 44 percent oppose removing them, according to a Quinnipiac University Poll survey released Wednesday.
Poll: Majority supports removing Confederate statues from public places | TheHill
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...still arguing on the same morals, that you continually show that you lack.

Let them keep their poll and let's see just where those numbers are in a few months. They'll most likely be right back to about where they were before, because the racial tensions caused by these rioting idiots will all be dried up and no one will really care once again.

I've heard this same "pathetic and dishonest argument of yours, far too many times to count at this point.

Now, be a dear and enjoy having your own rules used against you.
 
RaleBulgarian said:
You degrade yourself by continually lying and evading the core issue of monuments to traitors who supported slavery.
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I think that may be part of the problem. A lot of people it seems do not accept them as traitors in the traditional sense.
 
gdgyva said:
were statues MADE of those killers?

do you want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to commission a statue of one of them?

do you want to then go in front of a board of electors to ask to put your statue in a local park?

didnt think so.....

so stop with the rhetoric....
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Exactly!

Check when a lot of the statues being protested were erected. Someone did that. Recently.
 
Aberration said:
A lot of people it seems do not accept them as traitors in the traditional sense.
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Bingo. Just cause they fought for the Confederacy doesn't make them bad people.
 
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